350 spits fire when static timed

Neebie here so greetings all,

Here's the problem: 1st lets start with a 350 out of a 1980 camaro. Strip all the cr*p down to just motor(no sensors and such) Add the Edelbrock performance kit, and no-one knows which one, other than it's supposed to have a "mild" rv cam. The kit came with cam , lifters, pushrods (maybe),and Roller rockers. The heads were reworked (I don't know by who or where). So sort of tuned (looking) headers , followed by dual full legnth (on a '50 Chevy Sedan Delivery) exhaust with cherry bomb mufflers. Back on top is a Pro-something (my friend/owners words not mine) aluminum intake topped off with a brand new Holley 600 carb and brand new Accel Distributor w/delco remy coil. Also has new timing chain.

Ok so HERES the problem. Timing this motor has been perplexing. To start with Im not sure the timing cover is correct as the mark plate sits way off the balancer. Secondly to bring the mark to 10 degrees at idle with vac. adv. removed and vac. gauge in place drops the idle drastically and will OCCASIONALLY spit fire through carb. The thing is when starting from this position on a luke warm motor, for the first minute or so it revs BEAUTIFULLY. The exhaust sounds good and the motor smoothes out. The trouble is that it drags on restart ( engine hot) and every third or so rev spits fire. Now I know this is timing issue as when the timing is advanced the rpms pick way up, the timing mark disappears from sight and while it still revs good it still lacks what it does with timing mark visible to 10 degrees on the plate w/tioming light.
We have done #1 piston tdc and checked rotor position and this is where timing mark shows on plate. I must be forgetting something so I will wait to here from you out there for any suggestions/Questions
Thanks for the chance,
Rick

Welcome Aboard Mechanic Rick, god to see you here.

How were you verifying that cylinder 1 was at top dead center and that you were on the compression stroke?

Thanks,
Finger over hole and coffee stir straw while going back and forth with crank bolt.

BTW when is god to see me...I wnat to be on my best behavior. :-)

Thank you Denny,
Plugs are new and correctly gapped. Wires are new and ohm checked good. Distributor is brand new as the sticking vac advance on old distributor seemed apparent after replacing vac module. Hence the new Accel Distibutor has (and I checked) new springs. Timing has been checked with vac. advance disconnected and plugged. No rpm gauge (yet) but would call it around 900 to 1000 rpms on idle.Valve adjustment hasn,t been checked nor compression at this point and there are no sounds or signs that would make me supicious of this problem. Also remember when static timed and motor cold it starts and revs like a stripped ape. Warmed up it begins to spit fire and start like timing is off. Time it by ear (best sound and rev response with out spitting) and with advance off and plugged I can't even see the timing mark on the balancer.
Thanks again,
Rick

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Originally Posted by Mechanic Rick

I wnat to be on my best behavior. :-)

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I hate auto spell!

Denny touches on it and I have the same inkling.. when cold, it runs well, when temp comes up it backfires.. I'd say check the valve adjustment. It "feels" like the valves are being kept open when the system gets hot.

Also, the Accel dizzy, I wouldn't trust any part of it. They've earned their reputation.. it ain't a good one.
Once upon a time, back in the 60's, you couldn't win without them.. but now?? Don't trust - verify!

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Denny touches on it and I have the same inkling.. when cold, it runs well, when temp comes up it backfires.. I'd say check the valve adjustment. It "feels" like the valves are being kept open when the system gets hot.

Also, the Accel dizzy, I wouldn't trust any part of it. They've earned their reputation.. it ain't a good one.
Once upon a time, back in the 60's, you couldn't win without them.. but now?? Don't trust - verify!

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I'd adjust the valves following proper guidelines, but you might also do a compression check cold, then warm it up and do another compression check. It might be telling.... And I agree on the Accel distributor - the line has become a poster child for problems.

Welcome to CHR too, BTW.

First Let me say thank you all for piping in ,for as you know Missouri loves company. Okay I admit to being lazy about dropping the headers and pulling valve covers for compression check and valve adjustments.So it shall be done but in the meantime,could we address the timing mark issue.The accel does exactly the same as the the one it replaced.I have a used HEI distributor I can try but still have to wonder why I can't time this with a light and have it run like it does statically.
Thanks for enlightenment on accel,as it is a 250.00 P.O.S.,lesson learned.I will get to the comp. and valve train soon and post findings.

Thank you all again,
Rick
P.S. 36 Sedan ,just wanted to be a grammar nut and response to "god to see you here" wnat was my contribution to misspelling ;-)

Has the harmonic balancer slipped on its hub? Remote chance, but possible. If it's OK, find the true TDC and put a timing tape on the hub.

Chevrolet used 3 different timing arrangements on the Gen I motor, 12:00 O'Clock Noon, 2:00 O'Clock and 2:30 O'Clock as you look at the motor from the front. If you have not been in possession of the motor since it was new, you have no idea of the mixing and matching of parts that has taken place over time. Also, you have no idea if the outer inertia ring on the damper has slipped on the elastometic material that separates the ring from the hub, rendering the damper invalid for ignition-timing the motor.

My best advice is to purchase this rebuilt 2:00 O'Clock 6.75" harmonic damper from Damper Doctors and match it up with a 2:00 O'Clock timing cover or bolt-on timing tab from a '69 to '91 350. Damper Doctor uses new elastomeric material, clocks the hub to the eccentric ring and presses the whole mess together under tremendous hydraulic pressure. I prefer buying a rebuilt damper rather than a new one because you know that the damper hub originally matched up with a 350 crank snout diameter at the factory. Aftermarket dampers may or may not provide the correct press fit. A correct press fit is necessary because if the hub if too tight on the crank snout, you may never get the hub seated in its correct position and your belts will not line up. If the hub is too loose on the crank snout, harmonics will not be transferred from the crank to the damper hub and onto the inertia ring to be cancelled out and you could crack the crank.
CHE3501 69-91 #6272222 12551538 10066046 2:00 TAB
Then buy this genuine Chevrolet bolt-on 2:00 O'Clock timing tab.....
Genuine GM Chevy Small Block V8 Timing Pointer 6 75" 7" Balancer GM 3991435 | eBay

Here's a tutorial that I wrote some time back that may help you....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...op_dead_center

I guess I really want to say - Don't trust - But Verify!
Finding top dead center with a straw? I guess it'll get you close, but not dead nuts TDC!

When doing any kind of troubleshooting, you must verify each of the basics. And you must know without any doubt.

Wow and thanks to all who have answered,
and a special thanks to techinspector 1 for the extensive evaluation and information. It's exactly as you said about the hodge-podge mixture of parts and assembly. I will pass along the info and most likely order the balance assembly as prescribed, as it sounds like the best, total fix.I think we will go ahead with checking valve adjustments, as this was done the same time as the rest of the mistakes, found in this partial build. Although mechanically speaking, I would think, loose valves should be noisey and less likely to flame the carb, too tight valves would allow flames no matter the timing, generally speaking. Any thoughts on ear timing the motor and just observe temperatures and plug burn for trouble?This is after all a street rod show car and not subjected to any harsh endurances or regular use. Also there has been some talk of replacing the motor with a crate/turn key motor.Any suggestions?
Thank Again Everyone
Rick
P.S. Techinspector 1, I 100% agree with you about this planet's function in the universe. I'm koo-koo for cocoa puff's......

To find exact TDC after seeing where the rotor is close to firing #1 cylinder, I always used a cheap ol' piston stop (oreillys uner $3) in the spark plug hole, turn it over by hand clockwise (never with the starter), mark it where it stops, turn it back counterclockwise make a mark where it stops, exactly between the two marks is your TDC. This should also tell you if your balancer ring has slipped. Not to take away from everybodys expert advice, but I had this happen once with the SBC hodgepodge of different timing pointers vs different dampers, nothing being wrong with my new parts but I was using the wrong timing pointer.

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Originally Posted by Mechanic Rick

Any thoughts on ear timing the motor and just observe temperatures and plug burn for trouble?

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If you replace the damper and timing tab, you shouldn't have any further trouble with timing the motor with a light. Production cast iron heads, 12 at the crank and 24 in the weights for a total of 36. Aluminum heads or cast iron heads with good chambers, such as L31 Vortec heads, 12 at the crank and 22 in the weights for a total of 34. More cam will want more initial at the crank. Of course, all of us on this board have ear-timed motors in the past. If you want to keep track of what the motor is doing, purchase a lighted Longacre plug loupe and bone up on reading plugs.
Longacre Racing 50884, Longacre Tools and Pit Accessories | Longacre Racing

https://www.google.com/search?q=read...e9Mh-0-mH2k%3D

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Originally Posted by Mechanic Rick

Also there has been some talk of replacing the motor with a crate/turn key motor. Any suggestions?

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We were just discussing that subject on another thread.....
http://www.clubhotrod.com/chevy-smal...-383-cost.html

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Originally Posted by Mechanic Rick

P.S. Techinspector 1, I 100% agree with you about this planet's function in the universe. I'm koo-koo for cocoa puff's......

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Rick, you and I are going to get along just fine. :whacked::eek:

.

Rick, I sent you a PM. Click "Notifications" on the top line banner, right side.

Greetings and salutations,
Thanks all the more for my schooling. I know enough to know I don't know nuttin. Here's what I have gained as knowledge;
Compression on all but #7 cylinders was 150 psi and 140 psi on #7. That should fall within limits of difference from cylinder to cylinder. Valve adjustment will be done in the morning.Meanwhile back to timing incase I didn't iterate it originally let me re-iterate that when the #1 piston is at as tdc as I can get it the timing mark on the balancer is IN range of 8 to 10 degrees on the plate.With that being said, a cold start , with vac. adv. plugged into the timed vac. port of carb. it starts and runs like a healthy pig in a dance contest....for a few good revs, but quickly turns into a one armed paper hanger with crabs, spitting thru carb. and dieseling when stopped. Attempts to restart exhibit signs of being far out of time,or motor drags and wont start. Bring the timing in by ear and all seems well(starting ,running ,stopping) but lacks that dead on sound. Like I said tomorrow we check valve adjustment and check heads for torque. Any chance there is a blown head gasket?
As Always Thanks Again
Rick

The previous paragraph was brought to you by, a total lack of punctuation. Beg ur pardon.

Forgot an important couple of questions.
1) Is there any value in adjusting lifters on a running motor,it's what I was brought up on. 1b) Does anyone know the recommended procedure for doing this cold,as in the preloads and how to determine this with Edelbrock RV kit Cam,lifters and roller rockers.
2) Do they still make motor specific Chiltons rather than the Manuals at Twilight/autozone. We've already changed the headlight fluids and rotated the air in the tires,etc.
Thanks ,
Rick

Sounds like you forgot the muffler bearings and blinker fluid.

Adjusting valves while motor is running is the easiest and messiest way.

Back it off till it ticks, run it down till it don't..

Now the rub:

No one seems to agree on the additional turn

Opinions vary from quarter to full.

Half turn is pretty safe.

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Originally Posted by firebird77clone

and blinker fluid.

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Come on now! Everyone knows you fill the blinkers with air! Geeeeesh!

Oops.

I can't believe I muffed that one.

Ok, I'll test ya good:

Muffler bearings: ball or cylindrical?

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Originally Posted by firebird77clone

Oops.

Muffler bearings: ball or cylindrical?

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Tapered Timken rollers on all mufflers - trust me on this... I know this for a fact....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mechanic Rick

Forgot an important couple of questions.
1) Is there any value in adjusting lifters on a running motor,it's what I was brought up on. 1b) Does anyone know the recommended procedure for doing this cold,as in the preloads and how to determine this with Edelbrock RV kit Cam,lifters and roller rockers.
2) Do they still make motor specific Chiltons rather than the Manuals at Twilight/autozone. We've already changed the headlight fluids and rotated the air in the tires,etc.
Thanks ,
Rick

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In an attempt to get this train back on the tracks I'll toss in my $0.02 on your last two questions.
1) Everything I've seen in the last 30 years has said to adjust valves static. The last time I did the oil spray method (engine running, no valve cover) was on a flat tappet engine around 1985. 1b) Tech often references the Crankshaft Coalition, and he's written a bunch of their stuff too. I've found it to be an excellent reference, with backup for the why as well as instruction for the how. Adjusting Hydraulic Lifters - http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...raulic_lifters
2) Chilton's does make their Engine Overhaul books, but they're not the old Motors Manuals that I loved back in the day - last one I had was a 1979, I think, and I let them all get away from me sometime in the '80's. Link to Chilton's different engine books - Chevy, GM Engine Manuals: Rebuilding, Modifying, Performance, etc

No guarantees on staying on topic if you bait the animals.... ;)

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Originally Posted by glennsexton

Tapered Timken rollers on all mufflers - trust me on this... I know this for a fact....

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Granted, a good choice for stock to mild performance applications. However, for high performance you can't beat the flow rates of a helical spiral cut silica-nitrate with intricate heat sinks.

Yes, as Roger said, Do Not Feed The Animals.

And, back to the OP's last question, "could it be a head gasket?". Usually on SBC the head gasket blows between the the Siamese cylinders (two inner) because of the additional heat, which is indicated by the adjacent cylinder also having low compression. While that is the most usual, never rule out the unusual. First indications would be water in the oil and oil film on top of the coolant, I have even seen air bubbles blowing through the coolant from a head gasket leak. But, wether gasket leak to coolant or oil it should read on the plug (the plug different from the others), coolant will usually clean the plug, oil not so.
Your statement of timing set by ear raises the idle speed is indicative of advancing the timing, if you set timing by ear to highest idle speed it will always be to much advance and performance will suffer. So assuming your timing light set is correct and it runs good cold, but as it warms up it runs poorly and is hard to start hot. I would look for a coolant to cylinder leak (head gasket or cracked head), which could have been doctored with bars leak (or similar) by past owner.

Now, back to the zoo...

Which Holley carb do you have? you said 600cfm but there are several 600s-
does it have a manual or auto choke? What is the base jeyying and power valve you have?

Accel dist-----electronic or points?? a common thing on GM type dist advance mech in the upper dist is gummed up/rusted/etc inner shaft where drive shaft goes thru advance mech-particular problematic if advance springs are weaker set to increase curve sometimes they won't return to zero advance- also what amount of mech advance is in the plate?

The Holley carb needs to be removed so you can service adjust the throttle blades/plate to properly set the amount of opening at the transfer slots-they should as a rule of thumb look like little squares which would be .022x.022-----( I use a .025 drill to do a round hole and close the blades more as I put a bypass for idle air--but I also get $750 to do a pair of carbs)
Also make sure that your carb gaskets are on the correct way so no passages are blocked.

Timed/ported vacume advance is NOT the way that Chevy engines were set up------they used manifold vac to pull in extra timing at idle and lower/intermediate rpms for better part throttle and off idle response until mech took over in the advance curve abd by then the manifold vacume was falling off or none so only the mech advance was controlling the high rpm/load timing-------so, you have the timing on ported-this was a Ford thingie as they didn't use mech advance til 1957 and the ported/timed advance ran from a source at the carb venturie to advance the timing as rpm picked up-----and the way you have it set up you have no vac advance at idle and lower rpms but if the shaft/weights in the dist is sticking/binding not returning to none it will drag on starter, you'll pump the gas, when it finally ligths off will rev up higher than normal-----

Going on to adjusting the valves----it used to be touchie to do with lock nuts and adjusting screws but interferance fit rocker arms/screws made that much easier---the issue of being messy was brought on by the 1955 chev engines with the push rod fed oil to the top-those things would squirt oil like a whole team of drunken sailors--different people(probably Isky) made some little clipp thingies to put on the rockers to control the squirt--with the CENTER stud and an self locking adjusting nut it made setting the valves on its hydraulic rockers a nice piece of cake. Of course, those that switched to mech lifters had to do the feeler guage dance, but at least the chevs had exhaust manifolds that were lower and you didn't burn your hands like on the fords that came up higher ( gets complicated because of the different suspension systems?)

Ther is a liquid kit out there that you can use to pull air out of your cooling system thru that will change color if any exhaust gases are present-I'll have to look up th ename but maybe DennyW knows it------

time for refill on coffee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firebird77clone

Sounds like you forgot the muffler bearings and blinker fluid.

Adjusting valves while motor is running is the easiest and messiest way.

Back it off till it ticks, run it down till it don't..

Now the rub:

No one seems to agree on the additional turn

Opinions vary from quarter to full.

Half turn is pretty safe.

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The answer for the amount of that ADDITIONAL turn-------asbsolutely no turn beyond the clicking going away on hydraulics as that was what caused "pumpup", often miss diagnosed as valve float but was actually the lifter plunger travel area pumping up as valves were not following the cam lobes with weaker stock type springs and as a result the valves wouldn't completely close.

Also, if you want to discuss it--in a case of better springs and more real cam lobes--you really were set on where to set the adjustment-it will also depend on what you have for adjustment-for instance--3/8-24, and 7/16-20 will have a different amount of preload not only because of the thread pitch, but also the rocker ratio--

And of course-if you have shaft mounted rockers with the adjuster in the pushrod end of the arm, the preload will be directly in line with the thread pitch

ALSO-those rocker arm clips I mentioned are a Mr Gasket #1015 and available at AutoZone-of course you'll need to know make,year,model,engine,2-4 wheel drive,etc,etc

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Originally Posted by glennsexton

Tapered Timken rollers on all mufflers - trust me on this... I know this for a fact....

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I beg your pardon but, I run Torrington bearings on my stroker!

Thank you all,
Looks like its gonna stay timed by ear until we get the parts Techinspector1 recommended(new balancer and pointer plate).It still has issues once hot with starting but the battery is in the back of the vehicle and has starter issues from the past.The compression checked out good as did the valve adjustments,and its dead center of the distance between too advanced and too retarded. It starts(cold),runs, revs,and stops good,so there it is. Going after the rear seal and tranny leaks tomorrow.Took some pics with my phone but $@@12 dump computer won't recognise so a later date will post them.So in the mean time you folks rest assured you all were of help in this and I thank you all.
Have a safe,warm and happy holidays,
Rick
P.S. I purposely invited the "animals" as I can always use a good laugh(thanks for that) and I laughed so loud I got funny looks here. Here's my problem...What sort of mechanic goes on and on about muffler bearings without first stating the importance of the KINIBLY-PIN??? I can only hope the best for most of ya'lls muffler bearings. Don't forget the crazy-glue...........

Rick--------over many years I have worked on hundreds of those type engine set ups and a very common problem that I found with cases like your having was caused by the upper advance mechanism /shaft in the dist was hanging up-sometimes at low advance and then at more advance which would then cause starting issues and popping/spitting---------but go ahead and spend 3 or 4oo $ for a new dampner and marker-------

Rick, considering that you told us in your first post that you stripped the engine down to basics, then came back with a new manifold, new carb, new Accel Dizzy and new coil; then later told us that you have no way of knowing anything about the lower end/balancer/timing pointer, etc. I think that Tech's advice of a Damper Doctor rebuilt balancer with matching pointer is a great idea to remove that from unknowns column. Looking at Tech's links the rebuilt damper is $62 and the pointer is less than $8, so for less than $100 you know that you're solid on the timing marks. Sounds like a good plan to me if you've decided to stick with this engine, but before you spend that money it makes sense to verify TDC and index your damper to the pointer you have. Even if the damper is bad it doesn't change your spark timing, it just makes it difficult to set your base timing. That Accel distributor may be causing your problem, as has been pointed out.

What's the knibley pin ?

I've heard some good ones, but that one is beyond me.

And, just saying, pull #1 plug and bump it till you get compression stroke, stick a screwdriver down the hole and feel for top dead center while you crank it by hand (very safe and pretty accurate) and you can then verify if your pointer and balancer mark lines up. It's free, take ten minutes, and verifying before you buy parts never hurts.

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Originally Posted by firebird77clone

What's the knibley pin ?

I've heard some good ones, but that one is beyond me.

And, just saying, pull #1 plug and bump it till you get compression stroke, stick a screwdriver down the hole and feel for top dead center while you crank it by hand (very safe and pretty accurate) and you can then verify if your pointer and balancer mark lines up. It's free, take ten minutes, and verifying before you buy parts never hurts.

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Firebird, it was misspelled. Google "kinibly pin" and you'll get several examples of the use of the term in explaining stuff ;) - https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...#q=kinibly+pin

You're right on the advice to verify the existing pointer & balancer marks before going farther. Over night my brain kicked in with one of those "flashes" that since you don't have any type of cam position or crank position sensor involved any variation of the timing is happening apart from the damper/pointer, which only provides a base line for initial timing, and the reference point to understand the variable timing changes after that. The advice to check the distributor is spot on.

After reading this thread from the beginning and with some excellent advice being given by many who have been at this for a long time I have come to a conclusion. I would take the Accel dizzy and find the nearest trash bin and toss it in. I would run a stock Chevy points dizzy before I'd run that piece of junk.

The comments that are repeatedly on here slamming Accell distributors is misguided-while many of you may or not have had problems with them, most issues were very basic as is most issues involving ignition stuff

The dist has a few things that it does-triggers the primary, distributes the secondary (after the coil multiplies it) and with either or both controls the advance of the timing---and don't forget turns the oil pump!

Assuming a completely 100% good distributor/ignition system-----it doesn't take in to account issues with bad initial timing(which has very little to do with bad dampners/pointers), screwed up fuel supply, mixture, chokes,cooling, vacume leaks, etc,etc

I have test fired many engines without even having a front cover, dampner or pointer installed-however, I can guarantee you that the basic timing was correct and had been set with numbers generated by checking tdc with a positive stop method and degree wheel.

This OP has left too many basic things undone, unresponsive to comments/requests for info, and no pics of the install so we don't even know if its a real deal-

And since I have tried to give in depth answers but get back animal comments???????

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

The comments that are repeatedly on here slamming Accell distributors is misguided-while many of you may or not have had problems with them, most issues were very basic as is most issues involving ignition stuff

The dist has a few things that it does-triggers the primary, distributes the secondary (after the coil multiplies it) and with either or both controls the advance of the timing---and don't forget turns the oil pump!

Assuming a completely 100% good distributor/ignition system-----it doesn't take in to account issues with bad initial timing(which has very little to do with bad dampners/pointers), screwed up fuel supply, mixture, chokes,cooling, vacume leaks, etc,etc

I have test fired many engines without even having a front cover, dampner or pointer installed-however, I can guarantee you that the basic timing was correct and had been set with numbers generated by checking tdc with a positive stop method and degree wheel.

This OP has left too many basic things undone, unresponsive to comments/requests for info, and no pics of the install so we don't even know if its a real deal-

And since I have tried to give in depth answers but get back animal comments???????

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I don't wish to argue with you and many people would agree with you on Accell anything and many would not, so I'll pose a question. If you had the choice between a genuine MSD dizzy and an Accell dizzy, which one would you choose? Oh, and by the way I think the guy is a poser.

Well actually Ken, I go a long way back with the Accell people and would have to say probably an Accell-I loved it when they came out with the dual point dist with point wires that you could disconnect to set degrees of dwell. It also let me wire in a switch that I could trigger in high gear to retard the timing a few degrees so i COULD RUN OVER 44 * sorry caps intial timing-------

Msd has went thru much more discussing malfuntions for more people over the years but I do think most were operator induced-poor grounds, connections, low voltage, coils mounted wrong, caps not seated, bad seconary carbon wires plus a multitude of inproper wired retards, varible timing devices-----------------

When Accell first hit the market they put out a quality product just like Fram and then the must have shipped their production to China and they went down the toilet and yes I'm aware of MSD problems though I believe they got their act together.
Reminds me of when I worked at Zenith, 18 1/2 years, till they moved to Mexico. They started going downhill in the 80's when they moved the Quality Dept. to Engineering and Engineering would just issue a waiver and everybody went on their merry way. The joke at the plant was that everybody was looking for the man that put the quality in before the name went on. Never did find him or her as the case may be.

I think lots of the engineering on electronics WASN'T under a" hot hood in the summertime"(song title)

I remember solving my Ford eltectronic on 1974 460 in F250 with an bag of ice over the modual----It certainly was hot to touch---of course-I don't remember ever changing a spark plug after the electronic ign came out. The higher voltage would carbon track inside the caps occasionally and cross fire as they also cross fired with the 7mm wires--then 8 & 9 mm wires solved that