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Hey gents im building a chevy 388 stroker and right now i just have stock heads so i wanna put some roller rockers in em, but i dont know what to get and what i need for putting them in. can i just use stock push rods? and im not rich so the best deal would be nice any ideas gents?
You have to pull the stock studs, mill the bosses, then drill and tap for the stud size you're using, 3/8" or 7/16".. with stock heads, not sure it's even worth the expense of putting roller rockers on.... Long slot rockers and new nuts are probably compatible with the potential of the stock heads and a lot less money.....
so you think long slot rockers would give me as much power as rollers?
Roller rockers won't add enough power that you would even notice the change on a dyno............Quote:
Originally Posted by BO-C-FUS
well since most of the powers made in the head what would you suggest i do with them?
What heads do you have? What cam do you have? What's in the short block for parts, and what level of performance are you trying to get?
stock 350 heads and in the bottom is 400 stroker crank flat top pistons, the cams duration is advertised 288 and 290
Many, many different 350 heads... what CC chamber, what is the casting number??? If they're just the standard run of the mill smogger junk head, the best thing to do with them is replace them!!!!
I agree with Dave.Follow this logic.You build up a stroker engine,cam it up,and then on their best ported day OEM heads choke it because you can't open the heads up enough to feed the engine.There are very good reasons for the aftermarket heads and if you could come even close to them with a stock head,there wouldn't be a market for the aftermarket ones.A rule of thumb is .5 X the c.i= the intake cc size.There is no way in the "stock" OEM heads your going to open them up to 195CC's.I also agree the use of roller rockers for the street is a waste of time and money in most cases.So you did your build for a stroker and now you need to finish it with a decent cam and head combo.
The advantage of aftermarket rockers is accuracy. The stock stamped rockers can vary anywhere from 1.41 to 1.50. CompCams roller rockers are 1.52 (or 1.6) for SBC engines. The fact that they have a roller bearing simply means less friction. I agree with other about your heads. Your money is better spent on a better set of heads.
well i already got the long block all im workin on is the heads and their 64cc but guys im 17 i work as a dishwasher and my parents believe in hard work so when i want something i buy it, which im proud of ,but back to the issue is i cant afford new heads i just need to work with the ones ive got haha
I think my first question is what is the motor going in, and what are your goals for the motor? is this a backyard find? a take out motor from a donor rig that your converting? is it a fresh rebuild? has the block been machined before?
i gotta side with some of the other posters, that cast numbers are a good thing to post for more specified answers. cast numbers of the block and the heads would be good to post.
As for roller rockers on stock type G.M Iron Heads . Dave is right in saying the studs may be to short . Some roller rocker will work if the Poly-Locks have thread all the way down . But better to have Longer studs . And yes only two name brands Make true Ratio Stamped Rocker arms . I bought a set of Summit 1.50 Long Slot stamped Rockers that Looked good for a Budget 350 Build runs good ? Ha-Ha anyones guess how close the ratio is with out checking but same can be said about the G.M ones . Budget street engine what ya gona do . Iron G.M Heads on a 388 short block . If you have more time then Money start porting them out . You can get the cc's up alright but yes some 195cc Heads 72cc Chambers would be a nice bolt on . That 383 Combo above also has a Lot of room for improvements .
http://oi53.tinypic.com/29w5s2s.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg8z4SzZ0Cw
If you use CompCams roller tip rockers below, they are a drop in replacement for stock rockers. I have used them before on a build with no issues. You could also reuse them on another set of heads should you switch out your heads later. They are not fully rollerized, but they are a cut above stock stamped rockers.
COMP Cams 1412-16 - COMP Cams Magnum Steel Roller Tip Rocker Arms - Overview - SummitRacing.com
roller tip rockers are a wast of your money they give you zip for any thing. every thing gets worked off the pivot ball of the rocker . the ball still will see friction there nothing for friction at the tip ... save your money up ...
I agree that roller tip rockers are not ideal. However, the point I was trying to make Pat, was given the fact he is on a restricted budget, they are a less expensive alternative to getting a true ratio without having to replace all the studs and purchase a set of fully rollerized rocker arms and Poli-Locks.
I know many Folks will say how all the stress is in the Ball area of the Rocker . And Many Engine Guys will stick to that . But as anyone can see by the wear on the Tips of the rockers and top of the valves . There is in fact more friction going on then Folk may want to think of . I have no Problem up Grading to Roller Tip Stamp Rockers when the Price is Right . Also I have used them Comp Rockers and they worked great did not have any Burn up on me . I used a set of Roller Tip Stamped rockers on this 327 Build Elgin Brand not as Heavy Like the Comps but Looked to be good Rockers and Priced well .
http://oi51.tinypic.com/347ctq0.jpg
With your post about you and your budget I wanted to tell you your in good company here.Many of us got our start just like you and I for one respect you for your working efforts.
I do have a split decision about roller rockers.I do not think they are the biggest bang for your buck,but given your just trying to get alittle more given your budget I well understand that.To follow what Pat is telling you is the best advise you going to get.Don't get discouraged if you can't get the parts as fast as you think you should.Builds and projects do not and should not have a completion date.So my advise is if you find that your going up short for a part you want to get,save more money and be very proud of what you where able to do.
I'll be here in the cheap seats cheering you on and helping where I can.
Well said Gary -
I'll second most of what's been said and encourage you to just listen to Pat and others - digest it a bit and write up a plan for where you'd like to be in say six months. We've all been 17 and really - we do know what you're going through. I for one am impressed with the way you've presented your situation and you're holding your own with your first exchange on the forum.
I'd put what you've got together and use stock rockers arms (if you have them) and run it a while - this will not be the last time you're into the motor and hearing it run and driving the car a bit will be an encouragement. If you don't have the stock rockers, Summit sells a stamped steel 1.5 lift ratio kit for about 90 bucks (Summit Racing SUM-141506) that has roller tips and comes with new balls and nuts so you've got some neat new components in the valve train that will reduce friction and not break your bank.
When I was 17, I was working a 312 Ford with mushroom tappets and had that thing apart "several times" to change cams and such - one time because I got the lash too tight and bent a push rod, another time because I got a "good deal" on a "3/4 race cam" that actually ran like crap because I had the wrong tappets... That's how I (and many others here) learned.
Keep asking questions - we sometimes come across as a bunch of gruff ol' billy goats, but there's a ton of experience here and a lot of wisdom to be had.
Regards,
Glenn
tips wear from lack of lube push rods not really the right length they should be most of the time the tip is going to show wear on a hi mile engine so thats going to happen .there has been hi rent rocker arms for nascar that has no roller on the tip . after saying all this can your prove the tip roller is working all the time ? the ball see s every thing .as for steel stamp rocker last 3 engines i built used them i did mid lift check and checked for max lift they were not has far off as one would think but the quality of the one set was less then stellar there a rash of over sea junk that has darken my life so its hard to say thats good any more .any thing that was is no more . the fun life of a engine builder
Ok I have not opened many Hot Rod Books for some time now Ha-Ha . But I did remember David Vizard talked about this in one of his many H.P Book's .
Here are his thoughts ( The operating tip of roller rocker rolls across the tip of the valve , side loading on the valvestem is dramatically reduced, this increases stem and guide life . and since high valve lift can greatly increase side load and wear , especially if you use stamped-steel , stud mounted rockers )
Ok I would go by what He said . My thoughts / 2 Cents any one can see a round rolling part will have less friction then a Flat part rubbing up and down and walking on another Flat part . They get enough oil I have taking Roller Tip Rockers off with over 100K miles that had no wear on the Roller Tips and the Valves come right out of the Head's you Don't have to file them first .
well over the years thing change ls1 engines and fords other s use trunnions with out roller tip s and the tip is not flat if you re arc stock rockers you would know that . they can make more power stock then any old sbc stock chevy with roller tips. the tip could come in to play with more spring psi and lift . but then this is a very small lift cam . you still can not say the tip is turning so at this point the tip is load is bearing on the cheap roller pin that has a small capacity for load then a steel stamp tip rocker and you still are not using a bearing trunnions but a ball pivot a full roller rocker may help with friction .he will never see any added hp from a tip that may not work and the cost is all most $160 when a fully roller as $205 boy oh boy that.s a no brainer .i really do not care what DAVE V said. i do my own thinking on this . you can not? i will only to say that that cut and past you did is talking about a roller rocker not just a tip. yep and my chevy truck ran for over 200.000 miles with stock rocker arm and valve guldes GOOD GOD when will it stop the crime in this world .... tango keep dreaming running this B.S when the kid will be lucky to see any hp from a roller tip rocker keep dreaming show me the dyno numbers and that they can last as long as stock stuff on this engine ??? i see this as you i am sure have used more stock stuff and i used more and sold more T&Ds jesels .crane .crower. harland sharp s and other you get the point? so to say i do not use this stuff would not be true and to say you should know that a stock rocker will work fine ? he will not see any power from the roller tip ? that going to be worth any thing ? OH hey lets put roller bearing in for the cam as this could help him to ? :whacked:
You know you should have red that and Learned something . But I guess you think your smarter then David Vizard ? Your not and never will be . And from a Engine Builder that can't Build a Flat Tappet SB Chevy that will Live ? I sure would take what you say about Rockers with a grain of salt . You Like to think you know so Much ya don't fool me . Try and trash Me the best you can :p You know this old Boy can do what He says He can Oh Yeah you know it ;) You have a Lot to Learn but with your mind set Like it is . You will stay Like you are :HMMM:
maybe you should go back and read what i posted ?? i said that the steel stamp rockers do show wear as there as lack of oil to the tip and push rods may not be the right length .to say the tip is flat ? yep when they wear out there flat you would under stand contack point on a rocker / stem point . if you did any mild lift check s ? have you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by tango
No I never do none off this stuff Ha-Ha . One day I will show you how to build a SB with a Flat Tappet cam and we can use stock rockers ? Oh how much Lift can we go with them ? Do you know ?
Tango i build sbc flat lifter cam engines that live you really need help ....LET THIS GO ??? i built and machined more flat lifter cam in the last two years then you have. LET IT GO try to get help with this >>> RED ?? no it not hard for me to take you apart. l like to help you look bad its really not hard for meQuote:
Originally Posted by tango
oh one.. Day one ..day ..the day is now :) so now your saying that a stock stamed rocker will work fine for his build ? ok i go along with that .but now for my test for you ? how many hours have you spent setting up t&d s what s the pin for do you use what they send with the shaft ? Max lift on a stock gm or after market stock rocker slot not the same ???Quote:
Originally Posted by tango
still waiting ? what the size nuts jesel use for there shaft rockers what size bolts do T@D use for there rockers how many turns on the rocker arm cup before you shut oil off to the spring ? what deck do you cut the SBC to ? is the cam plug on a SHP dart block the same as a stock chevy?
Boys, momma always said if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Let's get back to posting civil to one another as if you are talking to each other face to face. Back to the subject of thread, if you can post relevant information, do so, if not, take it offline...........
Bill S.
C'mon you two.. let it go! We all know there are 2 ways to skin a cat! Heck, people tell me all the time I can't do this or can't do that! Makes no difference, my stuff is still going strong! Same with you cats, right! We come here to share some knowledge and have some laughs.. your "exchanges" are becoming boring and are no longer serving a purpose.. Stop thumping your chests , agree to dis-agree, and let's get back to havin' some fun! **):rolleyes::LOL:
I guess Bil and I were typing at the same time with the same sentiment.. 8-)
well show me were i called him a dumb a$$ show me were i said any thing other then he was a dreamer ? you can look back threw all my post on CLUB HOT ROD i have given more help to many more in a nice way ? but he just starts crap on here then flys way ...you are a day late and a dollar short
Sigh.. :( Don't and won't have to look back anywhere! I know for a fact you've helped many on here! And I hope you will continue to provide us with your knowledge and experience! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
And your right! I WAS born on July 5th.. so that did make me a day late! My folks were poor and I have worked hard for everything I have! Seems like I am always a dollar short! :eek:
Keep smilin' Pat. I am on your side and hope you'll shake this off and let's go back to havin' fun! :cool::D
Enough said for this thread, I'm moving on and hope you will do the same. We are better than getting into the mud! Have a great SATURDAY!
Well roller or no roller i'm still waiting to hear from the kid and what his plans are for the motor, what are his goals he has in mind and what is going to be the application? what else is he doing to the motor other than stroking it and wanting to change out some rockers??
at least for me when I'm approaching a build i start at ground zero and work my way to the top of the motor not the other way around. so rockers are the last thing i decide on which is why im curious what the goals are he has in mind.