I am interested in knowing if anyone has used these heads and if they are anygood ?
Thanks, Wes
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I am interested in knowing if anyone has used these heads and if they are anygood ?
Thanks, Wes
Wes,Quote:
Originally Posted by 70chevybb
Not a BBC, but I had my engine done bySehr Performance Machine Engine Rebuilding Specialists and Scott likes the ProComp heads because they have a lot of meat to allow him to bowl port the chambers as he likes to do. However, he buys the bare heads, and then builds them up with quality valves, springs, retainers & rockers as opposed to buying complete units from ProComp. Not sure I would buy complete heads from them.
Hey Wes-with all the head companies out there,a direct answer is when you price shop and then expect to get something for nothing,this situation isn't any different than anything else you buy where you get what you pay for.
One certain fact is the lower dollar head companies DO NOT have the R&D programs that you pay of in the price in the bigger brand name companies.
The days of a neanderthal caveman with a die grinder thinking he can match yrs of flow-bench research and CNC porting is just a silly notion.For one thing to match port to port and let alone head is head with a die grinder the percentage isn't in favor of hand porting.
If you choose a BBC,you should do so understanding and accepting the heads are going to cost you alot more than a SBC.
C'mon now Gary, so you're calling a guy who makes his living building custom, high horsepower, high efficiency engines that hold several NHRA and Sprint Car records and has engines running Bonneville a "neanderthal (your spelling) caveman with a die grinder"? Geesh, I gotta say you've got some nerve. :rolleyes:
there is things about the head i do not like .port size will not match any thing out of the box . head chamber will only seal with a 4.625 fire ring head gasket not to big of a deal were your useing a 4.600 bore bbc but i would never use them heads on any thing that big of bore the 396-496 so with a 4.125to 4.310 .that chamber is to far off . them two things stop me . there are many heads i can get and for the price i can get them for i have a very hard time wanting to spend added time on a sub quality part making it work when there is stuff out of the box that fits better
Just the messenger Roger.I wish I could find the series of articles from the trades magazine Engines builder and how advanced porting has gotten,but some guys haven't.Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
We have had our share of national and regional wins.Surely you don't think I am guessing...........Hell all total I got what 50 yrs in drag racing and it's about time it is accepted.So it sounds like a duck and smells like a duck,well it's a duck.
BTW-I posted at the same time or alittle after you Roger.So I didn't know what you said until afterwards.What gets me going is all those guys that with some head manufactures guy's who think they are getting "A Deal" and how much B.S. that really is.We campaign a RED and a 9.90 car that we built and on any given day I dare say we could and do win.
i deal with alot of dart heads for customers there is no free lunch on heads most of the big power guys we are useing Pro 1 cnc heads and there as good heads out there as darts RMS .Profile. AFR . are the makers that i would use if not for me getting the darts as i like money staying in MI or at least the USA. if i can ...as a engine builder i under stand the fact that there much cheaper heads and many guys want THE LOOK i given much thought of building a 496 crate engine with all the lower dollar stuff were the rub comes in as alot of the stuff is not worth the time getting it to fit
I'm sorry, Gary, but I'm not foolish enough to believe that you posted almost 15 minutes later and did not read the post. One or two minutes, maybe, but thirteen's a stretch. Regardless, it's not worth the time taken to type, so we'll call it done and gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gary
Wes, you can trust what Pat McCarthy says 100%, especially anything having to do with a BBC. In fact, you'd be well advised to call him and see what he can do for you on a set of built out heads. He knows of what he speaks, and that's a fact.
Honestly I am just shaking my head.You guys treat this like some sort of high school popularity contest.Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
I have spoken to Pat on the phone and I do indorse his advise as well.
One thing that you should take into account,is what I said.Most street driven cars don't know with a given choice they made is what they are missing.Well those that don't use a chassis dyno or on a given cruise night run into a guy who has matched everything up making you wonder why you don't run as good.
We have for many yrs in our parts business supplied god knows how many customers.
Roger-don't even think about calling me a lie'er.I didn't see you post until after mine.Remember me saying how the stroke I had effected my left hand slowing down my typing??.Well that is what happened and a fact.
I wouldn't use them---mostly we use Dart and also some afr heads--they been in the racing and head business for years(ever since the rules were changed to where you didn't have to use a factory head)(in fact, Dart and AFR are probably the reasons the rules got changed)
These guys have been in racing from day 1 and all the BS has been engineered out of there product---It isn't done because of cheaper imported castings, a random cnc machine or the offshoot of a family business that manufactures something else---
Yeah, what Pat and Jerry said! If you're looking for an out of the box performance head, I don't think Pro Comp would be my choice. They're cheap, but other then that they don't really have a lot going for them unless you're looking for a bare casting to turn over to a good cylinder head shop and have built for your engine.
Yepper Pat,Jerry,Dave and I all agree.:HMMM::LOL:
I did not want to start a problem thread. I am restoring a 70 chevy 2wd truck. I am building this as a daily driver. I will be putting in a 402 .030 over with .180 dome pistons and possibly cast iron 116 c.c.(Ithink) chamber heads. I am going to use edelbrock performer rpm cam, intake and carb with a 700r4 and 3.73 gear. I just want a really goog running truck. I just thought the aluminum heads might be worth the money. I do know you get what you pay for. I have a set of 272292 casting heads I was going to use. Can anyone tell me what c.c. the chambers are?
Thanks, Wes
Wes-it's all good bud.N/P.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Wes,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Sorry the thread got off course, but if you read around the extra BS I think everyone here has said pretty much the same thing, just with more or less enthusiasm. The common thought is that there are several choices out there that are a better value (most true bang for the buck), but no one would buy their out of the box heads, ready to run. The guy who built my engine uses them because he's willing to invest the time and energy into making them right, he's learned what needs to be done to them and he stands behind his builds 100%. I also trust what Pat says, "..there's no free lunch on heads, and most of the big power guys are using Pro 1 cnc heads..." when you buy from the name US suppliers.
Bottom line, the heads you choose need to be coordinated close with your overall build, and going bargain basement is probably not the best value. All the rest is really not important. Knowing what I know today, I would probably have sprung for the extra cost to go with a DART or AFR head vs the ProComp, but I still trust my guy's choice. Hope your build goes smooth, and that you find 20 extra horses that you did not expect.
This is what the lower dollar sources don't have or can't afford.The process of CAD/CNC porting is key:
CNC
And a example of the wrong way to go about it:
Porting For Performance The Science of Horsepower: Engine Builder
The research on who is doing the process the right way is apart of the purchase of heads for the street as much as it is for a race car.There are companies that are low dollar heads that advertize CNC porting that are not backed with the yrs of R&D.The name brand companies like Dart,World,RHS,as examples are established brand names the certainly have competed on the basis of what they have developed in their R&D programs.Do read the second link at least.It is a interesting informative read.
I am saying those R&D programs impact how the heads are cast.
It would probably be better to simply let this thread die, but I read through both of the articles above and it seems to me that there's a misunderstanding of the process, saying that a CNC produced head is "superior". CNC, by definition is a "computer numerical control" machine, and those for complex milling operations are generally 5-axis machines. Their strength is that once programmed they can churn out very precise copies of the same item, within the tolerance capabilities of the particular machine. They are used to mass produce items, where the unit cost can offset the investment that is required to develop the program. To be sure, the product is only as good as the program driving the cutters, in this case for cylinder heads. The key here is the question, "How is that program developed?" I would suggest to you that it is not some R&D engineer or computer designer in a CAD program, but instead is an experienced cylinder head machinist that ports and polishes a head, flow tests it on the bench to verify his result, and continues to iterate this process until he has the performance he's chasing. Once there the CNC guy pours over the "master head" taking measurements and storing the data to program the machine to duplicate the design. Bottom line, "the CNC produced ports are only as good or as bad as the man who did the original that was used to write the program" (thanks for the words, buddy, and you know who you are).
My point is that the guy who turns out one-off, custom ported heads that are flow benched to equalize the ports and milled/polished using only his experience and knowlege may well be better (for that specific engine) than an out of the box set of CNC produced heads. Read the article by Larry Carley - he says it himself,and further,Quote:
There are two ways to port and match cylinder heads: the right way and the wrong way. The right way is to refine the flow characteristics of the head and manifold so as much air as possible enters the cylinders at the engine’s peak power curve. Every engine is different so there’s no "standard" port configuration that is guaranteed to deliver maximum airflow on every application. The port profile that works best will be limited by the physical dimensions of the cylinder head.
The way I see it a fellow looking for a good, out of the box set of heads is going to be better off buying the proven name brand, be it AFR, DART or another, but even those heads can be made to give him more power by being tweaked by a guy who knows what his doing for the specific engine they're going on. Bottom line, the guy who has years of experience porting & polishing and thousands of hours of flow bench time is by no means a neanderthal, and the only way they could justify having a CNC machine is if they're going into the crate engine business cranking out multiples of the same design for the the market. The CNC machine is nothing without a program, and the program needs that guy with the bowl mill. The guy doing the one-off engines that go into record setting machines is an artist, pure & simple. Just my thoughts, and I'm done.Quote:
Porting can unleash hidden horsepower by increasing airflow — but it requires know-how, a flow bench and special tools to successfully pull it off.
Roger of course the program matters.For one thing I think it matters in being able to duplicate the same thing from port to post let alone head to head.And what goes hand and fist with that R&D is a better known brand name companies that can afford it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
The program also can simulate air flow without cutting a master.Then run the program for a given result.And mod and change the program to see what the end result is.
These CAD/CNC programs that impact the end product is light yrs away from a hand die grinder Roger.
So Roger I still consider you as a friend even through we disagree on these points.I am asking you to stop being so defensive about your friend/shop and open up to the advances the high performance industry has to offer.
BTW-Roger I still think you buy cheap and pay long to try to get the product to work as the little better product does and still don't get there.Roger trust me we have spent yrs working on a combo that wins and that has never,never ended..........;)
I believe that you need to study the CNC process a bit more, Gary, and in fact read the articles that you posted, paying attention to the details of how the CNC process is supported. With that said, you will not hear from me again on this thread or this subject. I'm done.
There's really nothing "cutting edge" about a CNC'd head.... All the CNC controlled cutter does it duplicate an original head that was done by someone with a flow bench, a dyno, and some race time.... The individually done heads by the porting guru's are the state of the art heads with port and chamber work that will probably never make it to a CNC program!!!! The hours and hours with the grinder, polisher, and the flow bench are were the really top of the line, state of the art heads come from, not from a CNC machine......
I've stayed out of this but I'll offer my 2 cents now "Just Because". CNC is first and foremost a tool for churning out multiple items needing to be "exactly" the same over and over! Add an autoloader and it'll just go and go until an operator tells it to stop! In the vast majority of shops I see, the "operator" is some young man who may not know his knee from his elbow and usually a shop foreman. Then add in tool bit wear and any number of factors as small as temperature differential and what was once "perfect" soon isn't! But it is Usually within tolerance. If the CNC unit doesn't have an autoloader, then someone has to insert the billet material and then zero the machine, and this adds another degree of misalignment.
I offer the above only to say it's an imperfect world! both methods are only as good as the people (company) behind the product. Heck, Carroll Shelby put his name on some terrible pieces! But, he had/has the name so they commanded top dollars! But you can probably make more power using someone elses parts.
I've been thinking of buying/building a stroker SBF and want to use aluminum heads, although I've been eyeing some Ford Motorsports! LOL...
Forgive my senior moment.I don't remember his name,but I did talk to the guy who is the head of Dart and he explained the hrs of hand work it took to port heads from Yrs ago.That the duplication by hand head to head or port to port was in the range of 20 to 25 %.Since the development of the CAD programs and CNC 5 position porting duplication was in the range of 3 to 5% and a set of heads took 8 hrs to do.He made a point of that percentage saying it could never be done by hand.To imply that work or QC is flawed I do think is misguided.3 to 5% is a very tight spec to hold.
In our history of yrs going to the drag racers auction at Indy we got the benefit of getting to know these guys afterwards at dinner over the three day event because we where one of the top purchasers of blem sell offs.
Sadly one thing about porting is not knowing what you could have had if done correctly.One link does speak to that about the removal of too much material and that is kind of my point why having each port matched exactly the same is so important.
You know the best surgical hands do from time to time need to add a stitch.:rolleyes::LOL:
It all comes down to if your selling or buying
if your running on the street, bracket racing (any index class) or actually racing all out--going as fast as you can and having to beat others going as fast as they can---
We have sold lots of cnc heads---I've never run a ste myself and will never let someone have a set of my heads to copy---
GOOD porters verify their results with a flow bench....why do you always want to leave that part out??? Hand porting verified by testing on a flow bench, engine runs on a dyno, and actual track testing is where the information to write the CNC programs comes from!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
absolutely correct, Jerry!!!! When you get a set of CNC'd heads, I'll guarantee you that your are not getting the best that the porter turned out!!!!!!!
The last set of heads I got for my racer were dart 9*(maybe 11*) raw castings with just the chambers cnc machined----At least it beat having to weld on them for 30 hours like we used to do--
:LOL:OK guys you have a favorite ax and I got a chain saw.Well ya can lead a horse to water but.................:rolleyes:
I tell ya about duplications issues doing it by hand,I give ya percentages doing it by hand,I tell you NO the programs have simulations where they are computer generated for air flows,I give you a source from where the info came from,and yet you ignore all that and still ..........................
Jerry-our 7.90 deal if allowed to run out the back door would likely be 7.50's or 7.40's.
Well, gee whiz!!!! Now we find out that all you would have had to do is get a set of them store bought CNC'd heads and you would have run faster!!!!! Some guy on the internet said so, so it must be the truth, right?????????????:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Hey Dave.We're just trying to figure a way to get ya off the couch faster so ya get some of that backlog work done so ya get to get the 57 done.:whacked::rolleyes::LOL::LOL::LOL:
If allowed to run out the back door---now your starting to realize what I'm sayin-----to run faster than anyone else,you run it out the back door---sorry, but I never did any of that index type stuff---
Yeah Jerry-we do run faster than anyone else.......it just where it happens.LOL
It's sad these fan club "likes". Really kind of childishness.
Kind of forced to run a breakout class or brackets these days to race locally... Not enough money to go run a Pro Class, so if we want to race around here breakout's and indexes are the only game in town... Sure is fun to get in a grudge race or the occasional heads up gambler's race once in awhile. If it was all "run what ya brung, and hope ya brung enough" I'm afraid it'd just come down to the biggest checkbook wins...Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Oh yeah, and still fun to occasionally go out and play on a Saturday night---no tech lines, no scales, no breakouts---just look out for the cops!!!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL:
I know I said I was done, but I just gotta ask. Exactly who is "We", Gary?? You keep mentioning this mysterious partner, and that you've run faster than everyone else for the last 50 years, but it seems it's just been words? Can you post some pictures of the cars, or load up your gallery? Do I recall you mentioned owning or being "partners" in a top fuel rail? Can we see it? What's the car you're bracket racing now? Can we see it? Pleeeeeeze, Gary??? Just sayin', a picture's worth a thousand words, and we're a bunch of pictures shy.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gary
I already did once in violation of my partnership agreement.
Really?? :confused: You did that here on CHR??:confused: Golly, I don't recall that, but if you say so I'm sure it's true. ;) Must have been when I was on vacation or something. OK, guess we'll just have to believe everything's on the up and up... :o So can you maybe post some records showing your name on a track web site, or maybe at NHRA.com? Anything that does not violate your confidentiality agreement?? Probably not, huh? Those confidentiality agreements can be a bitch!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gary
Boys, if you can't play nice I'll put you both in a time out for the evening so you can calm down.
I won't give another warning. :mad:
Walk away from this thread.
Bill S.