Build help for small journal 327

So I want to build a small journal 327, its got stock steel crank, stock rods with flat tops. Not sure on the pistons in it, they have a big gap just under the oil ring about the size of the oil ring. So the skirt is not attached to the ring section of the piston except on each side by the rod pin bushing. If it does not need boring will these piston work ok and whats the max Compression I could get with these flat tops with small cc heads (?). Or should I bore it and put new pistons to get to a higher compression ratio. Would like to get 400 nto 450 HP out of it but want to be sure its going to hold up to that. Anybody have any recipes for building this motor?

Pistons? Cam? solid or hyd? Heads? Rods????????????????????????????

It seems like every couple of weeks this question comes up.
First let me say that your expectations of 400 to 450 hp out of a 327 are not practical, not naturally aspirated anyway. Making power is a function of moving air through the motor, the more air you move, the more power you make. The smaller the motor is, the higher you have to rev it to move the air through it. For instance, a 350 bored and stroked to 383 will move 665 cfm at 6,000 rpm's at 100% efficiency. To move the same amount of air through a 327, you'd have to rev it to just over 7,000 rpm's. Now, here's the kicker. In order to make power up to 7,000, you'll need more cam and more compression ratio than you would with the 383 and once you start that, you're moving away from a street motor and into the realm of a race motor. You see, any cam you install in the motor will have an operating range of about 3,500 rpm's. In other words, it will make power from 1,000 to 4,500 rpm's or 1,500 to 5,000 or 2,000 to 5,500 or 2,500 to 6,000 or 3,000 to 6,500 or 3,500 to 7,000 or 4,000 to 7,500, etc., etc. So you see, in order to make power to 7,000 or 7,500 like you'll need to do with a 327, you'll have to give up power in the lower rpm ranges where you need it to be a street motor. Now, if you are only going to race the car, then o.k., no problem. If you will drive it on the street, then you will need steep rear gears and a 5 or 6 speed trans or if running an auto, you'll need a very loose converter and that sometimes is a pain in the ass because the converter won't lock up and will build tremendous heat when driving around town, etc., etc.

I'll let you digest what I've said here and get back to me with any questions you may have before I continue. Yeah, I have a whole lot more to say depending on what you come up with.

I will only drive the car once and a while, maybe 1,000 miles a year. Not worried about being a street motor, I usually stay on the local roads at 50 to 60 MPH. So I was thinking 11:1 or as high as I could go with ported big valve heads and a decent solid cam. Going with a T400 trans with I don't know maybe 2000 stall???(or I have some powerglides i could use) and 4:11 gears. I am curious on the heads I see 195 cc runners up to 215 or so, is that the amount of porting in the runner? how big of a head can be run on this set up? I was comparing my expectations to the stock 327 that made 365 HP or whatever the HP was on that motor, or was that motor already pushed to the limit? Seems I could built it a little better than that one and at least get to 400HP?

How much money do you have to spend? Are aluminum heads in your budget? Is a supercharger or turbo in your budget? Forged pistons? Good rods?

The 365 was a max effort from the 327 and was an 11:1 motor with a very long cam.

Don't need the thing running for about a year or so, i'll be rebuilding my shop and other projects along the way, not looking at a budget i was going to spread it out over some time get the block work done now and maybe next month buy some rods, maybe two months after that buy a cam setup few months after that buy an intake and carb and so on and so on. Money was one concern on heads I see them fro 1,000 up 1,800, i know I at least need some for $1,000 and would not mind spending an extra 800 if it would help. Heads and trans build would be my last two things to buy before completing it. Still need a little work done to the car before putting the motor in it (68 camaro). I actually have a source to get some turbos but am not impressed with my buddies luck with his twin turbo350 as far as maintanence goes. He had his first set and damaged one of the impellers, he said I could have the other single or both and rebuild the second one but I think I better keep it to non forced induction.

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Originally Posted by chevydrivin

So I want to build a small journal 327, its got stock steel crank, stock rods with flat tops. Not sure on the pistons in it, they have a big gap just under the oil ring about the size of the oil ring. So the skirt is not attached to the ring section of the piston except on each side by the rod pin bushing. If it does not need boring will these piston work ok and whats the max Compression I could get with these flat tops with small cc heads (?). Or should I bore it and put new pistons to get to a higher compression ratio. Would like to get 400 nto 450 HP out of it but want to be sure its going to hold up to that. Anybody have any recipes for building this motor?

Pistons? Cam? solid or hyd? Heads? Rods????????????????????????????

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If you have not started on the project yet I would consider building a 383 instead.
First it will make more torque so you don't need a steep gear or a really loose stall.
You could build a mild 383 with flat top pistons, good heads and a cam not much larger than a rv cam say 230 at .050 and make 400 hp on pump gas.

Thats what everybody says.... Build a 383 build a 383. I can't see building a 383 when I already have a good 327 block with a good steel crank. Besides that won't the 327 turn a higher RPM than the 383? Just my thoughts, I would rather have a 400 hp 327 rather than a 400 hp 383. Anybody can get 400 hp out of a 383 like you said its easy, flat tops rv cam................
I do appreciate all the info but I am pretty much set on building the 327 rather than anything else, just wanted some input on if it will hold up to what I am wanting to do with it.
Fact is I want a loose stall and a steep gear.

Yep you probably will get 400 HP out of a 327. But at what rpm ? Higher up the rev range. So to put it roughly, you will make 400 with a 327 but you will use more fuel than a 383. Why ? because just by the size of the 383 stroke 3.75 " they produce their power by torque, down in the low revs. But still a high reving 327 sounds great. It's all up to your personal choice. I am building two radically different motors one is a 383 the other is a 302, both chevys, both share the 4.00 " bore. The 383 is to have fun with, the 302 is a resto and I happen to like high rpm shift changes and the car it is in only goes out on a fine weekend when finished.

PS why not a 350 ? Build them all the time for people, good motor, great motor, but I like experimenting with something else

"I think I better keep it to non forced induction."

O.K., then it's going to have to be some good heads, 11.0:1 minimum c.r. and a long non-hydraulic cam. You'll have to run a tight squish to facilitate pump gas.

My recipe for such a beast might go something like this.....

Magnaflux and bore the block 0.030" to 4.030", cut for zero deck
Magnaflux crank, grind to next undersize if non-concentric, micro-polish
Eagle rods, I-beam, bushed for full float (H-beam preferred, but expensive)
SRP forged pistons, pop-up, part #147752, 11.4:1 c.r. with 68 cc heads
7 qt. oil pan, high volume pump, windage tray, crank scraper
Air Flow Research 195 heads, 68 cc combustion chambers, chambers altered by AFR to accept SRP piston pop-ups.
Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap intake. There are those who would argue that a Torker II would be a better choice and they may be right. The increased volume that each cylinder would see would help to cushion out the reversion that you will experience with a cam of this size. A Victor Jr. would be too large for this motor in my opinion.
Holley 0-4779 750 cfm carb.
Fel-Pro 1003 head gaskets, 0.040" squish with zero deck
Fel-Pro 1205 intake gaskets
Fel-Pro 1404 exhaust gaskets
Isky Z35 solid lifter flat tappet cam, duration 288 @ advertised, 254 @ 0.050" tappet lift, 0.525" valve lift, ground on 108 degree lobe centers. Will rev to 7,500 with Isky engineered kit (highly recommended).
Roller rockers
1 3/4" equal length headers into 3" collector, reduced to 2 1/2" pipes to the back. Mufflers of your choice.
Cold outside air to carb. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW THIS MOTOR TO BREATHE UNDERHOOD AIR.
HEI distributor recurved by Performance Distributors, Memphis Tennessee. 12 degrees initial, 24 degrees mechanical advance.
T5 5-spd rebuilt by G-Force for 600 ft.lbs. torque, 4.10 to 4.88 rear gears
Pedal to the metal and side-step the clutch, shift at 7,200

Are ya grinnin' yet?

Installation instructions for AFR heads....
http://www.airflowresearch.com/sbc_install.php

Exactly the kind of info I am looking for. So the 195 heads are big enough? Are the other ported heads to big? And you think the small journal block will handle it all?

AFR 195 heads will support 500 horsepower in a 383 @ 5,500 rpm's. (610 cfm @ 100 % efficiency). A 327 turning 6,440 rpm's passes 610 cfm @ 100 % efficiency. Is there any reason not to think the 327 would make the same power?

You do raise a good point about the block. I forgot about the main caps. It seems like I've read that they're good to about 400 horsepower or maybe a little better, so a change to Milodon 4-bolt caps in the three center positions would be real good insurance.

Hey, who knows, I might be full of hooey. Some of you other guys should jump in here and play the devil's advocate for me.....

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Originally Posted by DennyW

In 1965 they had a 327 with 365 HP, unless it was fuel injected, then it had 375 HP.

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The 375hp/327 was first introduced in '64 in Vettes with FI. The cam was the Duntov 30/30 and Isky came out with a comparable grind. I still have an Isky 30/30 and it will make power to 6000 plus. I've wound it a little tighter than that ,but it's hell on valve springs.
Summit carries the Isky version part # ISK-200030.

And balance everything to within a knats wing on weight!!! Little inch motors will make power but you have to zing them. A quality balance job is critical to longevity on them.... As NTF said, engines are a bit tough on valve springs when they run high (6500 and up) RPM, so plan on some extra maintenance keeping an eye on valve spring tension. Solid lifters seem to cause higher wear rates on the springs then hydraulic cams, roller cams with the radical ramps slam the valves even harder so the valve springs tend to lose tension and or break more frequently. Valve clearance is critical for perfomance and longevity also, follow the cam makers recomendation and check them frequently.... Oh yeah, run a rev limiter for insurance on missed shifts....

how 'bout ceramic coated pistons and heads, and put it on the juice?
( nitrous )

I like TechInspector's build recommendations. Pay close attention to the fact that he recommends a manual transmission. That 327 is going to build high rpm torque and hp at the expense of bottom end grunt. You would be very unhappy with an automatic tranny behind this combination. There will not be enough bottom end torque to launch it properly, even with a high stall converter.

Yeah ,but I hear the 327 motor was one of the best motors made by chevy,they just never mentioned what it was best at....taking more money to get hp or the best money maker for after markett parts manufactures.I know its a legend motor,...but like with most legends the bigger the legend gets ,the less the real life version impresses.I am sure when it was the new kid on the block it held its own and the fact that the corvette had one makes the legend part even worse.Keep in mind most of the 327 legends you hear about were highly modified engines that required continous matenence and were no fun other than racing and these guys spent major dollar makin em that way.The only thing different on these motors ,from a regular engine with aftermarkett parts is the stories and legends .Nothing wrong with a 327 and I like em too ,but just beware of all the legends and stories,when you boil it down to fact ,its just another engine that was.The 5.0 ford engines from the mustangs has almost takin on that same legend status,sure its a good engine ,but the stories make it larger than life.If you can feel good about just sayin it has a 327 or 5.0 and not quote hp or dyno numbers then this motor is for you.If you are looking to quote hp and dyno numbers ,then this engine is not going to make you or your wallet happy.

I know it will take some money to get it where i want it, I have no problem with that. I know it has to be built with the right parts too. back in school my 66 C10 had a 400 and I raced a guy that had a worn out 350 and beat him by a few links. This 350 was shot, it smoked and the oil gauge had 0 psi at idle. Any way he built him a new 327 with power pack heads and all and was ready to race again. I beat him by about 10 links with his new 327.

Another case though is a guy had a 427 with 2X4 bbls in a 66 impala. this thing was the fastest car around, I didn't even bother wasting my time racing him. But last I heard he was building a 327 to replace the 427 and was going to be faster than his 427.

If I build it and put the T400 behind it and don't like it, I can just pull it out and put it in my 55 210. It has a 4 speed in it. Put my 55's 283 on the shelf and build one of the two 400's I have to put back in the 68.

if you want to build your 327 the way you described message me i can give you some secrets and details and yes its not that hard to do. its jsut alot of people have been 350ized.

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Originally Posted by chevydrivin

Another case though is a guy had a 427 with 2X4 bbls in a 66 impala. this thing was the fastest car around, I didn't even bother wasting my time racing him. But last I heard he was building a 327 to replace the 427 and was going to be faster than his 427..

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Something tells me you were listening to a bench racing bull sh*tter. (Unless of course it has twin turbos and nitrous. Highly unlikely.)

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Originally Posted by gassersrule_196

if you want to build your 327 the way you described message me i can give you some secrets and details and yes its not that hard to do. its jsut alot of people have been 350ized.

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Buiding a 327 is no different than any other sbc.
Make sure you have the correct rod,main, bearing clearance rod side to side along with crank thrust clearance.
Do the normal block and oiling prep and it should live.
The only difference is you will have to spin it tighter than a 350 or 383 to do the same job.

yes boys and girls the 350 is the only motor ever capable of making any practical power by genral motors:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :whacked: :whacked: **)

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Originally Posted by gassersrule_196

yes boys and girls the 350 is the only motor ever capable of making any practical power by genral motors:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :whacked: :whacked: **)

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Scooter, your sarcasm is showing. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

350's rule???????????????????????????????

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Originally Posted by chevydrivin

350's rule???????????????????????????????

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Depends upon who you talk to.

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Originally Posted by rumrumm

Something tells me you were listening to a bench racing bull sh*tter. (Unless of course it has twin turbos and nitrous. Highly unlikely.)

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here is an example of "small block power"

1991,92 and 93 Camaros in the SCCA Trans AM championship had:

4.055 bore and 3 inch stroke, thats a 310 ci
that made over 600 HP with an engine speed of 8,000 rpm
Fully ported 42 cc bowtie heads, 13.5:1 CR

Now before you say it, I know it takes "more money to get you there than a 350" but I am just making the point that it is possable.

That was my point ,anything is possible,but unless you want the glory of a 327 and not the glory of hp,then at the end of the day and money spent,the only glory the 327 has is in its history.I will show ya how it works,if you have engine thats 369 1/5 cubic inches and you go out to the local parkin lot and pull the front tires off the ground by simply punchin it down to the floor and stop to let the kids on there bicycles look at it and tell em thats got a 369 1/5 in it and then they hear more STORIES about one of these engines ,then the hot motor when they grow up will be the 369 1/5 motors.Heres some more,the one that pulled the tires off the ground was some ones race car that had 20 grand in the motor,now to those kids ,all 369 1/5 motors are that powerful,see where I am goin?Now picture the biggest motor being a 269 ci and all of a sudden theres a new kid on the block the ""327"" everyone will tell how this is the biggest motor around and all the hotrodders will flock to get it and have the most cubic inches ,now take the fact of when these stories started,around that time,and the fact it was the newest biggest baddest thing since sliced bread.These hot rodders soon found the 350 the 396 the 427 and so new stories stopped being told of the 327 and its lack of power compared to the newer larger motors ,instead of telling new stories of how little power the 327 had compared to the 427 ,which anyone who saw or drove a 427 already knew,they told new stories of 350s and 396s.so the only remaining stories of the 327 are the glory stories.The stories are all thats left of the 327 glory ,other than actually having a 327 for the glory of the 327,the new glory is the fuel injected forced induction engines.4 ,5 or 600 hp daily drivers that get 20-30 mpg and run for 100 to 150,000 miles.
:D

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Originally Posted by gassersrule_196

yes boys and girls the 350 is the only motor ever capable of making any practical power by genral motors:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :whacked: :whacked: **)

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Some of us just got tired of having to run the valves every 10 or so pass's turning the engine to 9,000+ rpm's,having to change valve springs every month.
My 496 with a hyd roller cam, Dart heads, flat top pistons makes more hp and torque on pump gas than any of the 327's I ever owned and I don't have to work on it all the time and it is nothing that special.
Small cube engines are great if you like to work on something in your spare time.
BIGGER, BETTER,=FASTER. How's that for being sarcastic??L.O.L.

I said "the right parts"

This goes for the valve springs too, the right spring will not have to be set or replaced that often.

After viewing all the post you guys have convenced me to take all my small block stuff to the scrap yard. I will start tomorrow looking for some good Big block stuff. Maybe I can find some stuff out there...........just maybe..........and I can build it stock and beat all the small block guys around ...........................because I will have more torque than them and I won't have to work on it as much.
I can't wait.

Theres nuthing wrong with the small block ,I have a 305 in my project,...but I do not plan on any races and I did not do it to be fast.I chose this engine simply to propel the truck and sound like a v-8.I have no intentions on it being fast or historically correct ,just propulsion.If I were to want speed and power ,I would have put a big block ford in it.:)

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Originally Posted by chevydrivin

I said "the right parts"

This goes for the valve springs too, the right spring will not have to be set or replaced that often.

After viewing all the post you guys have convenced me to take all my small block stuff to the scrap yard. I will start tomorrow looking for some good Big block stuff. Maybe I can find some stuff out there...........just maybe..........and I can build it stock and beat all the small block guys around ...........................because I will have more torque than them and I won't have to work on it as much.
I can't wait.

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Part's have come a long way over the years.
In the IMCA mod. our springs are replaced every 20 race's.
They don't break they just loose their tension.
Valve springs are cheap compared to the pistons.

I think you should go ahead and build your 450 hp 327 and go out and have fun. Obviously it is what you want and you would not seem happy with anything else. More power to ya!

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo??? it is? :LOL: :LOL:

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Originally Posted by NTFDAY

Scooter, your sarcasm is showing. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

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Originally Posted by erik erikson

Some of us just got tired of having to run the valves every 10 or so pass's turning the engine to 9,000+ rpm's,having to change valve springs every month.
My 496 with a hyd roller cam, Dart heads, flat top pistons makes more hp and torque on pump gas than any of the 327's I ever owned and I don't have to work on it all the time and it is nothing that special.
Small cube engines are great if you like to work on something in your spare time.
BIGGER, BETTER,=FASTER. How's that for being sarcastic??L.O.L.

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i dont have to work on my car all the time mainly the carb but thats about it. then again im not out there every weekend but then again 10 passes a weekend 8 times in a row an not having to tweak anything but the carb is darn good id say.