It finally happened to me

Well I decided to try a different cam searching for a little more power in my 427, a Lunati 402A4LUN. Engine fired right up and took RPMS to 2000, checked timing, temp and coolant level and about 10 minutes into break in I could hear the lifters clattering more than normal so I shut it down for a check and sure enough the dam lobes for cylinders 7 & 8 started to go bad. This is not my first cam install (somewhere in the 20's), done enough to know the does and don'ts, used 15-40 Delo oil, pre lube engine prior to start up, used cam break in lube, springs are matched to cam, used lifters with the oil hole (Comp Cam) and so on. I sent the cam and lifters back to Summit Racing and after speaking with them on the phone they warrantied the cam and lifters. Only suggestion was to use the cam oil additive and maybe pull the inner valve springs out for break in.

Now after draining the oil I noticed a lot of metal I decided to pull the engine for inspection and sure enough the metal made it to the bearings so I will be replacing all of them.

I gave my old cam to my cheap brother for his 396 and the Isky cam is not in stock but they said they will make one up and drop ship it to me.

With the new cam I will be using Comp Cam break in oil additive, Valvoline 20-50 Racing oil and taking out the inner valve springs. Any other suggestions and really have to say thanks to Summit and Isky.

Even though it required extra work on your part, At least you got some satisfaction on warrantied items.

What exactly happens when cam lobes get wiped? I've heard of it but luckily never had it happen (knock on wood). I sort of understand that the lifters scrub the lobe off, is it lack of lubrication, or what happens exactly?

BTW, sorry for your engine problem bud.

Don

Sounds like ya did everything right ?????
I would suggest using the Valvoline VV851 20W50 , 2 cans of G.M. E05 and leave the inner valve springs off untill you have done your cam breakin for 30 minutes @ 2500 rpm,then go ahead and put the springs back on and run 500 miles before you change the oil. You can then go back to your regular valvoline 20w50 racing oil as that VV851 is a little pricey..... You didn't use the old lifters did ya ??? If you did thats probally why it failed...

Were the lifters easy to turn in the block? Some are tight, and don't turn, wiping out the cam in no time.

6 of the lobes were rounded to the rear of the cam. Yes the lifters were oiled on the sides and spun in the lifter bores, also the flat surface of the lifters had break in lube on them. Yes the lifters were new, I tried a set of Comp Cam lifters #CCA-800-16 they have an oil hole laser cut into the flat area to supply extra oil.

Don't know what causes it, if you ask cam supplier they say 99.9 percent cam failure is do to improper break in, others say poor cam.

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Originally Posted by SMOKSHO98926

6 of the lobes were rounded to the rear of the cam. Yes the lifters were oiled on the sides and spun in the lifter bores, also the flat surface of the lifters had break in lube on them. Yes the lifters were new, I tried a set of Comp Cam lifters #CCA-800-16 they have an oil hole laser cut into the flat area to supply extra oil.

Don't know what causes it, if you ask cam supplier they say 99.9 percent cam failure is do to improper break in, others say poor cam.

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There has been some discussion in another forum about the changes in oil formulation and that most, if not all the heavy metals (basically zinc compounds) have been removed as the new engines with steel camshafts and roller lifters don't need the same protection as the cast cams. Some of the Diesel oils have the zinc - i.e. Shell Rotella. You might best check if Valvoline racing oil has this additive.

Also, you might want to consider low poundage ("loose") valve springs and a less aggressive rocker arm for break in. Camshafts with a fast ramp are prone to wear fast without some good break in time.:eek:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

What exactly happens when cam lobes get wiped? I've heard of it but luckily never had it happen (knock on wood). I sort of understand that the lifters scrub the lobe off, is it lack of lubrication, or what happens exactly?

BTW, sorry for your engine problem bud.

Don

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Don, it is my understanding that the lifter crown goes first, then takes out the cam lobe. There is a ton of offshore lifters coming into the marketplace that are soft. See my following post.

Sounds like things were right on the setup. I do run in mine with a set of break in (light) valve springs, and a set of 1.3 rocker arms. It would, however, be a lot of expense for only an ocaasional cam change. I have these pieces left over from my days in and autotomotive machine shop. Heavy valve springs and high cam lift rates do put a lot of stress on the lobes of a new cam....

On this cam break in I tried the Chevron Delo 15-40 recommended by Car Craft, Hot Rod mag and numerous others because the ZDDP additive has not been reduced. I did some research and found that the Valvoline Racing oil has added ZDDP, yes it is a little spendy but maybe well worth it.

Does anybody know if Castrol HD30 has ZDDP in it? Now I am kinda worried about my cam failing, I haven't started the engine just yet.

Fellows, we are the victims of technology marching on. Oil formulations are being changed due to pressure from the OEM's and EPA. Zinc and phosphorus tend to coat O2 sensors and plug catalytic converters resulting in warranty claims as well as contributing to dirty exhaust emissions. The oil companies have no choice, they have to bow to pressure from the powers that be.

I don't see this as being any different than points-type ignitions. Kettering invented the system early in the last century and it endured for some 70 years. When it came time to clean up the environment, the OEM's switched to electronic ignition and we never looked back. Now we have moved to solid state ignition with a coil for each cylinder, controlled by computers. Same with carburetors. Electronic fuel injection is light years ahead of the old technology, contributes to vastly improved fuel mileage and much cleaner emissions.

The only cure-all that I see is a change to roller cams. The old flat tappet technology is just about dead, save for a few of us old die-hards.

For those of you who insist on using flat tappet cams (more than likely due to the cost of roller units), I will herein give my take on the best way to do it.

1. Start with a matched and coordinated set of parts from ONE SOURCE, buying the springs recommended by the cam grinder for your particular application and rpm limit. There is no point in using Gorilla springs in a street motor. You're just asking for it.

2. Discuss using armored lifters with the tech person at your favorite grinder. These have a stellite face on the lifter crown that will resist scuffing. By the way, I often read posts by those who are building motors that they made a great deal on a cam and lifter set. There is no such thing as a "great deal" on cam and lifters. Little do they know that this is junk made offshore and that they will be buying a new set of cam and lifters shortly, as well as spending a few days tearing the motor completely apart to clean out the shrapnel. Yep, it was a great deal though. You might want to buy a set of these with the "great deal" cam and lifters....
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/catego...?catcode=27006

3. Oil.... From what I've read, there are only a couple of oils left that will give protection to your new cam and lifters and even they are changing formulations as we speak. Crane Cams recommends Shell Rotella and an engine oil supplement containing extreme pressure lubricants such as General Motors EOS. The other oil that is touted by engine builders is 15-40 RPM Delo.
http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?...ellamulti.html
http://www.sdparts.com/product/10523...6ozBottle.aspx
I've used GM EOS on every rebuild I've done except one and I wiped a lobe on that motor. Another additive that has been mentioned is Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment. I've never used it, but it is said to have moly, boron, calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and zinc added to it. Sounds like a good multi-vitamin doesn't it. :)
http://www.valvoline.com/pages/produ...asp?product=21

4. Assemble your heads with old, used --STOCK-- springs. DO NOT ASSEMBLE WITH THE SPRINGS YOU WILL EVENTUALLY RUN. I keep an old set on the shelf just for running in a new motor, then change them out at the 30 mile mark. Manley makes a lever-type tool for this procedure, to be used with shop air to keep the valve seated. Don't have shop air?? Change them out at a buddies house or have the machine shop do it. What's that you say, you don't want the hassle of changing out the springs?? O.K., suffer the alternative then.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...48285_-1_10797
The other way is a set of reduced-ratio rocker arms for break-in. I've heard that Crower Cams makes some 1.2:1 for SBC and 1.5:1 for BBC, but am unable to find them in Crower's catalog. I suspect they would be high-buck roller units though, something that might be out of the reach of the home builder who only does one or two builds a year. Somebody need to step up and make some stamped steel rockers in a reduced ratio that would be affordable for everyone.

5. Checking for interference. Nothing will wipe a cam and lifters quicker than mechanical interference in the valvetrain. Check for piston to valve clearance, rocker arm to stud clearance at full lift, spring coil bind (stacking solid) and retainer to valve guide boss clearance at full lift. Also check for pushrod to guide clearance to insure they are not rubbing and binding. You might have one culprit that you didn't catch, such as a bent pushrod. Roll all pushrods on a piece of plate glass before assembly to insure straightness.
http://www.iskycams.com/camshaft.php

6. R. Pope brings an excellent point to the fore, tight lifter to bore fitment. I don't know about the rest of you, but I always oil the lifter bores and lifters when doing mock-up and drop them through the lifter bores. With the lifter bores vertical on the engine stand, the lifters should drop through and fall into your hand with oil on them. If they don't, hone the bores for another 0.001" of clearance. I'm told that the cam grinders are beginning to manufacture their lifters with a shorter radius on the crown to assist in lifter rotation. I'm recalling from memory and may be wrong, but I'm thinking that the traditional radius that has been used is 50". Maybe they're reducing that to 40" or 30". I'm just supposing and don't know for sure.

7. These suggestions are brought to you by John Callies of Callies Crankshaft fame.
a.visual inspect for tool chatter and mis-machining.
b.clean the shaft with mineral spirits and dry thoroughly.
c.use a hand held propane torch and heat the shaft to dispurse any moisture.
d.spray the cam with graphite.
e.use quality high pressure lube on cam lobes and lifter crowns (Molybdenum Disulfide black goop that comes with the cam and lifters).
f.select a quality lifter since the market is being saturated with off shore lifters that are soft.
g. make sure on startup the engine is ready to run at 2000 -2500 rpm for 20 minutes. ZERO IDLING FOR 20 MINUTES.

8. Make sure the motor is timed and use a known good carb or other induction system as well as ignition system. THE NEW CAM AND LIFTERS WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY GRINDING ON THE STARTER TO GET THE MOTOR FIRED. THEY ARE LUBED BY SPLASH OFF THE CRANK AT HIGHER ENGINE SPEEDS. HAVE EVERYTHING READY TO GO INCLUDING HAVING THE CARB PRIMED WITH FUEL.

9. Pre-oil the motor with a drill motor and oil pump primer tool such as this one from Jegs...
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...54806_-1_10455
Put a socket on the harmonic damper retaining bolt and rotate the motor through at least 2 full revolutions while priming.

10. At the end of your 20 minute break-in period, drop the oil and filter and change them out. Use another bottle of GM EOS in the oil. Drive the vehicle for 30 miles, altering the speed and letting the motor rev down from 60 mph to 20 mph with your foot off the gas pedal. Drop the oil and filter and repeat the EOS again. Change the valve springs. Drive for 500 miles and drop the oil and filter again.

I put 2 cans of EOS in mine for break-in and all went well soo far.
The roller cam is a better alternative to regular cam because of these issues stated,It just seems much better to start a new engine and idle it,roller cam,than to hope it fires right away and rev it to 2000 plus rpms and hope for the best on the cam,a roller simply will not fail under those circumstances that a regular cam will.
Is the 2 or 3 hundred dollars worth the gamble of go or blow?
A roller cam is a bargain compared to a re-do of the entire engine from the flat tappet cams metal particles in the oil.
It was about 130 bucks for a regular cam,about 200 for a roller ,thats 70 bucks.It was 109 for good lifters for a regular cam,its about the same for factory roller blocks and anywhere from3 to 4 hundred for retrofit roller lifters.
One would be money ahead to start out with a roller block rather than retro fit ones,considering a good block is about the price of a set of retro fit rollers.
I will never build a regular flat tappet cam motor again after watching a few intial starts of roller cam engines compared to flat tappets,i takes most of the worry out of initial firing of the engine and it is easy to pick up on any out of the normal sounds at idle and shut it down,rather than hearing very little at 2000 plus rpm and by the time you shut it down the damage is done at that rpm.
With a roller there is no need to get it to fire immediatly,theres no need for special oil,theres no need to worry at all,simply crank untill it fires and you are then ready to go ,without concern about the cam you cant see or the damage from metal particles,even a sucessful flat tappet cam break-in puts metal particles thru the entire engine anyway.
There is not much to worry about other than loose or not installed bolts on a roller cam engine upon intial fire,regular cam intial fire is a nerve racking thing at best when you consider your only choice is go or blow,snort it to 2000 plus rpm and hope for the best with a regular cam,fire it up and wait and see if the engine survives or dies,not a good thing to look forward to on a engine build.A much better alternative is to start the engine and know in the first few seconds if its gunna live,not snort it to 2000 rpm and worry the entire time if it worked,with a roller cam there is no hope or wonder its just going to work ,end of story,regular flat tappets are broke in on hope and fear.
I will admit the chance and worry of failure made the successful cam break-in seem like a much greater accomplishment than it actually was:LOL: ,considering the cam should do that anyway,with a roller it just works and thats how it should be,not a hope that it works or does not fail.

well the fix is a roller cam ..some say oil? no i have seen them go out with every thing done right you can go with the Edm burned lifters.or try to get the johnson hard face lifters . some big blocks have the lifter bores not in the right spot to make the lifters turn with hi spring pressure this will not help .you can run it with out the inners .i have built big blocks for many years i will not run a flat lifter can in one . after a new cam lifters wash out rehone crank polishing all new bearings cam. rod. mains .and if bad pick out the iron in the piston skirts . you cam easly do a roller cam .i just see it happen to many times .i bulid and sell trouble free big blocks they all have hyd or soild roller cams in them

Interesting thread on another forum about oil....
http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=17345.0

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Originally Posted by shawnlee28

Is the 2 or 3 hundred dollars worth the gamble of go or blow?
A roller cam is a bargain compared to a re-do of the entire engine from the flat tappet cams metal particles in the oil.
It was about 130 bucks for a regular cam,about 200 for a roller ,thats 70 bucks.It was 109 for good lifters for a regular cam,its about the same for factory roller blocks and anywhere from3 to 4 hundred for retrofit roller lifters.
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I think your a little off in your #'s. for example on a 454 chevy motor:

Lunati VooDoo hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifter kit from summit: $179.

Crane Hydraulic roller cam: $ 280.
crane hydraulic roller lifters:$ 440.

total is $720 for the hydraulic roller compared ot he $179 flat tappet so a $531 difference is quite large not to mention the push rods are gonna be more expensive for the Roller unit having to be longer i fI remeber correctly. Id agree with your a flat tappet cam is not worth chancing if it was truely only a $200 difference. Even if you call up Competition products and question both cams they will tell you how a roller set up...especially hydraulic roller on a BB motor traditionally when all is said and done costs 600-800 more than flat tappet hydraulic. for the budget minded kid getting into hod rods and building his first motor and Roller is a hefty Part price wise IMO.

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the budget minded kid getting into hod rods and building his first motor and Roller is a hefty Part price wise IMO.

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But it's cheaper than a new motor. I've done many cams, and never wiped one - but that was back when we were less "environmentally friendly" with our lubricants. I won't ever build another flat tappet motor.