piece of pie

Well I'm just waiting for the big storm, but so far there has only been fine ice dust. Our power may go out so maybe I will get a few answers from you pro body people while if/when it goes out here. I am going to attach a VERY nice picture of a '28 roadster from the CARNUT collection, since I learned how to copy pictures. I saw this in Street Rodder over a year ago but I don't remember who the owners are. Basically I am trying to estimate the "pie cut" angle of the windshield. I think it really modernizes the shape of the Model-A profile to lean the windshield back a little. I asked Bob Parmenter about this and he called it a "pie-cut" but I would think you have to cut a wedge out of the top of the posts as well as the bottom so that the wooden top bow lays down on the pins at the top of the frame. One other aspect to ask you experts is to note that in my Sunfire Convert the windshield is slanted back so far that when I lean forward to wind the window my head hits the windshield, so in the case of the Model-A I don't want my nose right on the front glass so there must be some limit on the slant angle. Let's start the discussion with 20 degrees? I would call it a Z-cut since I would take a 20-degree wedge out of the bottom of the frame brackets on the back and then another 20-degree wedge out of the frame on the front at the top of the brackets (which seems like a 20 degree Z to me).
Another question is whether to use the stock height brackets or the 2" chopped brackets? I would guess with the slant I will get quite a bit of chop/height reduction due to the lean back and if I use the 2" chop with the lean back the top will be more like a 3" chop? Bebops offers a fiberglass top chopped 3" so if I use a 1" lower height with the brackets usually used for a 2" chop and leaned back I can use trigonometry to estimate the angle as 11"/12" = cos(angle), so angle = 23.55 degrees (assuming the glass is 12". Thus brackets for a 2" chop tilted back by about 24 degrees would be equivalent to a 3" chop (which may be too low) if the glass is 12" wide. Can anyone explain the "pie-cut" to me better and/or tell me how to contact the owners of this fantastic A roadster so I can ask them how they did it?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don---I recently seen a magazine article that relates to what you are talking about, plus I have been engaged in ongoing talks with some convertible top manufacturers in British Columbia. In the magazine article that I seen, the windshield posts that bolt to the cowl were cast from brass and had a slot milled on the inside which was just wide enough to accept the windshield glass and some of the same kind of material that you use to seat a side glass in a roll up track mechanism. (I don't know what it is called). A slot was cut into the peice of sheet metal that spans across the top of the cowl below the glass, and a u shaped peice of sheet metal (the same width as the milled slots) was welded into it to accept the bottom of the windshield. A simple u shaped channel was formed to cap the open top side of the windshield, and after the windshield was slid down into the slot the top peice was attached to the top of the windshield posts with a countersunk head screw (one on each post). I really don't know what the windshield header on a model A looks like, but the convertible top people I have been talking to make tops for 32 Fords. The 32 Ford has a cylindrical stub which pivots at the top of the windshield post, so that no matter what angle the posts are at this stub can be rotated into the vertical, to engage holes in the aluminum header. This header sets down over the stubs, and a setscrew holds them in place. This aluminum header (which is actually part of the convertible top) has a soft rubber molding attached to its underside, so that when the header is setting in place on the vertical stubs, it rides tight against the front of the windshield to seal out the rain and wind. I hope this helps some.

Thanks Brian, I am aware of several types of bronze castings for special windshields on early Fords such as the Duvall V-shape and there is a beautiful special frame from Outlaw for '32s. These bronze castings are usually VERY expensive so what attracted me to the "pie-cut" idea is that you can use ordinary steel windshield posts and just notch them by cutting out a pie-shaped wedge and rewelding after bending the angle closed. This means that one only risks less than $100 for steel brackets and the usual glass and rubber seals can be used. The Brookville catalog shows the header to be made of wood so the vertical posts need to enter the wood straight up, I suppose. That is why I would like to communicate with the folks who did the roadster I show in the picture. Well maybe no person on this Forum has worked with the pie-cut idea but Bob Parmenter knew about it; maybe it is a rare trick not common among roadster builders.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don, I don't know if 20 degrees is correct or not, instinctively it sounds a bit much, but that's neither here nor there. What I would suggest is you lay the stanchion on a piece of poster board or other similar pattern making material. Trace the outline of the stanchion, and then make several. Now you'll be able to "practice" how much to cut out to get the slant you want. Tape it to the car and stand back so you get a good perspective on it and make sure you like it before commiting to doing it in steel. You could even use the mock up to determine what your net height change will be. Again, not sure it would be an entire inch, but that's what mocking up is for. As for the lug on top for the header, once you've got the lower angle figured, you can just cut the upper pivot hole area loose (a smile cut?) and rotate it slightly forward to get the lug "verticle" again. Need just a small filler piece in the rear (probably use the small piece trimmed off the front if they're the same shape) then and no revision of pivot point orientation. As far back as you would sit from the windshield I can't imagine you'd have any interference with your head in normal use.

There are a number of windshield posts made from cast aluminum that have a slot in them to "drop" in (actually glued in) a piece of windshield glass cut to fit. Although most seem to be for the '32 guys, rather than A's. These parts are aimed more at the smoothie style crowd as it eliminates the frame around the glass and the pivoting feature. Not sure if I've ever seen then with a pronounced slant back, but then I don't tend to be interested in that style.

Hi All! My roadster's a '32 but I layed my posts back just a bit via modifying the "stop" where the top post mounts on to the lower stanchions - not much but it looks better. On an A you would just have to pie cut the stanchions from the back above where they bolt on, reweld them, and polish them back up. But you 're right about having to change the angle of the top "stub" so your W/S header will sit right. All I did was notch it from the back about 3/4" down from the top, bend it til it was vertical again, then weld it up, smooth it off, and polish it back up again (the posts are stainless so you just have to polish them again). I've sold a few Topsters to guys that laid their W/S back and that's all they had to do to make the header fit right - no problem.;)

Don---Sorry----I had it wrong. The round stub at the end of the top of the windshield post is an actual extension of the post, and is not angle adjustable. The big wing nut at the top of a roadster window post is to adjust the tilt of the windshield frame. The wing nut part way down the post (which I think is only on 32 windshields) is to adjust the tilt of the post itself. Topster guy has it right----if you piecut the post to lean it back, you will have to pie cut or smile cut the round stub at the top of the post and tilt it an equal amount in the opposite direction. I have never actually seen either of these windshield frames except in magazines, so I was confused.

Don---I am certainly in "learn as I go" mode on this windshield thing. I have a Brookville catalogue here, and it appears as if only the 28 and 29 model A's had a fixed angle one peice windshield post. The posts which they offer for the 30/31 series seems to have a 2-peice post with a hinged joint in it similar to the 1932 models. I can only assume that if people wanted to run their convertible top on the 30/31 models, that they would have to adjust the posts to set verticaly, similar to the 28/29, but if they weren't using their top they could loosen off the big wing nut at this joint and lean the posts back. The reason that I have had a dialogue with the Topster guys from B.C. is to see if I can come up with a method of attaching their top to the posts on my roadster pickup, which of course has cut off sedan windshield posts. I have solved this issue by welding a plate into the top of my posts to close them off, and putting a 3/8" threaded hole into the plate. I will make adapter stubs the same diameter as the top of a model A windshield post, with a 3/8" threaded shank on them. When they are screwed into place, this will enable me to use a conventional convertible top header.

Thanks all, I appreciate your collective expertise. In particular I am very encouraged to know from Topsterguy that a Topster frame can be obtained to accomodate the tilted WS frame. I could not quite see how I would be able to modify a standard set of top irons to allow for the shortened distance to the top "pins". That is great news and favors purchase of a Topster frame in the future. Thanks to Brian for his many helpful pictures. For Brian I note that the recent discussion of cabriolet cowls shows that the '31 A-cabriolet had WS posts that were tilted back at about 10 degrees and that it is not too late to pie-cut your posts, but of course you already have the body work finished on your PU. Again that is why I am interested in just making small v-cuts in the steel brackets. Bob is right about sighting it out and now that I know that a Topster frame can be fitted I don't have to fit the brackets to a specific height. It looks easier to do now, thanks.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Hey Don! Glad to see that you gained some info and ideas from your question! That's what this place is all about - answers and ideas - and I know "I've" sure benefitted from stuff here and other forums! Also just so Y'know, we 're always open to ideas and modifications to make our Topsters work for "each hot rodders application".:)

Don, I have no idea what you are talking about, but, I can sure see why you are enamoured with that roadster...hey, you got any project pics of your own? :D :whacked:

Jerrilynne, nice to hear from you. Well so far for mid-VA we only have 17 degrees and 2" of hard crust, but the roads are slick. That picture is one I would like to copy with the windshield posts slanted back instead of the stock vertical windshield posts. It makes it look faster and a little more "modern". My only pictures are of frame and engine stuff on the thread "I ain't got no body" because I just got most of my chassis set up and now am getting ready for a body. Then I am considering the slanted windshield approach and I really like the one I show in the picture. It has obviously been to some shows and I would like to communicate with the owners/builders if someone knows who owns that car now.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Well I have been "Computer Down" for about three days just fooling around with AntiSpyware to try to slow down the popups. I installed many different anti-spyware programs and tried a lot of them, about seven altogether. Now I have discarded the ones which did not seem to work and in fact no one of them seems best but I have kept "Web Sweeper" from MSN which takes about 30 minutes to run and then cannot clear all the contaminated registers, Microsoft "AntiSpyware-beta" from Microsoft which works pretty well but also takes at least 20 minutes to run and still leaves a few hijacker programs running and finally I actually paid money to get "Spyware Killer Pro" for only $29.95 and it really runs fast in less than a minute and seems to do the job for now. I seem to be back up running OK but some of the frills are gone along with the annoying popups. People on systems which are maintained by a professional Internet person don't realize all the problems they are missing! ANYWAY, this is one last chance to ask if anyone on this Forum knows the owners of the roadster I show at the top of this thread. It has been in a few shows/meets and I believe it appeared in Street Rodder sometime in the last three years but not as a featured car. I sure would like to chat with whoever "piecut" the windshield posts for that car! Has anyone actually seen that car?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder