383 Oiling issue

OK Gents and Ladies.. this issue isnt as simple as it sounds..
We bought an engine out of a 55 chevy thathad been replaced, because they "couldnt make it run right"
I wont go into all the issues with that...
The rotating assembly was together, the heads off.., cam was out.. Eagle crank, pink rods with arp bolts, speed pro hyper pistons with coated skirts.. Took it apart looked everything over. measured the crank, ordered new rod/main bearings.. measured the bores, and ordered new rings. Pulled the cover off the melling 55hv pump and checked clearances... reused it, like new..
Bolted it together.. installed the canfield alum heads, roller rockers, used break in lube with zinc etc...
Engine fired in first two revs, and ran wonderfully... I set the idle screw to run at 2000 rpm to let it run and break in, walked aroudn the front to watch gauges. .. about the time I looked at the oil pressure gauge it said 70PSI... but started dropping.. I watcfhed until it hit 5 PSI and shut it off.. it never stopped or slowed. it dropped like the second hand on a clock without pause...
Pulled the pan, put a new punp and different pickup tube in it. changed the filter and bypass and restarted... same issue. Oil pressure held for about 1 minute, then started dropping.. watched until it hit zero and the lifters started to clatter and shut it off... It has a mechanical gauge on the stand.. I tried a second gauge with the same results.... Just to make sure...
Pulled the crank and sent it in to have it checked, ordered a new cam, installed NEW cam bearings. Machinist said crank was good, he polished it and got me another new set of bearings to match. I checked the block for the plugs in the galleries. Made sure no one had drilled a hole in any of the front plugs for oiling the gear drive etc... reassembled.. started it... same issue exactly.. I figured it had to have a harmonics crack in the block along one of the main gallery's...
I took another block, had it bored, swapped all the parts in... fired it yesterday, ran one minute and the oil pressure started to drop... and went to 0 after watching it slowly go down for several moments... I shut it off, threw a few things. Drank a few beers staring at it, trying to think of reasons it might be doing this... I am now at a complete loss.. I have built a LOT of engines in my time, and have never hit a SBC I couldnt figure out.. this one has me stumped.. Looking for help, ideas, anyone thinking outside the box... What can I check here?????
Frustrated beyond belief... Thanks for any ideas or help guys!!!

I suggested way back in your original posts about doubling the amount of oil in the pan to see if it took longer to lose pressure and a few guys even suggested that you consider it,but evidently from reading thru all your posts you haven't tryd that---


Is your pick up still one inch off the pan bottom? Is the bottom of the oil pan sloped????
how wide and long is the bottom sump of the pan?????are the baffle doors in the pan installed correctly and move freely in the correct direction???????with the pan off and setting at the same level as when on the engine stand, pour oil into the side cavities to see how well it flows into the pickup area---------


With the pan off the engine and setting supported somehow on the floor(or bench--you can do this on a milling machine or drill press also) run the pump with your priming tool and the pickup immersed to the 1 inch level and see how long it takes to pump the oil out( you will want an old main cap and fix a hose or tube to it to route oil into catch can-----


Get a set of old valve covers and cut the top out so you can put on the heads on the stand and also remove the intake manifold so you can run your priming tool and see the oil flow to the top and return(or slow or no return ) from the top end----We have see many instances of aftermarket heads not draining back very well and with some of the aftermarket valve covers(big, fabricated,billet looking BLING?) will hold more oil that the pan causing a dry sump shortly after startup-----------


So good luck and I'm waiting------------

I'm with Jerry. If you haven't fixed the oil pickup you may be sucking a vortex on the bottom of the pan before the level even gets to the 1" level. Sounds to me like you've got an oil capacity/oil drainback problem - you've got all of your oil up in the valve covers and upper end, starving your pump. An easy way to know, but extremely messy would be to pull the bolts off of a valve cover, have someone hold it tight against the gasket to prevent leaking, start it up and run it until the oil pressure has dropped to zero and as you shut if down jerk the valve cover. I predict you'll have between two and three quarts of oil on the floor.

did you use your old lifters ? there has been a company thats made lifters for years had many bad sets of lifters out there will not say there name on here PM me i will . take valve covers off the engine, put primer back in the engine and just prime it . no need to run it . see what happens if oil shoots out of the lifters then just set covers loose on the engine . but i been told the lifter valving is so bad in the lifters that about a minute of priming will empty a stock sbc oil pan

the oil pickup isnt a problem, I did check it as suggested, half a dozen times just didnt post it.. sorry, need to know information... I replaced the pickup itself just in case it wasnt sealed when it was assembled, and the oil pan was replaced with this block because the dipstick tube is on the opposite side. When the idea came up the first thing I did was check the oil in the pan, run the engine until it hit 0 pressure, and checked the oil level, it read full about three seconds after the engine shut down.. it has now had three pickup tubes on it and two different oil pumps... When priming the engine with a drill, I watched the flow from the lifters and down into the heads. No oil pooled in the valve covers at that time, though there wasnt the same amount of oil in them like there would be if the engine was running.
The cam and lifters came from Lunati, Hyd lifters, they adjust correctly (none collapsed) and it does not rattle when running until several moments after the oil gauge hits 0.. and I havent let it run long at that point...

I havent ignored your recommendations, just havent put enough detail in type..

I should also mention, when I first start it, it Does hold pressure for about two or three minutes, which would also lead me to believe that its running out of oil at the pickup, however, once it IS warmed up just slightly, it will not hold pressure at all, even when shut down and restarted. Pressure will jump on restart, Often only to 40 or 50 psi but immediately begins to fall. let it cool off, it will hold 70 psi for two or three minutes. The dipstick always reads right on the full mark.
I do have a set of old valve covers that were cut out, so will pop them on and check it while running just to make sure. Please keep it coming!!!!!!

Isn't there an area at the distributer that the oil passes by? The distributor has a seal??

I could be all wet... I avoid bowties at all cost! But it popped into my head.

........................lifters

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Isn't there an area at the distributer that the oil passes by? The distributor has a seal??

I could be all wet... I avoid bowties at all cost! But it popped into my head.

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yep no seal but can be O ringed.you have to roll the edge of the hole in the block with a lead in the block so not to cut the O ring just did a Big M 598 for this . MSD Dist have this O ring job done . but funny that this works very well with no O rings many BBC and sbc and v6 gm enginea are running fine .just no matter how dumb it seems just like some on the dumb thing ford has done as well and others .not all engines are built the way we like them some of us have done things to make a bad idea better the trick is knowing . the sbc has a ok drain back and oil system some thing is getting way over looked like a under size cam journals .or lifters. or small base circle cam and lifters are droping in to the oil band part of the lifter

Since you have the engine on a stand---------remove all the pushrods so no oil will go to the top of the heads and use your prime tool to pump the oil to see if you get the same results-----if you don't you will have identified that its an issue of the heads not draining back (since the heads weren't changed)


Then, you can remove the back two lifters so all the oil is from the lifter galleys is dumped right back down into the lower end---------and you should maintain pressure as the oil will be on a very short circuit to return to the sump

Never said or thought it was dumb.. It was more a memory of someones motor who was losing oil pressure from that spot.

Just trying to help is all.

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Never said or thought it was dumb.. It was more a memory of someones motor who was losing oil pressure from that spot.

Just trying to help is all.

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no i said and in the past said it is. BUT i played with a 572 bbc that was low and did find that the hole in block was about 005 bigger then the oil rings could hold . played with it did find thicker O rings well that did not help much maybe 1.5 pounds was nothing the engine was set up loose that.s all that was over 10 years ago with many bottles of NOs thru it and getting the hell beat out of it in the muds pits. after the piston came apart crower billet rod cut threw the piston wall this block now back in the shop i did check lifter bores @ .0003.5 on the lifter to bores and the the rods and mains over 003.5 this did added to the lower oil presure. with this 383 two blocks doing the same thing ? yes checking the Dist size at that point may not be a bad ideal . have to start some were but 8 or 16 lifters will pass more oil

No harm / No foul Pat! As I said, it was a memory that flashed through and I thought I'd share is all. Might be something for him to check,, even if it isn't the complete problem.

Strange it would affect 2 blocks but maybe it's the distributor more than the block?

Anyway.. great minds think alike! Have a good weekend if we don't chat sooner.

hmm... the dist is an msd billet unit... I need to measure it... The only thing I can say is that my primer guide is an old dist housing cut down, and it does the same thing with the drill on it as it does with the engine running.. pressure comes up good, hits 70, and shortly after starts dropping...

ran with cut down valve covers. DID notice that some of the lifters oiled more than others, but have noticed that on many other small blocks int he past. all are getting oil, none are dry, and the oil is flowing back through the heads fine.
The only correlation I have between the two engines is cam/lifters, and the crankshaft.. at least that have to do with oiling. I am going to "once again" check the pickup tube and oil pump. If no difference is found, I am going to pull the crank back out of it.. is it possible that it was drilled wrong? While there I will check end play again, rod side to side clearance etc... I just have difficulty believing those things can cause the problem to be so severe.. I have pulled worn out engines apart with massively excessive clearances that still held SOME oil pressure... Please gents, keep thinking, I'm taking the advice and checking on it all at this point, even if I have done it before.

In some of the aftermarket cranks the rod throws are bored out to lighten the assy---------if the oil groove from the main to the rod journal isn't in the correct place it can come out in that cavity---if its f'd in one its probably a total orgy in all four-however, that would return the oil to the pan almost instantly---------this engine combo you have is doing something with the oil------------

Is it possible that much oil is roping around the crank? Have you tried different oils?

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i would think it.s the end of the line were its part of the pan with no sump under the rods /mains would take longer to recover the oil for the oil pickup to get it . like number #1and #3 crank rod /oil hole drilled wrong will pass oil you did check this i think this was the first post on this were i said i hand a new crank that was like this never made it to the engine . the oil hole was not covered by the rod bearing shell you may want to check that . or see if number 1 pin and number 4 pin are drilled some crank s all pins are helps with bob weight but they may of drill threw the oiling for the rods

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

i would think it.s the end of the line were its part of the pan with no sump under the rods /mains would take longer to recover the oil for the oil pickup to get it . like number #1and #3 crank rod /oil hole drilled wrong will pass oil you did check this i think this was the first post on this were i said i hand a new crank that was like this never made it to the engine . the oil hole was not covered by the rod bearing shell you may want to check that . or see if number 1 pin and number 4 pin are drilled some crank s all pins are helps with bob weight but they may of drill threw the oiling for the rods

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Pat.. you hit the nail squarely... I took the engine apart today to send everything in to be checked again, and for the hell of it pulled out my rubber tipped blow gun and didnt have to go past the first journal.. I blocked off the other hole and blew air into it, and the air blew right out through the lightening hole in the end of the journal... Talk about feeling like an idiot... I would never have checked this if you hadnt posted it... THANK YOU!!!!! Time to get another crank ordered and get this thing OUT of my shop!!!!!

happy you found it sorry you lost a crank over it .hope you take and make yard art out of it or used i as a door stop .i would hate to see it getting in the hands of some poor s.o.b

Glad I suggested that in post #14-------------

yep well jerry some thing like that. back in his first post on this. not this new posting i did ask it long ago before post16 i think it may have been abit hard to under stand oiling groove in you post? . drill holes in crank pins . who cares who posted it ? it is that he found it i also said i did not think it was the dist hole as oil would of dump under the oil pump in the sump it would not run out of oil just low oil psi as the drain backs in the valley are in the rear as well if any made it to the lifter valley

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

In some of the aftermarket cranks the rod throws are bored out to lighten the assy---------if the oil groove from the main to the rod journal isn't in the correct place it can come out in that cavity---if its f'd in one its probably a total orgy in all four-however, that would return the oil to the pan almost instantly---------this engine combo you have is doing something with the oil------------

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Yes you did, and I recall reading it and thinking... naw, I had the crank checked couldnt be.... right? RIGHT!!??!! At which point I set it aside... Goes to show that no matter how much you think you know your still just a teenager with parents that are idiots... they dont get smarter till your around 21 or 22.. then you realize how smart they really are. Thanks Jerry.. I should have paid more heed.

Your welcome---I was about to come to Richland to lend a hand-------------

Veddy intedddrestink. Glad you figured it out. Now, just screw an eye bolt or j-hook into the snout and hang it up and use it for a bell - - - should have a pretty nice clang to it if hung up.

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Originally Posted by OldMech

Yes you did, and I recall reading it and thinking... naw, I had the crank checked couldnt be.... right? RIGHT!!??!! At which point I set it aside... Goes to show that no matter how much you think you know your still just a teenager with parents that are idiots... they dont get smarter till your around 21 or 22.. then you realize how smart they really are. Thanks Jerry.. I should have paid more heed.

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ok so i did go back in your first post and it was post 18 just to check to see i did not lose all of my mind. i did asked you to check the crank for oiling holes but what the hell i shoot light up all oiling holes looks for burrs and blow air threw them should of found it then?????????

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Originally Posted by Rrumbler

Veddy intedddrestink. Glad you figured it out. Now, just screw an eye bolt or j-hook into the snout and hang it up and use it for a bell - - - should have a pretty nice clang to it if hung up.

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i wound never hang it would fall on me. that crank may not be done putting the hurt on ? i would dig a very deep hole in the back yard or better yet the neighbors

Glad you found it! I guess all my telepathic messages to check that weren't working either!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::LOL::LOL::LOL:

Make a mailbox stand out of it.. or perhaps the base for a fence post??

And thanks for letting us know the results of the search, that was a good one!

Old Mech, can you post a picture or two of the offending machining just to for clarity? I understand what's being said, but the old adage, a picture's worth 1000 words might help all of us remember what to look for BEFORE getting to assembly problems in startup.

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

ok so i did go back in your first post and it was post 18 just to check to see i did not lose all of my mind. i did asked you to check the crank for oiling holes but what the hell i shoot light up all oiling holes looks for burrs and blow air threw them should of found it then?????????

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I dont usually shoot light through the holes. I have a brush and gun cleaning patches I run through all the journals until they are squeaky clean... Like so many things in life you do repetitively.. when you have done something a hundred times you become complacent.. then when you pay someone to magnaflux and check your crank it makes you more complacent... So, now I have a BIG KNOT on the top of my head from the attitude adjustment I just received....
I considered the bell thing... I doubt it would fall on me, but every time I turned around I would hit my head on it.. (adding another knot) I think it has hurt me enough... so I mentioned turning it into an end table... Wife said thats a GREAT idea.. as long as it never comes into MY house... so the chances are it will become WEIGHT in the scrap heap... then again.. it would look really sharp if I put some rods and pistons on it.. weld everything in place, put legs and a glass top on it.. THEN sneak it into the house... I dont THINK she can pick it up to throw it at me......

**)**)

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Originally Posted by OldMech

I dont usually shoot light through the holes. I have a brush and gun cleaning patches I run through all the journals until they are squeaky clean... Like so many things in life you do repetitively.. when you have done something a hundred times you become complacent.. then when you pay someone to magnaflux and check your crank it makes you more complacent... So, now I have a BIG KNOT on the top of my head from the attitude adjustment I just received....
I considered the bell thing... I doubt it would fall on me, but every time I turned around I would hit my head on it.. (adding another knot) I think it has hurt me enough... so I mentioned turning it into an end table... Wife said thats a GREAT idea.. as long as it never comes into MY house... so the chances are it will become WEIGHT in the scrap heap... then again.. it would look really sharp if I put some rods and pistons on it.. weld everything in place, put legs and a glass top on it.. THEN sneak it into the house... I dont THINK she can pick it up to throw it at me......

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well the bad thing bout the photo is it will show the drill hole in the pin end it very well could been drilled to a much larger size hole when the guy balanced it .so he may only needed a few grams of more weight on the counter weigth and not adding more weight to the counter weight by putting a slug of heavy metal in it . like i do and many do to get the crank to come a round. i seen many cranks with 1and 4 drilled allways check them that there not busted threw when made .we never play with the crank pin hole when balancing them so they should be ok . the sbf ford like the 3.400 crank 5.400rod with the 8.200 deck as very big holes in the pin ends of the crank to get the bob weight up as it very short as there no room to swing a big counter weight with the short rod you have to use . many think the longer rod is need for moving the stroke on the crank for a better rod ratio but really it aids in balancing the crank as well. it can help if you spent a day drilling and pressing heavy metal in a crank all day:whacked: the photo is a bbc.

Jerry Clayton sent this as an example, with the following explanation:
Here are 2 pics of the front of a crank (1957 392 hemi) so you can get the idea--the front and rear journals of most V8's have been drilled on the front and rear throw for years, but the later aftermarket stroker cranks are getting drilled not only front and rear, but on all 4 journals and with bigger holes which means an offset hole to clear the oil passage, and sometimes they mess it up.

Attachment 59878

Attachment 59877

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Originally Posted by rspears

Old Mech, can you post a picture or two of the offending machining just to for clarity? I understand what's being said, but the old adage, a picture's worth 1000 words might help all of us remember what to look for BEFORE getting to assembly problems in startup.

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OldMech, can you perhaps post a picture of the crank we've been talking about, perhaps pointing to the offending hole and the problem you found?

Roger---I emailed you a couple photos of 1957 392 hemi showing area we're discussing---if you would please post them I'll be your friend til I finish my coffee

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Roger---I emailed you a couple photos of 1957 392 hemi showing area we're discussing---if you would please post them I'll be your friend til I finish my coffee

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Posted above, Jerry, before you can finish your cup of coffee....

Thanks Pat, Jerry/RSpears for the visual(s) it does help to explain the issue(s).

blower cranks many times do not drill #1 pin makes the crank stronger when driving the blower i was busy today at the shop .i will snap some photos of some gun drilled cranks and the ford stuff were the hole in pin end as better then 1 inch . many times 1and4 are only drilled all can be drilled like jerry said most of the 8 plate stuff all pins are drilled or can be

The owner took the crank this morning... I believe he is going to use it to beat a machinist to death.. greedy bstd didnt want me to go help.. either that or he didnt want witnesses.. I'll try to get pics when I get it back.... not sure whats going to happen, but I am sure its not going to be very pretty...
the sad part is that it came second hand.. he BOUGHT it this way, so I am not sure what recourse he has... we know who did it, and have the receipt, but the job was done for the person he purchased it from... Nice guy that he was.. we were told he couldnt make it run right...
REALLY!!!!????
So I do believe that if the machinist wont own up he may go after the seller.. Me??? I am holding a big stick and waiting for my name to be called... But I will try to get pics... the previous pics pretty much tell the tale.. looking into the hole you can JUST barely see the hole, it isnt large, and its easy to miss, but it is most assuredly there as the blow gun proved beyond any doubt....

here are some cranks if you guys wanted to see more of this stuff the crank with the big holes in the pins is a ford 302 .3.400 a sbc 2.100 rods. the bbc 8 plate all pins drill very hi HP crank . this crank had to much counter weight. they have been drilled and then are capped and welded as the holes in the counter weight are to get the weight down were i need it. the caps keeps oil out of the counter weights then getting slinged out at RPM .the 351w 4.000 is gun drilled with sbc 2.100 rods can see were they nip # 1 and drilled it to get the weight up on the counter weight and pin holes drilled .see if i can get them on here