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The Brodix -10 (23 degree heads) flows 262/166 @0.600". RHS Pro Action cast iron 235's flow 292/191 @0.600" (14 degree heads). I would think you'd have to be turnin' 8500 though, to pull air through 'em with any kind of velocity to fill the cylinders. That would require more cam than I showed in the 700 hp DynoSim. Jerry and Pat, what do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Could have the tricked out aluminum heads then do a bit of grinding on the accessory bolt pads, fill the holes, weld some camel humps, then with some paint...... Thanks Pat, that'd be kewl, huh? At least to the casual observer it would appear to be old style heads!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
Man, this project gets to be more fun everyday!!!!!! Having an absolute blast and still just in the planning stage! Soon as the chassis table is empty, the '57 frame is going on it!!!
Looks like we'll be needing something inbetween those two then, maybe with flow in the 270-275 range?????Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
RHS Pro Action 220 cast iron, 272/190 @0.600"Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
RHS Pro Action 200 cast iron, 268/190 @0.600"
yep i posted the cam what i think would be a good place to start, line 34 :) 682/654 @050.274/280 .lsa.110 i think the 220 runner heads should do the trick
Thanks Pat, I'll run up a DynoSim on 'er tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
Good info guys!!!! RHS 220's, anxious to see how these numbers compare to the -10's!
My apologies to those who read this before 6:25 PM, I messed up the DynoSim by not using the correct stroke. Had to go back and re-run it.
Moved the static compression ratio up to 13.50:1 to work better with more cam.
Used Pat's numbers, moved the centerlines around a little to get to where I wanted to be.
0.050" duration 274/280
Lift 0.682"/0.654"
116/104/110
Timing events 21/73/64/36
RHS Pro Action 220 cast iron heads, 23 degree valve angles
RPM HP TQ
3000 204 357
3500 244 366
4000 305 401
4500 395 460
5000 493 518
5500 582 556
6000 662 579
6500 729 590
7000 763 572
7500 783 548
8000 778 511
8500 776 480
9000 742 433
Peak volumetric efficiency 133.9% @7000
Peak BMEP 251.8 @6500
Well, the old hot rodder's axiom is....If some is good, then more is better, and too much is just right. Raised the static compression ratio to 14.50, all else the same....
RPM HP TQ
3000 217 380
3500 259 388
4000 318 418
4500 408 476
5000 505 530
5500 593 567
6000 675 590
6500 743 600
7000 778 584
7500 800 559
8000 798 524
8500 797 492
9000 780 455
Peak volumetric efficiency 135.0% @7000
Peak BMEP 256.8 @6500
Holy buckets!!! That is some mighty tall and very impressive numbers Richard!!! Sure seems to like those bigger heads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yep i knew that... the cam is a McC custom ;). getting the CR up there going to take some work with the small stroke may have to go custom on piston s .i was thinking all of 13.5 but 14.5 is good to if you can get it. have to look in to that abit more but it needs all you can get
I can see this painted on the front fenders....
---327 CRANK, IRON HEADS---
Or maybe on the sides of the hood like they did in NASCAR
Pat, I tried the 235 heads, but they were just too much. I wish they would have worked out, because the valve angles are 14 degrees, allowing a tiny little combustion chamber so that 14.50 would be easy to get. Thanks for the cam specs, worked out great, as you can see!!!!:3dSMILE::whacked::eek: I hope the timing events make sense, because they are kind of bass ackwards on the intake and exhaust centerlines. They worked out that way because I just kept retarding the cam and every time I retarded it, power went up, so I ended up with those centerlines to get the 110 LSA you called for.
i would think a guy could roll the head s some to get the CCs down they make that head in a 50 cc chamber that would be the one to start with . cam looks ok . cam could be nail down but would like to see what more lift would do for it but if this is a real build more cam may be hard to fit in .every thing looks good on paper :)
Dialed in 0.750" lift intake and exhaust. Picked up 5 hp and 4 ft/lbs.
Dialed in 0.800" lift intake and exhaust. Picked up 7 hp and 6 ft/lbs.
well start at 800 with lash your be close were i would want to see it and you will see some deflection valve should be titanium as rpm could be be abit more in life need a very good oil pan with all the bells and whistles. dave you may need a job at a bank ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
been gone for a couple days----for Tech--the longer rods will let the piston dwell at top and bottom of stroke which will allow for filling the cylinders a little better, but--(there's always a BUTT)--valve notches might need to be a bit deeper as the valves will be more off the seat while the piston is up there---that high a compression does create some blockage to the flame travel from the dome(hemi would help) Yeah, Dave---they ran hemis in everything back then--look at one of them!!!!
Thought about a hemi, Jerry....Got to stick with an sbc though...Found a bit of information on the history of the car, it was at one time powered by a 327 and 4 speed. I realize this engine won't replicate it, but it'll (sort of) be along those same lines....
PS--also some sponsorship considerations--you know how that goes!!!!
hell jerry will help you out on the Hem I :3dSMILE:i was leaning on one when i was at his shop . nice shiny aluminum he told me he was throwing it out :)the big block chevy would work better yep like i said trying to get 14to1 going to be tuff with big valve nochos and it going it get crowded in there but 13.5 should fly . it will work. move down on the rod from a 6.200 to a 6.125 pumping speed will go up a wee bit less dwell time just leave the line at 9500 and not the 8000 like you were :whacked: you will be the first long air into outer space:3dSMILE:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Any engine coming off the line at 9000 RPM has got to be the sweetest sound known to man!!!!!!!!!!!
For sure on the 6.125 rods???? Want to have it right before I start shopping!!!
Dave,thought you said you wanted to drive it on some cruise nights???.:confused::confused:
I will.....Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gary
Never underestimate the fortitude of a veteran hot rodder with attitude.:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gary
I think that would be a compliment?????Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
The car and I will be a lot alike....Barely civilized and only allowed out in public on a limited basis!!!!:whacked::whacked::whacked:
well you never seen any thing i drive on the streets :HMMM:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gary
There ya go Pat!!!! "Streetable" has a very loose definition for some of us, huh??:LOL::LOL::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
Ferocious. I have a few questions, on page 4 there were statements about short stroke being hard to get compression - care to elaborste? Also mention of an 800lift cam, will that fit into the cam hole? Or do they have BBC size cam bore?
yes its swep dist.more adds CR with less or no dome on pistons. the more stroke the less dome or less cc you need to get CR up. the bigger the stroke the more CR you can get with less dome . with big domes you get bad flame travel .like jerry said . spark plugs can get in the way bigger valve cut for hi lift big cams take a way from dome CC .all this some one need to find out when you build a engine like this. on custom piston i work most all this out before the pistons are made . you can get 15to1 with a flat top and 90 cc chamber head on some bbc engines .the cam would be for bbc cam bearings and core will take a 500 lobe with 1.6 rockers and use a 903 with a 810 wheelQuote:
Originally Posted by ojh
Yes, thats right - i got stupid again. When you said 'stroke' my brain fixated on rod length for soem reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
Thanks for the courteous explanation, oj
Yes Streetable is a LOOSE definition HAHAHAQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
well tech can fine tune this or jerry but looks if you use the RHS 50cc head and use the felpro F1014 and a 13 cc dome piston with a 4.155 bore with a 3.250 crank you get around a 13.8 CR at O deck . JE makes a piston in a 13 cc dome that may work with the 50 cc head or some hand fitting of the dome may or not be in order as that piston is shown for a 58 cc head so as a shelf piston would be ez to see if it works in this build so looks like at can work
As Richard said not to be a poser or a pain,but I am very sure all of you guys know of the shortcomings driving a race engine on the street.It ant about any sub and tubs.You can do that anywhere.Well,some race coilovers don't like that consistent use for very long.
I am a big time street rodder for many years.The point of my post is I too have started a project with one intent and ended up with something a lot different letting the hot rodder get the best of me.This is a high dollar engine that more than likely a well planed engine of the period the car was,you would be able to build two.When Dave came up with this car,He said he was going to follow the path of when the car was raced last.I thought cool,he was going to build a truly
a nostalgia gasser.All that brings back so many memories for so many people.
So I am in no way being defensive here.Yeah,I know,I know,how builds change and grow from their original intent.In fact look how much the engine build has changed since Richard's posted link,which years ago would have been a backyard build,to where it is here.:eek::LOL:
Build it like it is your last one...........is a common ground for all rodders.
The above is just my two cents worth.
well so your telling me what i used and built for the street will not work ? thats funny as i been at it for over 25+ years building and puting engines in street cars guys would like for a strip engine come to think about it there been many of my old street engines that i have sold to drag racers/mud racers . i know what works on the street . i been there and done it so i am not a poser but the real deal .i built many race engines some would call them that have seen many street miles .i am not the guy thats running a drag car with street tires .i have had tub out cars. my first car i tube out was in 1983 so i been there done that. i have been in to cars that are built for street use for some time. that will out stop and out handle that can take a fast turn. a car far better of the same year with far more power. now do i need this no. but i can build it. i want it. so i have it .it cost alot to build cars. i drive with the so called race engine are not every day but low mile drives short blast down the road . so the engines do not see any more then 1000 miles a year but have had race/street engines that have seen way more then that if i want to drive them more i can. i really like my rust old 90 chevy pick up were i do not have to worry about getting hit
One of the biggest shortcomings of driving a race engine on the street is heat....but E-85 Ethanol, just like methanol, runs very cool...sometimes at the drags we have to keep an oil heater plugged in between rounds while the gasoline guys are still trying to cool their cars down!!!!!
An automatic with a big stall converter is a real PITA on the street, mine will be either a 4 or 5 speed manual.
Driving on the street also has a lot to do with where you live...Madison has about 6,000 people and only 2 traffic lights in the entire town so the stop and go 1 block at a time stuff doesn't apply.
Race clutches are light pedal pressure these days, no more insane pressure to hold the clutch in.
The car will be (and has been for years) a gasser for all intents and purposes. Granted the engine will be a bit wilder and the car will have better brakes and steering then it has ever had but as I said in an earlier post I won't hold off on safety items to have "the look". Technology has improved immensly since the '57 was originally built as a drag car in the mid-60's sometime. With where I live and my intended use for the car, I don't really see any shortcomings of having a raspy nasty race engine on the street----I've had lighter cars with more power and ran them on the street with no problems---well other then an episode or two with the cops when things got a bit crazy.
Like Pat, doubt seriously if the car will even get close to 1,000 street miles a year. All it will really see is a bit of cruizin' once in awhile on Saturday night to go out and play with the other kids..... Around here we just don't have a lot of traffic to put up with, the majority of the cops are kewl, and my one and only neighbor is a gearhead also. I'll probably hit a number of out of town car show, but the '57 will make the trip in the trailer...
Finally, had I known guys like Pat, Richard, Jerry, and many of the other members on CHR back in the mid 60's probably would have built an engine much the same as this one will be.... I didn't mind spending a few extra $$$$ on parts back then either.
Anyway Gary, no offense taken and none given. My cars have always been a tad on the radical side, as I mentioned I have a very loose definition of streetable. I've had a number of street driven cars that would run high 9's to low 10's on the track with very few changes in the tune up or equipment from street to track. But ya gotta remember that I live out in the sticks and we can get away with a lot of stuff here that the city kids would get locked up for.
on dave engine? if he build s it may have alum rods . so would of a engine of that years late 60s . the new engine will have a roller . they had rollers . crank i am thinking will be a used nascar part ? but steel . so a good old steel crank re work ? about the same here. old block re work main caps / girdles .by the time you find a old block clean it machine it is not much more for the dart block and will take a beating better then a so/so block then seen god know what . same with the heads RHS iron heads less the 600 bare that flow very good. with old heads iron that need alot of work to flow and $$ way way more money just ask a class racer how much they spend on old junk iron heads to get numbers out of them . so i do not see two engines just one that is better one .price to build a engine like this will not cost any more then a in the good old day engine now . i knew guys with the good old day engines and they were sent out to the big shop for work and had heads work to less then a inch of there life and much $$$
Holy crow Pat!!!.Didn't say you don't know what ya doing.Did say some race engines by design are for those short bursts only.Some overheat when driven on the street and foul plugs.Some race clearances are not intended for street use.Com down Pat.Really don't want to ruin Dave's thread with stuff like this.Gezzzzzzz.
well i am just fine . msd keep plugs kleen . all i saying is less it has a soild block it can run on the street:D heat is a deal so you set them up just like at the track i can start another thread of the list of all the race and street /race engine so we can move this if you like :) you did say. guys you do know the short comings of driving a race engine on the street? i not mad :Di keep my fingers off the key board:D next time:D
Seems like a lot of bruhaha over an engine, car and drivetrain that has yet to be built.
My only advice is to make a plan, stick to it and quit designing by committee - a camel is really a horse that was designed by committee.
You're worried about fouling plugs??? Jesus!
When you have friends you trust who are more knowledgable on a subject, you're a fool not to ask their advice......Quote:
Originally Posted by ojh
I agree, and they are very knowledgable. I was just having some fun, stirring the pot so to speak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
So many different combinations have been pondered, i believe the latest has the cam in stock location and 6.125 aluminum rods - i don't think all that stuff will fit. Even with a 6" rod, stock location and somewhere around .720 or 30 lift cam and a lot of centerline you be bumping into things wouldn't you?
Just talking theoretical here, i probably read that somewhere in a magazine.
rod length has nothing to do with what it bumps into--but stroke and the profile of the lower/big end and bolts do-----