50 fastest musclecars

riverhorse59 where you started with the cu, in. tells the story. other than the exception of a few motors Modern technology can take a 302-350 cu.in. motor and run as fast as the 400 up cu. in 1960-1970 did. you can drive a new camaro to church with a 5.7 in it with all the accessorys, with overdrive and get 22 m.p.g. gas. on the way home after church you can stop by your local drag stripe, pay at the gate, get in line and run 13 sec. go home and eat lunch and never got out of the car unless you wonted to. you can increase your h.p. by 15 % and never get your hands dirty and still get 22 m.p.g. im not saying thats the way it should be but, thats the way it is. :HMMM: :D

LT1S10, If I could afford it I would proberly have all the conviences of modern technology put in an older car . To me they have more personality and have a look of their own. I have to use what I have to work with, even when I know I would enjoy my car with the motor you have more. If I want to enjoy this car any time soon I will use whats in my garage and quit thinking I have to have more.

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Originally posted by riverhorse59
LT1S10, If I could afford it I would proberly have all the conviences of modern technology put in an older car . To me they have more personality and have a look of their own. I have to use what I have to work with, even when I know I would enjoy my car with the motor you have more. If I want to enjoy this car any time soon I will use whats in my garage and quit thinking I have to have more.

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what did you do with the big bucks i paid you for that motor anyway? how do you sleep at night? :HMMM: :LOL: :LOL:

LT1S10, If you remember, You told me You knew what I had I the engine and the 6-speed. I never gave You a price, You made the offer. I excepted. Are you having 2nd. thoughts?

Do I detect buyers Remorse?

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Originally posted by riverhorse59
Do I detect buyers Remorse?

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you ought to know that when you see it "buyers Remorse". no i dont wont all my money back just most of it. :whacked: :cool:

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Originally posted by riverhorse59
LT1S10, If you remember, You told me You knew what I had I the engine and the 6-speed. I never gave You a price, You made the offer. I excepted. Are you having 2nd. thoughts?

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yes, i found one a lot cheaper about 6 mo. later. :rolleyes: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Geez, I go away sick for a few days and this is what I come back too!? OK, this is it, the end all, final straw.Modern cars are getting 300HP now. Good, yay, la-de-freakin-da. However, if the same technology had been applied back in the 70s to non-smog law cars we would have had 600 and 800HP from those blocks. Twin turbo vipers and modern vetts arent on the list cause someone trying to pay for a family while working couldnt have bought one. I personally am a big fan of the Hennesey Viper 800, but im not going to add it to the list. The new GTOs and STOCK Mustangs, maybe. But I need good arguments from the people supporting it, not rants. Either that, or I'll just make a "Fastest American Cars" list. Actually, that has potential. I'll start that thread now:)

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Originally posted by drg84
Geez, I go away sick for a few days and this is what I come back too!? OK, this is it, the end all, final straw.Modern cars are getting 300HP now. Good, yay, la-de-freakin-da. However, if the same technology had been applied back in the 70s to non-smog law cars we would have had 600 and 800HP from those blocks. Twin turbo vipers and modern vetts arent on the list cause someone trying to pay for a family while working couldnt have bought one. I personally am a big fan of the Hennesey Viper 800, but im not going to add it to the list. The new GTOs and STOCK Mustangs, maybe. But I need good arguments from the people supporting it, not rants. Either that, or I'll just make a "Fastest American Cars" list. Actually, that has potential. I'll start that thread now:)

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Don't sweat the petty things (and don't pet the sweaty things) after all, "When the green light drops, the bullsh!t stops" :toocool:

:3dSMILE: And I did'nt even mention that 8sec Bucket :eek: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

hey denny I like coolaid too :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

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Originally posted by drg84
Geez, I go away sick for a few days and this is what I come back too!? OK, this is it, the end all, final straw.Modern cars are getting 300HP now. Good, yay, la-de-freakin-da. However, if the same technology had been applied back in the 70s to non-smog law cars we would have had 600 and 800HP from those blocks. Twin turbo vipers and modern vetts arent on the list cause someone trying to pay for a family while working couldnt have bought one. I personally am a big fan of the Hennesey Viper 800, but im not going to add it to the list. The new GTOs and STOCK Mustangs, maybe. But I need good arguments from the people supporting it, not rants. Either that, or I'll just make a "Fastest American Cars" list. Actually, that has potential. I'll start that thread now:)

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Ah, the Kool Aid drinking, remember the good old days, crew has arrived. While I'd admit that an ignition failure in a newer car such as Denny is suggesting would require a tow truck, how often would this occur? The only fuel system/ignition system problem I've had in the last 15 years that required a tow truck was a bad electric fuel pump in a Corsica with 127,000 miles on it.

David, I wasn't including Hennesey Vipers anymore than I'd include Fiberglass Cobras with tubs and blowers. That twin turbo Viper was brought up in that context. As for the cost of the new Viper, do you think original Cobras and Corvettes were cheap? A 20 year old would no more be driving a new 'Vette in '65 than a 20 year old would be driving a new 'Vette or Viper now.

As for horsepower figuires, you should recheck how horsepower was figuired then and now. 375 gross horsepower then is 280 horsepower now. This is why a stock Camaro Z-28 SS could clean up against '68 Dodge Charger with a 440 even though it weighs 100-200 pounds more. Taking expensive 'exotic' stuff off your list, how many cars top the 2005 GTO? If you want to be seduced by LS6 Chevelles, remember that the current LS6 has equal net horsepower.

And as you are talking stock horsepower, your argument that new technology on old powerplants makes old cars better, well that's nice in theory. The fact is, they didn't do it. Go back to the Hennesey Vipers if you want start including modifications to your arguments. As for rants vs. arguments, see the quarter mile times that you obviously didn't look at. 13 sections flat is 13 seconds flat, new technology or not. You may not like new technology, or consider them real muscle cars, but the timing tower at the drag strip doesn't care what year the car is.

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Originally posted by viking
Don't sweat the petty things (and don't pet the sweaty things) after all, "When the green light drops, the bullsh!t stops"

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2002 Camaro SS 13.50@108 346 LS1 325 HP 6-Spd 3.42
2004 Ford Mustang Cobra 13.30@108 280 390 HP 6-Spd 3.55
2005 Pontiac GTO 13.10@??? 364 LS2 400 HP Auto 3.46

Heres my two cents:

I work at a local track and watch EVERY kind of car imaginable go down the track, I have watched many mustangs and gtos go down the track and sorry but they dont come close to no 13.10 or 13.50 or whatever.....PERIOD.... Im not quite sure of a cut off date but it was before the 80s and after the 70s for sure. You may think that turbo cars should be muscle cars or vipers are muscle cars or whatever, in my opinion they are a rich mans sports car. If its not sold at a swap meet then it aint muscle.

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Originally posted by DennyW
:) Kool John, now you got me hummin that song: Kool aid Kool aid, tastes great! Wish I had some, can't wait, hahaha. Nice wheels on there to. :)

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I just thought I'd post a koolaid rod :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Kool Aid is really great if you spike it a little. Just don't tell the kids. They'll sleep like rocks. hehehehehe

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Originally posted by techinspector1
swifster, why are you so angry and why do you feel you have to say hurtful things about us old guys?

"Again, don't drink the old geezer Kool Aid. Most are just intimidated by the technology"

"Sorry Matt, stop drinking the old guys Kool Aid. The old guys talk about the good old days. Matt wake up. As far as performance cars go, these are the good old days!"

"Ah, the Kool Aid drinking, remember the good old days, crew has arrived"

What's all this reference to kool-aid and just who the hell do you think you are anyway. It's unfortunate that your parents weren't able to teach you any manners.

"What I don't like is automotive snobbery"

You must like it, you're practicing it full steam ahead on this thread.

swifster, this is Club Hot Rod, not Club Tuner. Seriously, if you can't be polite and tolerant of us old guys and our ideas and solutions to problems, move on to another forum with other computer, tuner types where you can be happier.

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Richard, I'm far from angry. You need to reread the thread. I like all things automotive. I'm for inclusion not exclusion. You may not like the Kool Aid reference, but I thought is was better than propaganda (and easier to spell).

And no, I'm not into tuner cars. My Suzuki is set up for SCCA road racing. It doesn't have big boom boxes, weird body kits, and spoilers that do nothing but weigh the back of the car down. It does have a 8 Pt cage, a 6K trans, and slicks at all for corners. If you watch the Speed channel, check out the Runoffs for the SCCA and watch for G and H Production.

I also have a '64 Studebaker Daytona. That is my 'hot rod'. It's going to have a 421 CI V-8 with a roots blower (tucked under the hood). The car is being built like you would build a classic hot rod (from the ground up). I have a lot of respect for cars of the same era. I said has much. I certainly wouldn't take a knife to a gun fight and a wouldn't drive a Civic to race a Camaro (of just about any vintage).

Wouldn't you call it snobbery when many (not all) say that newer cars shouldn't be called 'muscle cars'? I have many friends with newer Camaros, Firebirds, Grand Nationals, Corvettes, GTOs and Mustangs that run 11's and 12's all day. They're not included?

This was a discussion over what could be discussed as a Muscle Car. Wouldn't you agree that for the most part the older generation thinks newer cars are crap? I could go back and quote Streets again for you, but I'm sure you read it.

As for respect, that's a two-way street. I have plenty of respect for those on these boards. But what you may need to understand is that there is two sides to everything. I look forward to new ideas and solutions, but can you say the same. That is actually what this whole thread is about; new ideas. Computers vs carbs, roots blowers vs turbos, live axle vs IRS, vinyl vs leather (god, I love the smell of new leather in the morning), old LS6 vs new LS6.

I'll make you a deal. I'll go hitch a ride in my buddy's '68 Shelby Mustang GT350 and you hit your local Ford dealer and take a new Mustang GT for a test drive. I know when we're done we'll both have had a blast. But right now, I know I'll have fun in the old Mustang. Do you think you'll have fun in the new one?

OK swifster, heres how I look at your nice little "newer technology on older blocks doesnt work" theory. Do you know what a MSD box is? Do you know why the points style ingition has been swapped out of the majority of driven hot rods/muslce cars? Do you know why the 426Hemi was rated at a mere 425HP? When these cars were created, they were pulling 13s on crappy bias tires with standard issue widths, stopping them with drum brakes. Nowadays the cars are running 18/70 and 60 series with tires wider then two of the classic rubber put together. 13 seconds is 13 seconds-true. But its a lot more impressive to see 13 seconds from a man with a broken foot than a guy running 13 with the wind with $600 sneakers. As for your newer cars becoming muscle cars, Im afraid not. Feel free to post their stock times on the "Fastest American Cars" list forum. But their no more a muscle car than your suzuki.

:eek: Dang, it's on now :LOL:

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Originally posted by drg84
OK swifster, heres how I look at your nice little "newer technology on older blocks doesnt work" theory. Do you know what a MSD box is? Do you know why the points style ingition has been swapped out of the majority of driven hot rods/muslce cars? Do you know why the 426Hemi was rated at a mere 425HP? When these cars were created, they were pulling 13s on crappy bias tires with standard issue widths, stopping them with drum brakes. Nowadays the cars are running 18/70 and 60 series with tires wider then two of the classic rubber put together. 13 seconds is 13 seconds-true. But its a lot more impressive to see 13 seconds from a man with a broken foot than a guy running 13 with the wind with $600 sneakers. As for your newer cars becoming muscle cars, Im afraid not. Feel free to post their stock times on the "Fastest American Cars" list forum. But their no more a muscle car than your suzuki.

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What car came from Detroit (or South Bend) with an MSD box? Remember, this was your list showing "as delivered" times. You set the rules. 13.10 for a new GTO is still 13.10 .

As for why 426's were only rated at 425 HP, yes I do. I also know why the '67 GTO was rated at only 360 HP, and why LS6 Chevelle SS' were only rated at 450 HP. Insurance! It was to keep these cars from being black listed. At your age in 1970, you wouldn't have been able to afford the insurance on a Hemi Cuda.

As for whining about what tires they came on, well, let me offer you some cheese with that. Most of those old muscle cars, along with MSD's are also using new tires. How many cars needed major engine work to get into the 12's? Newer cars do it by reprogramming the computer, swapping a few pieces here or there. Don't even have to get dirty.

As for my Suzuki, you think you can outrun my 125 HP econobox? There was talk about T-Buckets and Cobras with blowers. Bring them up to Detroit. I'll run them for any amount they want. I only have one demand. I pick the track . :p

Viking ----My 427 cobra (shell valley car)

My Wifes grandpa was the man who started Shell Valley. To bad he sold it a few years ago. But then again if I went blind and my wife left me I guess I would sell it too. He's a really crazy guy kinda scares me. haha I wouldnt mind seeing your car.

A point that's been missed here....The "real" supercars weren't designed as such, they were based on "family sedan" chassis and had luxobarge engines stuffed in them. They were still real drivers, able to take on actual roads and not fall apart. They were attainable for the average wage-earner without selling his first-born male child and mortgaging the south Forty. I travelled the rural roads of Saskatchewan at great rates of speed in GTX's and Roadrunners, SS Chevy's and the like for years and the wheels stayed on! Try that with your Vipers and Cobras. I've had to pick up the pieces of newer "Racey cars" that weren't built to take the real world.

I know the Ford Futura or Falcon were not deemed muscle cars
But some of those with the 289's and 302's were supposed to
run in the 12 or 13 sec class. I could be wrong just what I heard.
Kurt

I would have to say they stopped making muscle cars when plastic started being used instead of steel. late 70's early 80's Period.

I had the prototype 70 Cuda 440+6 and it would chew up any stock Hemi car that Chry had in that year. However--if you put headers on them and some decent tires it could be interesting.

My contribution to the 50 fastest. A page I had made some time back from original roadtests.
http://roadtests.tripod.com/

A link to a page I made up some time back. Original roadtest results from mgazines back in the day.
Doug

http://roadtests.tripod.com/

Hey, not to cause confusion but till the introduction of the Dodge Viper, it was considered that 1970 was the breakwater or high point of the factory muscle car craze, and prior to the introduction of the Dodge Viper there were only 2 Brands or types of rides that made 12 sec passes in legitimate show room stock configuration with the quickest runnin a 12.61@111.66mph. admittedly this list does not include a number of the factory and after market tuner cars of that and the present day. These were all, anybody could buy, factory show room stock hot rods w/o tuner tricks or sticky tires.
#1) 1970 Stage 2 455 Buick Gran Sport GSX Skylark; Stage 2 455 4 spd m-22 trans w/3.64 gear on 15'' poly glass tires. 12.61@111.66 w/ 390bhp/526lbft TQ rate.
#2) 1970 Stage 1 455 Buick GSX Gran Sport; otherwise equiped just as was the #1 car 12.73@109.71 w/370bhp/515lbft TQ rate.
#3) 1970 Stage 1 455 Gran Sport Skylark also with the remaining equipment as were the 1st 2. 12.88@107.83 w/360bhp/510lbft TQ rate.
#4) 1970 Plymouth Barracuda 426 Hemi 4spd w/4.10. 12.91@109.51 w/ 425bhp/485lbft TQ rate.
#5) 1970 LS6 454 Chevelle 4spd M-22 w/ 4.10. 13.19@106.11 w/450bhp/485lbft TQ rate.
#6) 1970 LS6 454 Corvette Coupe 4spd M-22 w/4.10 13.27@108.97 w/450bhp/485lbft TQ rate.
#7) 1970 W30 Hurst Oldsmobile 442 455/TH400 auto w/3.91. 13.38@105.72 w/390bhp/500lbft TQ rate.
#8) 1970 GTO Judge 455/M-22 4spd w/3.91. 13.44@107.88 w/390bhp/500lbft TQ
#9) 1970 440 6 pack Super Bee 440/4spd w/3.91. 13.48@108.22 w/390bhp/490lbft TQ rate.
#10) 1970 Torino Cobra SCJ 429 385(Dove inline valve headed, not the famed 429 Boss 429) series/4spd w/4.33 13.66@104.33 w/375bhp/480lbft TQ rate.

In case u have some doubt as to Buick ever having the quickest or fastest offering of the domestics for any maker,let alone GM; a little GM Corporate structure History Lesson.
Buick is the PARENT AND FOUNDING DIVISION of General Motors. GM was Founded in 1908 by William (Billy) Durant Jr. under the BUICK Name, It's 1st aquisition was the Company Of Ransom Olds early the next year, and in that Year Buick won the indy 500 with a 622 cube inline 4 cyl engine in the famed Buick Bug, (also known as the Buick Special) w/ and average speed thru the race of 103 mph.
The Chevrolet Division( to produce an entry level auto bridgeing the gap between fords Model A/ Model T and the top luxo Buicks and Olds'), and GMC( to produce ALL truck/bus chasis vehicles, which is yet its mantra, other divisions are allowed to affix their name plate to said vehicles; predominantly Chevrolet but ALL are actually produced by GMC Division. GMC stands for GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION, as in Corporate production.)were created by Buick out of existing BUICK facilities with existing Buick and Oldsmobile employees. The terms of which led to the great 1939 sit down auto strike in Flint, Michigan which resulted in the creation of the UAW.
Cadillac, which was formerly Cadillac AND Lassalle before their aquisition by GM were aquisitions was aquired for a number of reasons, most importantly the aquisition of most of the production of the 1st viable automotive electric starter produced by the Dayton Electric Company of Dayton Ohio, later to b known as DELCO after IT too was aquired by GM. At this time of aquisitions Louis Chevrolet was still an engineer(then known as Journeyman Plumbers) at FORD. Charles Kettering, the owner of Dayton Electric Company parlayed his companies aquisition into a CEO ship at Buick and funding to found GMI, General Motors Institute, then brought(read that BOUGHT) over his friend Louis Chevrolet to head up his creation of the Chevrolet Division from Ford. Charles Kettering's CEO ship at Buick followed that of W.P. Chrysler who went on to found Mopar. Cadillac, GM's now flagship Luxury offerings is actually only a name plate and has been so long as its been a GM division, the chasis, chasis components and final assembly are BUICK Productions while the power train(engine n trans) are the production of Oldsmobile/Hydramatic Division. BTW Contrary to popular Belief, Oldsmobile Division, always GM's dedicated R and D Division is STILL at GM, u just now know it as SATURN. The only GM facility that has the Saturn Logo on it is the Springhill Tn facilities which does final assembly ONLY, all other facilities of the division are yet nomenclature like Buicks, as B O C with the O standing for Oldsmobile, and the C replacing the old P for Pontiac which is now a Joint division useing production from both the B O C and the Chevrolet GMC Group, the only GM division that does in fact.
Of the GM divisions there r but 3 that are NOT aquisitions, Chevrolet, GMC, and GMAC, all others, including Buick the parent and founder are aquisitions, most of them HOSTILE in fact, and of those aquisitions Pontiac is the only one that did not come lock stock and barrell with the NAME and the Trademarks of the original Company, Originally Pontiac was called OAKLAND, a company which purchased its engines from Chevrolet and it remaining drivetrain components from Buick, building only a chasis and a body, they were "tricked" into producing a PONTIAC Model FOR GM afterwhich GM incorporated that brand under the GM banner and then forced Oakland out of existance by refusing to sell them any further parts.
The reason the Gran Sport Models were not known very much of their potential as HOT RODS was directly attributable to the hierarchy of Buick Division placing little if any effort in advertisement for these models since it was considered outside their aimed image as a hgh class responsible vehicles for responsible buyers. The GS's of the late 60's and early 70's were not the 1st nor the last time when the quickest thing out of GM was Buick and or Buick Powered, same was true 84-87 model years with the famed Grand National, and in 89 with the Pontiac Trans Am GTA which used the power train from the 87 Buick GNX. hmmmmmmmmm, imagine that.... By the way, the quickest thing out of GM for 1968 and 1969 were either a Stage 2 400 Buick GS Skylark or a Hurt Olds 442, nothing from Chevrolet OR Pontiac. tho the latters got the most advertisement and acclaim from GM.

Its funny how this argument rags on. Wasn't this suspose to be about the 50 fastest musclecars? As a rule of thumb the musclecar era ended in 1972. Here cut and pasted from the link above, the quickest real times turned by a '70 Stage 1. I call BS on anything quicker thats reported to be stock. Modern tires, cheater cams, aftermarket ignition, recalibrated dist. do not count as stock in my books. Oh, was the Stage 2 equipment not over the counter goods either installed by the dealer or the person buying them? That I wouldn't consider stock
This is not a knock against Buick by the way, one of my favorites is the '69 GS400.

1970 Buick Skylark GS (HC)
455ci/360hp, 4spd, 3.64, 0-60 - n/a, 1/4 mile - 13.72 @ 105.01mph
1970 Buick Skylark GS (MT)
455ci/360hp, 3spd auto, 3.64, 1/4 mile - 13.38 @ 105mph
1970 Buick Skylark GSX (CC)
445ci/360hp, 3spd auto, 3.64, 0-60 - n/a, 1/4 mile - 14.28 @ 99.77mph

This is an interesting discussion/argument but the truth is, very few people back in the day drove them around or raced them like they were delivered. If you had a muscle car or even some of the sleepers that were not technically muscle cars, chances are you put bigger tires on in, even if they were Polyglas GTs or some manner of cheater slicks, they were still far better than what came from the factory. Next step most people did was put headers on them and get rid of the tail pipes dumping the exhaust right in front of the rear axle. When you went to the track, you opened the headers and bolted slicks on if you had them. I have mentioned before, I had a '68 Biscayne 427/425, 4 Spd, 4.10 gears in 1971. The Magazine test had it running 13.65 with 4.56 gears. With just a set of 7" slicks mine ran 13.40 the first time I took it to the track. Later with a set of headers it ran 13 flat. If I knew how to drive it better I know it would have easily run 12.80s at least. I never could get the launch just right without bogging it. That is completely stock except for headers and slicks. I drove this car every day to work, to the store, and on dates. I drove it in the snow in the winter and on 100 degree days in the summer. It was the only car I had at the time. I'm not sure what my point is except to say that judging the cars from "back in the day" only as they came from the factory is not reality, because that is not how we drove them. There were guys that came out to the Friday night cruise with pure stock show room cars thinking they were hot stuff, but after being embarrassed a few times by supposedly lesser cars, they learned.

Thanks for the great memories

Pat

I'm with Pat on this one, never had one of the "fastest muscle cars" when they were new.... But when the 67's came out I had a little '56 Ford 2 door sedan with a 406 tri-power, headers, 4 speed, cheater slicks, dog dish hub caps..... The new "muscle cars" were easy pickin's on the street, actually hunting them down for a little action almost became a second source of income!!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL: A bunch of them would always show up at Thunder Valley on Sunday to run the Pure Stock class and most all were in the 14's, when someone got into the 13's the owner would just get all giggly. One of them, Jeff Nelson, got a big block Chevelle in '68 and installed headers, slicks, and a good tune-up and ran 12.80's.... Was a guy named Mark something with a GS Buick that was in the mid 13's....

Guess I wasn't there the day all the 12 second stockers showed up...;););)

As has always been the case with Buick Hot Rods, and to a degree, those from Oldsmobile they r seldom given credit for their performance variants for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that they are Oldsmobiles and Buicks, AND to a great degree this is just How GM Wanted it, Hot Rods and Muscle cars were essentually always intended to stay within the realm of Pontiac, their intemediate entry vehicle line and Chevrolet, their entry level vehicle division...The fact of the matter is that Chevrolet, GMC were created out of exiting Buick facilities with existing Buick and Oldsmobile workers, while but for those workers essentually forced over to the Pontiac line from the original Oakland Motorcars, and the fact that a dedicated plant was BUILT for that division for its incorporation The whole of GM is essentually based in BUICK and their dedicated R and D division is and always has been OLDSMOBILE which what is left of u now know as Saturn. This isn't fiction or fantasy, its simply the facts, facts that are taught here in Flint, Michigan; the home and Birthplace of Buick, the parent n founder, as well as Chevrolet/GMC and the UAW; are taught as a matter of course of the city's history begining in Elementary school, indeed as history of the state of Michigan as a whole. Outside of Michigan much of the info taken as fact is for the most part a mix of inuendo, speculation and often outright fabrication by those who actually haven't the 1st clue about how and why the domestic auto industry in Michigan came to be.
Of ALL domestic producers of HOT RODS or factory muscle cars, Buick and Oldsmobile, along with Wisconsin's American Mtrs have to b the most overlooked and under rated. I have an Uncle, from whom i got my 1st car while still growing up in St. Louis where i was born who worked for GM at the then Corvette assembly after it 1st moved from here in Flint where it was 1st opened on Van Slyke Road, which is now part of GMC Truck And Bus Division and the site of the Corvette 50th anniversery celebration which i attended at the time driving my 2cnd corvette, a 2001 Targa Hatch Z51 Performance option car. He was the 1st PERSON of ANY COLOR that i actually KNEW who owned a Brand new Corvette. Additionally as a teen growing up in Milwaukee after relocating there at age 14, my Father worked for 1st International Harvester, THEN American Motors, and later after relocating to Detroit Chrysler from which he retired, add to that the fact that i am a graduate of GMI(General Motors Institute/Kettering University) in January of 1995,completion was at the end of the 94 fall/winter semesters in December of 94. and i have LIVED here in Flint since 1977 when i began to learn to use and construct nitrous oxide systems for use in CARS. All this add to a life long love of Hot Rodding " street cars" and actually doin so since 1963 and u MAY begin to understand how i KNOW the facts of what i say here and in other threads about the domestic auto industry indeed the auto industry world wide.
What i say in based not soley on reading and written research but the actual experience of going to the tracks and racing on the streets with and against the cars most folk only WISH they had ever had access to let alone drove or raced against AT THE TIME THEY WERE BEING PRODUCED, so rather than just what someone SAID they could or would do in whatever configuration they may have appeared, i was actually THERE and saw the diff tween claim and actuallity.
For instance, the guy posting about the Buicks, failed to note that all three of the Buicks i listed were 4spd, not automatics, ALL had the 3.64 Posi rear and the factory 15" magnum 500 Buick wheels, 7" on the rear 6" on the front, also only the Base GS Stage 1 455 Gran Sports were rated at 360bhp/510lbft, and even those actually MADE closer to 425 than 360, ALL GSX cars, which the top 2 were were rated at a minimum of 370bhp/515lbtq for the Stage 1 cars which actually made at LEAST 425 or more, and ALL Stage 2 GSX cars, the Stage 2 option could only b had in a 68-72 GSX, 68 n 69 cars were 400's and rated at 370BHP and made closer to 425 as did the 70-72 455 Stage 1 GSX cars and was RATED at 390bhp/526lbft but actually made an HONEST 500 n thats with exhaust HEADERS that came factory STOCK on these cars built by Kustom Speed equipment also HERE IN Flint, these car were and are yet know as HEMI KILLERS which is exactly what they did as i have witnessed over many a year, put ANY Stock Hemi Variation against ANY Stage 2 GSX and unless the Buick had an atrocious driver and or broke at some point the Hemi car is left suckin wind by several lenths. Once at Green Valley Raceway in 71, NOW the TEXAS MOTORPLEX i WATCHED a HEMI CHALLENGER on Cheater slicks get OUT on a Stage 2 GSX car, an Appollo White car, the rarest of the GSX color Options(most popular was the saturn Yellow) and get ran down and passed by half track on polyglass tires and stock wheels, granted the Buick driver was a better driver of his ride than was the hemi driver but still, he got caught and beat. Why do i remeber this ? Because at the time even tho i was already a Buick V8 Power fanatic i bet 100 bucks on the Hemi car, mainly because it was on slicks, and LOST, in the Military shortly after Viet Nam at the time u may well imagine what a big loss that was with a wife and a young child...THATS why i remeber....
Automatic GS cars, like automatic stangs of the present day were in general an average of 1/2 sec slower than were the 4 gear cars and were stock with a 3.36 posi, even among the GSX Varients.
SO at the risk of t'n off a whole lotta folk, i again reinterate that at the breakwater of factory muscle car production which is universally acdepted as 1970 the TOP 3 QUICKEST factory STOCK offerings from anyone were 4gear Grans Sport 455 Stage 2 and Stage 1 cars, the fact that they are also among the very rarest of Hot Rods and so overlooked accounts for the misleading info out there about these cars. The fact of their actually performance accounts for why i yet am a fanatic for hot rod motivation with a BIG BLOCK Buick 2cnd generation V8 and why THAT is what power my BMW 3 series. 9.73@138.71 on a 26 x 10.5 x 15 MT ET STREET with a Production based 70 STAGE 1 455 w/ a 3.50 gear a 3500 converter, TH400 w/o brake with a flat tappet Hydraulic camshaft and a 6000rpm max shift point in a 3700 race weight ride with a full 3" exhaust including tail pipes is kinda hard to argue with i say, even when u account for 300bhp of spray. BTW, the record for a Stage 2 Base 455 on gasoline with 1 single carb on a hgh rise intake, JUST LIKE THE ONE I RUN ON MY Bmer, 7.64@176.22mph all motor @ 3270lbs, 86 Somerset Regal customer out of TA Performance, the owner of which has a single carbed gasoline all metal 69 Buick Sylark wagon with a Stage 1 based mtr and runs 8.8's like clock work also ALL MTR, not to mention a fully loaded, fully dressed including tail pipes, 2.25" that regularly runs low 11's hgh 10's, also ALL MTR. Remeber, before the 1st ZR1 vettes in the early 90's, the fastest thing out of GM was an 89 Pontiac Trans Am GTA, powered by a 3.8 litre V6 Turbo charged Buick. If u have an open mind and are willing to learn, check the web site for the annual Buick Nationals event at Beach Bend Raceway outside Bowling Green Kentucky every year. and NOW that there are aftermarket heads and Blocks for Big Block Buick V8's in both iron and aluminum jus like the other more popular brands they effectively have the same limitations as other hot rod brands, ur wallet...I BUILT a 573 cube all aftermarket Stage 2 based 455, carb to pan fan to flywheel for under 14k and bought ALL parts new, 764bhp@5740 685lbft TQ@4240 on 92 octane sunnoco n less than .650 of lift. As i say, if ya wanna argue actually real world numbers, those of Buick are kinda hard to argue with. Doesn't mean they are the baddest or the best, certainly not for everyone, does mean they are a whole lot better and badder than they are given credit for, except after i wax someone n lift off the Bmers hood to expose a 464 cube single carb production block n head V8 Stage 1 Buick V8.
Lest anyone think i am bragging or trying to belittle anyones pref in make or model, im not
I consider my success over the years with B O P a function of a whole lot of work, a whole lot of mistakes and a whole lot of money spent, multiplied by immesurable blessings and even a lil luck, and tho im a died in the wool B O P Fanatic I LOVE ANYTHING THAT ANYONE DECIDES TO HOT ROD and race, nor do i play any one of em cheap, i jus try to get them to play ME cheap. Cheating? No need, i was taught by those who started me hot rodding, that u never have to cheat to win, jus know enuff to insure they can't cheat YOU...enforces the old addage, winners never cheat and cheaters never win.

as someone else said in this thread, i remember, from having the experience of and with MOST of the rides in contention in this "muscle car" debate. I have owned some of the rarests of the contention, as well as others that may not have been as popular or prolific. Say Ford, Chevy, Mopar, Dodge etc...every1 knows their fav, yr, mke n model...of those, i have owned a number that were, in my view, stock, really competetive in my aim of drag racing. Of those that i moded, they all ran better, but in my early days, they also BROKE more often.
Looking back on what i was able to do, and what i actually saw accomplished, then it seemed faster, quicker than it actually was in retrospect. Whats more astoudning is that there is yet no realy true improvement in what u can do with a new hgh perf car than what u could back then......there have been unbelieveable advances in SAFTY, COMFORT, EFFICIENCY, but of the STOCK offerings in performance out there now...anything u will see in any simblance of a stock or street classification is no more than 4 secs quicker than showroom stock, same as there were the "muscle cars" we all get wound up about here.
Given that wide range of possibilities of experience and memory, ALL the claims we ALL have made here are entirely possible and i'm sure, somewhere, can b backed up but SOME sort of documentation, valid or otherwise, since in THIS debate, "validity" is relative, everything doesn't work for everyone, thus we're never going to agree.
In this modern day motorsport/musclecar scene filled with dedicated, experienced, even educated car crafters and auto enthusiasts, many were not even a consideration at the END of the muscle car craze let alone during it. I had my nose in it before it started. As im sure folk my age at the time believed, the younger of us believe they KNOW better, even of that which happened before they COULD KNOW anything.
The CONFUSION is they, like us, fail to destishish between what we KNOW and what we THINK or BELIEVE..... the honest of us will admit the former is oft as not far diff than the latter 2. U only KNOW what u experience, and even that is subject to interpretation, everything else is what u THINK or BELIEVE. IE: u can learn all the skills, have all the equipment to build an
engine, until u actually build one, u don't KNOW u can,let alone KNOW u did, at best u BELIEVE U CAN. U can't KNOW something happened unless u experienced it, u can only believe or disbelieve what u may hear or read, based on what u THINK.
1st, unless they produce an actual time slip, rather than a published account, accept that ANY MAG, or MANUFACTURER'S et claim is ''adjusted'' '' corrected''. Unless u manually verified a car was stock, it wasn't...however, u must allow in that for the freaks, u know, the ones built on the good days with the good parts that jus blow the rest away w/o mods...they r out there and they always have been. I have one, a stone stock, down to run flat tires 2001 C5 Targa Hatch auto. IT SHOULD NOT B AS QUICK AS IT IS on average, let alone as quick as its been, i bought it new, changed tires, brakes, oil, air filter and odometer reading @ 97k i can clock 13.05 @ 106mph et's, in OD stab and steer, driving the car, i have been as quick as 12.87@111.66mph, lit em up, bounced off the 6k limiter into 2cnd, it hooked. i have also ran a string of mid 12.9's drivin the car, overall, even after 97k i'm still unable to help the car much by drivin it, couple 10ths. to put that in perspected, the avg of my car runs mid to hgh 13's, even with the Z51 perf option package my car has(gives the 350bhp auto base engine 22bhp w/ 3.15 vs 2.78 FD) in the hands of the avg driver. Man: claims low 13's, street claims hgh 12's, mags claim mid 12's, mine is a bonofide freak, it ain't ever ran a mid 12 or even felt like it did, i was shocked at the 12.87, matter of fact i was shocked at the 1st 12 anything..... O yea guys, im NOT JUST a BOP fanatic, or even essentually a car fanatic, im a DRAG RACE fanatic 1st....hell i built and drag race my Bike, ZX11D Kawasaki Ninja, like i say, always had my nose in it....the Vette is my 2cnd, avg 28mpg hyway too!!!!! As for the Buick's, I have seen 2 Stage 2 GS Buick Skylarks run, a 69 Stage 2 400, and a 70 Stage 2 455, both 4gear, both on stock wheels and tires when relatively new. Both were CLAIMING stock, the latter was a certified teched stock at a meet, the 69 was a drive in with an aftermarket bell and ran competition at a grudge match meet, both ran 12.8's in 1972....mention of the aftermarket bell since at the time only SOLID LIFTER stick shift stockers required a safty bell to race stock, and ALL Stage 1 and Stage 2 Buicks were hydraulic lifter..ALL Stage 2 cars CAME with thin wall ''tubular exhaust'' (headers)... 1st i heard of em called HEMI KILLERS.
All this to kinda put a perspective on this topic so that there is room for the perspectives of all.

as someone said, few if any folk who owned the sleepers and muscle cars of the day ran them in showroom stock condition, and that applies to the mag articles as well, why ya think they called em CHEATER slicks ?
everyone cheated even if only a lil or THOUGHT they did...Like the 69 Stage 2 GS i saw race. It was actually supposed to have been a class meet but so many cars came that could not tech out they ran a competition/exhibition class as well....
car came drivin in; always being a Buick Fanatic i was quick to check the car out. once i saw the blow proof aftermarket Bell i knew before hearing the car that it wasn't likely SHOWROOM STOCK, since the class at the time only rerquired a blow proof if ur car was a solid lifter engine and even the Stage 2 Buicks were hydraulic lifter altho all CAME with tublar exhaust(headers), and he was on what were then called l 60 x 15 Mickey Thompson tires. When i saw a legal stock 70 Stage 2 455 Skylark GS run basically the same time as the 69 Stage 2 400 i was SURE it wasn't stock...tho the owner was one of the best stick shift drag race drivers i have yet to see in my time.....better than ME NOW AND IM DAMN GOOD MYSELF.
this was back in 72 so neither car was all that old...
The 69 car had a ''Hemi Killer" front plate n tho he ran competition he did indeed bust up a couple Hemi cars, a 69 4gear super Bee and a 71 Hemi Challenger auto....
for the chatter who reminded me about all the hop up shenanigans we ALL used back in the day, thanx, it was a point i knew but overlooked...hindsight isn't always 20/20.
Back in the 60's and early 70's most of the time my hot rod was also my only ride, and my drag racing budget was such that most of my performance improvements were wrench n tune rather than after a-market expensive trick of the week Parts, in fact, at the time there were not a whole lotta A-market parts even out there for the BOP's that i prefered and those that were came at an expense greater than those for other more popular brands for the Buicks and Oldsmobiles....
The after market blew up for Pontiac parts jus before the 64 intro of the GTO, Pontiacs were doin well in competition with their famed swiss cheese framed full body stockers, it was damn hard to get off the line with these cars and almost as hard to run em down once ya did get off the line so suppliers really started to produce and advertise hot parts for em.
Which brings to mind another prevalent thing of those days, that being the wealth of FACTORY hot parts for the hot rods of the day, save for headers for instance, u could easily run into the 11's with a Ram Air Tri-power GTO and have the only parts in or on the car that didn't have a Pontiac part number along with wheels and tires....
same goes for the Hemi cars and the Chevy offerings, go back n look up some of the Stock Class records n u get an idea what was possible....
BTW, in STOCK classes u could do whatever inside the engine so long as ya didn't change the total amount of lift available on a factory camshaft, or raise the mechanical compression ratio, or have more than a .030 overbore, essentually anything not VISIBLE was fair game....
To begin with u used to have to run stock tires and wheels in these classes but THAT only lasted a couple seasons into the 60's
After that tires and wheels were ALSO fair game for change, as were traction aid devices. For instance, back in the early 70's a 383 4 gear Road Runner held the G/SM record at 11.44@117mph, and there was a damn VW Bettle that had an O/SM record at 11.19 in modified production. What later became SUPER STOCK, then PRO STOCK.
The famed Motown Missle Challenger went into the mid 9's to set the 71 Pro Stock record and by 73 folk like Jenkin's, Wally Booth, Dyno Don n others had small block v8 cars in the 9's, all steel or mostly all steel anyway. small block Vettes with q-jets in the 10's....

1964 Ford Galaxie 427. My uncle had one, was never beat in a road race. I think I saw in a magazine one time it was listed as 12.7sec 1/4

I can well recall what the 64 427 Galaxies Looked like and ran like on the streets and at the tracks, hell i can recall what the 61-62 406 Galaxies and Starliners looked like and ran like, at the track and as driven on the street. had a competitor; Jacob( shoulda been named Gabriel for the way he used to blow off folks doors most of the time); on the streets back in my early race days who, 1st, with a 62 Galaxie Starliner Coupe, black on black in black, 406 4spd Posi, used to abuse me somethin fierce in my 65 GTO 389 3spd manual posi. Some years later, with my newer 67 W30 4spd tri-power Olds 442 Jacob had aquired a red on red in red 1964 427 4spd posi Galaxie. we ran on street tires and i could get out on em n hold em off by a lenth or so, later, both on cheater slicks(old hard wall 8" ers), he could leave with me and pull off by 2 in 3rd n 4th.
Granted, he wasn't stock or on street tires, but then in truth, since it was always a dealer/owner installation option 66 n 67 for the 442, neither is a tri-power W30 442, and i wasn't on street tires either.
I can recall running well into the 13's with the 442, stock as it was when i bought it, on street tires, so 12.7's with one of those big beasts is well within reason in my humble opinion, most certainly for a "legal Stocker"
Actually my experience with Jacob led to my 1st purchase of a Ford Hot Rod, my 1965 390 4spd posi Ford Galaxie Coupe, which ran pretty decent too me, especially considering all i ever changed was tires, points, plugs, oil, filters, and the odometer reading by a few k miles.
Pat reminded me of the car with his comment about the Fomoco carb he moded, which is what MY Galaxie had on it; Jacob's 62 was Tri-Power, the 64 was 2 x 4v BTW; and Dago reminded me of my experiences with Jacob and his 406 n 427 cars, both of which are fond memories for me, even tho he would whoop on me.... thanx guys....

My uncles was black on black too, they called it the black rocket. As far as I know the only mod he did on it was a hurst shifter. The other thing I think gave him an edge was he used to get it tuned by a local legend engine builder in town and tuning can be an art too.

I had a great surprise the other day, we had just moved the Nova into the garage off flatbed and the mailman was across the street, after everybody left but me (including my uncle) he comes over to check out the car and proceeds to tell me that he has at home the 64 galaxie 427 with auto trans. Too cool.

Red

Agreed Red...too cool indeed, u get to see the car as of yet ?

BTW, as for mods, there were some minor one i recall to Jacob's 62, a lot more so to the 64, includin a rather knarley solid lifter cam, man would that big boat scream on the top side.
When we ran on slicks, i was surprised that it made him enuff diff that he could now LEAVE WITH me stead of 2-3 behind, but i Still THOUGHT i could hold him off, but as soon as he'de hit 3rd, the "big Red" as he called would jus simply began to walk away, screamin like a bashee jus like it did on leave, and the slicks didn't actually STOP the spinning, both of us stick shift but he was smokin the hides a lot more than me. I tried him more than a few times on the stickies, ended up 2 n 4 and a total of 100 in the hole... we ran 6 times, 2 on street tires, 4 on slicks. i won both times on street tires and lost all 4 on the slicks at 25 bucks a pop, so he won his 50 back plus 100 of MY money.

i updated a previous post with documentation concerning how quick the GS and GS/GSX Skylarks were especially with the Stage 2 Options., look back at what a SHOWROOM CONDITION 71 GS Stage 1 did....12.20's @110