BTW Pat, as u may have guessed, i think ur Goat is jus awsome, simply bad azz, wekll thought out and well done if ya don't mind my sayin
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BTW Pat, as u may have guessed, i think ur Goat is jus awsome, simply bad azz, wekll thought out and well done if ya don't mind my sayin
LOVE the Irish diplomacy as well, gotta teach me that one for sure.....
that was my car i built it and painted it .i sold it to some guys from flint it came back to my shop to fit the headers for the short deck blower engine .it was in racing junk up for sale some time ago . i sold the car on 911 with out the engine .i do not know who owns it now last time i seen it look like the way it was sold they did a re cage it .i have done work for some flint guys and sold parts to some of them .i did go on the flint zone but it abit to tuff for me:DQuote:
Originally Posted by MrWizard455
Well guys, I started this about a year ago, and must say I know more about
nitrous now than I did then..Thanks to every one for the info, and especially
Mr Wizzard. Since I posted this I blew the BB up in May 09 and was not using
nitrous, just my fault...
Pat do you think I need nitrous now, or should even think about it, or remove
the plumbing all together? R dobbs
well you could spray some down there if you can find a spot in what ever gear it s not pulling the wheels off the ground :DQuote:
Originally Posted by rdobbs
Now that's a scary thought...I don't wont to be like that guy with
the tractor and backhoe running down the track. I guess I will ease
into this situation...rd
A big hit of nitrous will need to be softened a little. Meaning the bigger the hit the harder it beats your engines internals. So , you want to use a progressive controller also so you can bring the big hit in "softly". Also with a big hit you get traction loss so its another plus to bring it in "softly". With a progressive controller you could have a mild running engine for the street and give it a good dose of nitrous on the track , if your internals are up to snuff.
well i think rdobbs is pulling my chain:D there will be no soft hit in any gear with what he has with out any need for Nos.... to add:rolleyes: if its tune in right:) it could maybe take a 100/150 shot if he s running c16+ fuel but you would be pushing it abit.try it with out before you add the fast way to bust stuff:LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTruckDriver
Well, at least I have a good knowledge now from you guys who know
NOS,,,I think I will plug off the bottle for the time being and do what
Pat said...My ole 57 is just a playtoy, not a drag car, but I still have
that drag race blood in me from years past, and that is almost impossible
to get rid of..Kinda like an alcoholic....I am sure though that I will sooner
or later try the bottle:D
there is no need for the bottle if the belt is on:D . if you think you can find a gear to spray that thing in you let me know:rolleyes:
to reinterate something i previously posted; PROGRESSIVE controllers are best left to hgh dollar, long experience pro race cars and teams who also have a wealth of spray experience with a number of diff engine and driveline combinations, failing THAT, IF u simply MUST use such a system in a predominantly street driven application, do so sparingly. These systems operate via a pulsing of the solenoids which leads to premature burning of the solenoid contacts thus premature failure. This because spray systems work best with a chargeing system with relatively hgh amp out put, IE: when ur system maintains 14+ volts and able to put out AT LEAST 110 amps. Incoporate sytems with hgh power electric fuel pmps, MSD ignitions and the like, not to mention, useing ligts, heaters, stereos ect such as might b the case on the street and u realize the need for such hgh amp output.
Again, ALWAYS use a staged system in a predominantly street driven application, one which ADDS additional spray with each progressive stage. on a throttle switch use the amout that u expect u may w/o blowing the tires away, and or inordinant driveline damage, whatever else in boost u want add in stages after that. I have built systems with as much as 3 stages, and seen systems wuith as many as 4. I do not recommend more than 2 stages in a street oriented system, since this gets u into the same possible problems and failures as would a Staged fogger system with some sort of progressive controller doing the staging, basically, in a wet system, each stage needs 2 solenoids, more noids, more things that can n usually WILL go wrong, jus when u can least afford em to.
Something for those new and or potential spray users, u will always here the non spray users portray spray as somehow a cheat, such comments as, " all throttle, no bottle"; " i don't need no spray "; " what, u afraid to run mtr to mtr ? "...don't buy into that, spray, in this day and age is jus another part/tool to use to go as quick as u can with the least amount of hassle and expenditure, and, most certainly in a street car, have as much driveabilty, MPG and durability as u can. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING achieves all those goals for as little as even the most expensive and intricate spray system, and nothing that does so is as easy to install and maintain, nor install as quickly with common tools.
Nitrous oxide does and can ONLY maximize normal aspiration, it can NOT exceed the max the physical size of the engine is capable of producing given that maximization, the only way to do that is to increase the atmopheric pressure within the inlet (BOOST). Thus spray is and should b still considered NORMALLY ASPIRATED, which is why many hg dollar setups which are turbo charger or supercharger equiped also use SPRAY. the answer to why can't u run straight motor is, I AM running straight motor.... I don't need no bottle, all throttle, no bottle...if u don't NEED spray, WHY are u concerned about whether or not I have it ? and a bottle is STILL ALL throttle, as evidenced by the fact that u can have spray and either or even both of the other predominate power adders, given a durable enuff engine to withstand the power ur able to produce, WHATEVER route u prefer to take to added power. u got an engine that can contain 500bhp n u make 600, its gonna come undone whether u spray, or boost in short order...even if u DON'T use a power adder to do it...simple as that.
In todays hot rodding world, in any competition where spray is allowed, u either have it, or u need it.
Nothing is more disatisfing than for someone with LESS mtr than u have, maybe even LESS car than u come along and spray ya in both eyeballs n blow ya in the weeds, nothing is more of an inexcusable loss either, cause YOU can have it to...
I can build a simple 2 stage wet plate system, dummy proof, including the attendant periphial and safty equipment, as well as the ignition upgrades and knock as much as 2 secs off the et of even an otherwise bone stocker fort well under 2k, think of something else that can do that, or even half that for as much expense, let alone less ?
Besides, u can have a 10 sec mtr, put it in a 12 sec car with a 12 sec driver n ur gonna run 12's, unless its a 12.0 ride, then u MAY run some hgh 11's.
It is almost NEVER the ride with all the latest trick of the week parts n such that ends up king of the street or winnin the class at the track, it is the best working combination that operates the most consistantly. It ain't the fastest car that wins the drag race all the time, but it IS the quickest and most consistant that wins a drag race ALL the time.
Most folk, indeed anyone who rails against spray does so because they FEAR IT and are AFRAID to use it because of that, no matter what they say. Anyone else isn't gonna give a whoot in hell if u do or don't have spray.
Since spray is NOT equal to boost, do NOT get in the mindset that u can whoop all boosted rides with it, if ur up against a well done and operated boosted ride, u might no expect spray to b of some advantage to u, it isn't, the advantage is with the boost, they can exceed the TEP of the physical size of the engine, by a great deal too, u can't do that with spray u can only maximize same. This from a devout spray Junkie, with my hot rods, i treat it like American Express, i don't leave home w/o it.
Hey folks, lets disspell a myth really commonly expoused by many hot rodders, drag racers especially, NO ONE puts an exhaust system and/or sticky D.O.T. tires on a car or anything else to drive on the street unless they intend to RACE it on the street, no one puts RACE fuel in a STREET car with an exhaust unless they plan to race it on the street, even if they only intend to race themselves. If its a ride u ONLY RACE at the track, why would u carry the weight of an exhaust system, n why would u not jus buy a full on race slick ? In fact if its a track only race car, why would u even drive it on the street....right, you wouldn't.
Street Racing is illegal and with good reason, that being illegality offers a measure of control w/o which street racing would get even further out of hand, same as it would at the track w/o some measure of control. When u go to the track u PAY them to enforce that measure of control and safty for you, if u wanna race on the street u must offer that measure of ciontrol and safty for urself. If ur unwilling and or unable to do that but still race on the street, YOU ARE NOT A STREET RACER, you are Street Stupid, a Street Squirell, a plain old garden variety wreckless driver.
I had my 1st drag race on the street, that was July 5, 1963, as far as in my own ride that i wrenched AND drove, and i LOST, money too( i do not race for free, unless its a sand bag to set up a race for money, that only happens when i go to the track. My last drag race was on the street and i lost THAT too, money too. between the 1st and last drag race i have had i have always done the predominance of my racing on the street, i have been busted dead to rights, before, during and after a race on the street, worst i ever had was a defective eqipment for slicks, or unsafe start, or speeding, and never all three or even 2 of the three at any one time.
1st of all, if ur safty conscience, as well u should b, even more so than at the track in fact and avoid the fast n furious Movie stunt activity, the only cop thats gonna catch you or even know when or where to look to catch you is going to b one who is or has been a street racer themselves at least as a spectator. When and if u get busted, step up to the responsibilty u took to race on the street, don't run or try to, don't disrespect the officer or his or her intelligence with lies and excuses, with that u can always engage such an officer and find some common ground some humor and less of a hit in what they do and or write u for.
There is no NEW thing that a policeman who catches u racing on the street can do to you, not a single one, they could always TAKE your ride, put you in Jail, have ur lic revoked etc. What does happens when and if u r busted racing on the street is and always has been determined by how the officer writes it up, and what always dictates that is where, when, and how ur busted and most important, ur demeanor with the responding officer who busts you, act like a mature adult, be respectful and engaging and u may even jus get an admonishment, and sent on your way, this has been the bulk of my problems on those times i have been busted.
Once i was busted after winnin a 200 buck race, I asked the officer if it was alright to collect my winnings, his answer was " Yea, ur gonna need it to pay this citation ima give ya " said with a big grin, BTW im Black, he was southern white and a STATE TROOPER, in Arkansas, in the 70's.....
The end game is that Street racing, indeed racing at all is NOT for everyone, nothing is, and even among those for whom it is, " too much of anything is no good for ANYBODY ". If You are gonna race the street, don't boo whoo n whine when ya get caught, no matter what happens to ya, u deserve it, You should have been more careful and or you should have carried urself better with the officer.
:HMMM:well i like build big engine and like to drive them on the street 30 miles a day on weekends i can not afford a BMW or a new zo6 or porsche ferrari etc.i use soft tires so they go some that strait thru the gears and i do not kill my self. i am no diffrent then the guy that has a 42+ off shore boat with two or more big CID bbc pushing past 650hp a engine ask him why ? well why not? i am not the fast furious A$$ hole?/ street squirell but maybe? not going to tow my car 30 miles one way just to run thru the gears at the track?? they are street cars not race cars driving on the street with DoT tires .i been playing with the same cars for 30 years. maybe i am a fool but i do not need no Nos. cars run fine with out as they are street car and if the belt is on i am good and the other car needs no blower or Nos:3dSMILE:. no need to see if the bottle is full:3dSMILE: i not saying any thing about street racing:3dSMILE:how .were .or when as i am using my real name on here:3dSMILE:i am just a older guy now that just like s to here the sound of a good running BBC V8 on a nice day rolling down the road .you roll up on me nothing going to happen :)
Guys trying to get info on NOS , not preaching.http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/a...tDeadHorse.gif
you know which side of the fence `im on :)
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...9/DSCN1719.jpg
no preaching intended if im who is refered to by that comment, jus passin along what i KNOW in a manner that makes it plain that i KNOW what im talkin about from actual hands on experience as well as education not just regurgitating what i may have heard or read or at least thought i did.
for the guy who messaged me bout the street squirrels and how he likes to cr, as well as not believeing they need nitrous. Unless u do not plan to race and have the best chance of winning that u can with the least amount of expense, then u DO need spray, its a fact of life in Drag Racin whether on the track or on the street.
As for u being a street squirrel, unlessd u practice the fast n furious style of street roddin/racin, ur not that by a long shot, u may not b nessecarily a street racer but ur certainly at least street savvy and street careful
as for age, i was born 9/11/49 and i been drag racin in my own rides that i wrench since july 5 1963 so like u, im far from a spring chicken in this or anything else....
as for most of the restt of the responses to my posts, some seem genuine others seem like the age old hater crap. Not to worry, let hater do what they do, if i have but 10 haters, i need a way to get at least 10 more, the more i have the better im doin.....
As i said earlier, i been usein spray since 1977, been building, installin n dialin in systems of all types for myself and others since 3 years after that, 1980, 29 years now, AND as i also said, all the mistakes, miscalculations, screw ups and research one can do about sprayin, especially thru a close exhaust system in a primarily street driven ride....been there done that, got the T-Shirt, baseball cap and a brand new shiny key chain.
Surfice it to say if talkin about sprayin was like talkin about roosters and i told ya a rooster dipped snuff, u could look under his left wing n find a new shiny tin of Skoal, a tin of copenhagen under his right wing, bacca dribble on his beek.
Who me :3dSMILE:you taking about me ???Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWizard455
i do not need Nos on my cars a 548 with a blower and a 632 are fine with out . i am ok with being SLow :LOL: you use what gets your nuts off :3dSMILE:i like Nos keeps me fixing blocks heads rebuilding engines when the tune it not right
hey big PAT, ur right and then again, ur also wrong, with 5 n 6 inch mtrs in cars or whatever u certainly may not need any spray, that is unless and untuil u come across someone who has as much mtr , all else equal, AND have spray...
Not trying to garner any more Juice recruits, since the fewer folk that believe in and use it, the better my chances of continuing to have winnin drag race seasons.
As all racers, who actually race, know, no one wins em all, no matter what ya run or how much power u make. SOME1 is gonna hand u ur doors and often times it'll b some1 who isn't as quick or has as much as u do, sometime u will make a blunder and sometimes ur ride jus won't run right for the life of ya and u'll loose, EVEN WITH a power adder.
What i posted here so far is jus a portion of what i KNOW about spray and how best to take safe advantage of same, especially in a predominantly street driven and or muffled exhaust system. Kinda my chance to save some1 some of the mistakes, misconceptions and headaches of usein spray.
Like u i am a normilly aspirated freak and spray is still norminally aspirated, since it CAN NOT EXCEED the amount of power the physical size of the engine and the attendant inlet atmosphere pressure under which said engine is operated.
The great boon of spray and my primary reason for usein it is because i like door slammer street cars, and i mean STREET CARS, not a race car that u DRIVE on the street on occassion after u have gutted and stripped the car within an inch of its life, got race glass on the car front to back thats gonna b cracked all to hell if ya drive it much on the average city streets with all the pot holes, uneven surfaces etc...
ALL my hot rods must do their best performance thru a full exhaust system including tail pipes, on pmp gas AND b able to run at the posted speed limit or above anywhere in the country so long as i maintain adequate fuel supply with any more incident than poor MPG. WITH as many of the creature comfort features as i can reasonably retain.
For instance, the car which this MrWizard455 refers to is a 1988 3 series BMW Post coupe wghich came loaded with every avaialble option save for tilt wheel...
My only deletions of those to date has been the abs braking system,( the wilwood disc brake set-up that i use on the car's 9" ford axle is incompatible with the BMW Anti-loc system and the amount of camshaft event numbers i use r incompatible with power brakes) power brakes and the independant rear suspension, AC, Cruise, pwr windows locks, antenae, moon/sunroof remote fuel door and trunk release etc....
I also deleed the I R S rear suspension in favor of a 9" Ford axle suspended on a Mopar/Mancini Super Stock Leaf spring system sans Pinion snubber w/ Pro Preload Links obstencively for an A-Body Hemi Cuda Factory Race car. The Bmer, its present 100.5" wheel base(stock is 101, i moved the 9" 1/2 inch forward of stock placement)..is close to the 68 A-Body Cuda's 102", and finished weight @ 3517 empty is close to the weight of the A-Body Cuda.I use this because its a tried n true sraight forward, seldom needs adjustment sytem that only cost 899.00 for the whole kit, another 540 for the disc brake kit, as far as the axle itself i have moser 31 splines, Strange Alum Center section w/3.50 gear n Ford Track Loc Posi for a full size F-150, close as ya get to a locker w/o actually havein one. W/spray u can have a mtr with a TEP to support 1k BHP, make it make 5-600 of that on mtr which would make for a Mild mannered Big Block spray out ur remaining 4-500 hp on demand. end up with a pmp gas friendly mtr, w/ great duarbility n life, reasonable MPG and quite a bit more drivability than had u made the whole 1k hp on mtr alone.
ALL MY hot rods, are pmp gas street vehicles, all 4 have SOME Spray,Except my bike. 95 Kawasaki ZX11D Ninja, Muzzy Full powder coated exh w/ 1.5 prim Headers, Super Bike Mike 1109CC Kit( stock ZX11 is 1049CC) Mikuni 42mm flat slide carbs, stock ignition.
1).040 over 1970 Stage1 455 Buick, Stock Rods, forged flat top pistons(to maintain the stock 10-1 comp) Coan TH400 Race -/Brake trans w/2.38 1st gear(stock is 2.20). 3500 RPM Custom built balloon plate verter, custom steel D-Shaft, 9" Ford axle w/3.5, KB/TA Dominator intake, modified NOS 2 Stage Big Shot wet plate system, 1050 Holley Dom carb. flat tappet hyd cam w/ Rhodes lifters,1.65 shaft roller rockers(stock is 1.52) .523/.542 296/302 105/105, 3" stainless steel muffless catless dual exhaust w/ 4" resonator tips n X-pipe, Total 125 1st stage + 175 add on 2cnd stage=300. 10" Weld Drag Lite Classics x 15" rear 3.5"x 15 frnt 26 x 10.5 x 15 MT ET Streets, MSD 7al3 Ign. 1988 BMW 327AI Post Coupe.
2) Pontiac 455 H.O. stock super duty rods n nodular iron crank, balanced, forged 9-1 Ross pistons, ported/CC'd Pontiac V8 6H heads w/ 2.11 x 1.71 valves, Solid flat tappet .587/.593 298/304 105/106, Tremec TKO 600 5spd man trans(came w/ Borg Warner ST10 4spd, 2.43 1st) 2.67 1st x .64 5th OD, 3.08 geared corp 8.5 GM w/ Moser 28's,Moroso Brute Strenth Posi, comp engineering C-Clip elim kt, 10"weld Drag Lite Classics x 15", 3.5 x 15 frnt, 28 x 11.5 x 15 MT ET Streets. 2 Stage NOS Cheater based spray 100 1st stage 150 add on 2cnd stage, TQ'er II int, 830cfm Holley Race, 1.5 Harland Sharp Roller Rockers,3" stainless steel exh w/H pipe, 3" x 3" Flowmaster muffs w/Tail Pipes, MSD 7al2 Ignition w/ MSD 3step retard module, dial adjus 2step rpm module. 1977 455 H.O. WS6 Pontiac Trans Am.
3) 403" Olds,Hyd .520/.542 298/304 108/110 Edelbrock SBO int, edelbrock 750 elec chke carb,shvd/pr 4A hds , 7/8" prim Headman Headers, 3" Stainless Steel Dual Exh w/ 3" x 3" flowmasters n X-Pipe, 3500 converter ,TH350, 3.08 Posi GM Corp 8.5 axle, 2 stage super power shot based spray 50 1st stage 100 add on 2cnd stage, Comp Ultra Roller Rockers w/ screw in studs n guide plates, 7 x 15 rear 6 x 15 frnt Buick Riv/225 steel sport wheels, BFG 275 x 60r x 15 T/A Radials rear. MSD 6al2 digital ign w/ MSD 3step retard module. 1978 Buick Lesabre Custonm 4dr Sedan.
4) 400 + .030 SBC, 2.5x1.6 Pro 1 Iron SRT Heads, Edelbrock chrome plated 1 5/8 shorty headers, Edelbrock EPS Intake,750 Edebrock elec choke carb, 0-deck KB Forged Alum pistons, Crane 1.5 full roller rockers,Manley 6" H-Beam Forged steel rods, indexed n prep'd stock crank, 288/292 490/490 110/112 hyd cam w/ Rhodes lifters, stock alum wheels w 275 x 60r x 15 BFG TA Radials, single stage NOS Cheater wet plate w/150hp set, 8.5 GM Corp axle w/ 3.42 posi, 2500rpm converter, MSD 6al2 Digital ign. 1992 Chevy Sliverado lng bx std cab.
hey just PAT OK ?:3dSMILE: well i am right and not wrong they are my cars :3dSMILE:.i do build and machine engine s every day :yes i do know you can roll out and spray as you go and get off the line with a smaller engine .and get a better times. maybe? but i like building BIG ENGINES,i like to keep my post short and to the point .
This thread is dead, thanks
Dead and buried like the unsolicited Pontiac posts.
Dangerous info too.
yes check it ....put a fork in it ... let me see yep it done...well maybe well done
Pat...my post are long so as to not leave room for misconception or misunderstanding about what i mean n where im coming from.
u seem somewhat offended because i told u that u either have or need spray in this day and age.
Many folk don't like to hear this and jus as many do not believe it, its a fact none the less...Just as i said, u can build what ya want, how ya want, n put it in whatever ya want with whatever periphial equipment that u might consider that u need, may b BAD AZZ too...yet still sooner or later u'll come across someone who HAS LESS than YOU and often in less car than u r, hit ya in ur eyeballs with spray n turn ya out, ...and im not sayin this cause im a spray junkie, as i say, in drag racin its a fact of racin life, I too machine and build, wrench and tune my engines, and i have done all manner of same both for myself as well as others since i started in 1963 with MY 1st, im good at it too, if for no more than a wealth of experience both racin with n racin against all the other brands outside my pref.
1st time i got hit with spray was 74, I had the more car, bigger stronger mtr and in fact the guy was carrying 3 passengers to my solo ridin, blew me in the weeds.
2cnd time was 75, same thing, the last time before i JOINED EM since i couldn't LICK em was 77 and that too was the same situation as was the 1st 2.
I believed at 1st as u do now that i didn't need any spray, in fact didn't even have a clue what was goin on, IF u keep racin the same that happened to me is gonna happen to YOU. as i say, ur gonna run across someone who has less than u in mtr AND overall car and they r jus gonna spray ya and hand u ur doors, as has been the case eventually with everyone including myself who has made the bold statement that they don't need any spray.
Thge simple fact of the matter is that as long as ur normnally aspirated u can never hope to achieve the MAX THERMAL EFFICIENCY potential of ur mtr, no matter what ya do to it, too many uncontrollable variables in actual operation, with spray u can easily achieve it, cheaply too, without buildin so radical an engine, thus, as i say, someone who has as large a mtr as u is gonna hit ya in the shorts with the gas n ur gonna b suckin wind n readin lic plates...as i say...no offense, just fact...
By the By Big Pat, not a few folk run Blowers and or turbos AND spray, reason being....they know the spray is a fact of life and a cheap easy way to maximize the power u produce on the mtr w/o cost to what ya gain with the turbo or the huffers, AND, tho the positive displacement roots type systems actually add MORE cubes to the engines capacity, so do centrifical or non positive displacement blowers and turbos which are ALL none positive displacement, as in they don't displace the total or positive volume of their compressor stage.
Like u say, to each his or her own, and the real truth is that i don't really care for spray or ANY power adder in fact, its just that i do not allow my distaste for them or adversion to em blind me to their potential, any more than i let my avid use of spray blind me to the draw backs of same, the simple reasons that i use spray are 1) it works!!! and there is nothing that can b done to ur ride for the cost of even the most advanced spray system thats gonna make half as much diff in performance, not to mention its goin to b MORE DIFFICULT and tech intense to install and properly operate. 2)I can build an exceedinly MILD engine as far as normally aspirated power production( i usually try to keep my engines tween the 1hp to 1.25hp per cube range since past this drivability, MPG and durability fall drastically if this is power production on mtr alone) tho when in use the drivability, durability and MPG u get with spray is exactly the same as would b with the engine makin that amount of power w/o spray and usually the launch traction is a bit worse if ya try to leave on too much. BUT, this i ONLY ON DEMAND and most even pro race cars are driven relatively little at peak power productions in drag racing.
W/O spray, and or with another power adder, the engine experiences the exact same load at the exact same rpm no matter what u do, not the case with spray...only on demand and spray is not as smooth a power delivery as is a turbo, but its less brutal than is a roots or positive displacement power adder w/o the ability to acheive the power numbers of either one tho, not by itself anyway.... as i say, i see the plus and minus of spray, always have, this is in part why i have been so successful in its use, i never over estimate it, or under estimate what the other guy uses. In drag racin, especially on the street, it is and always has been, run what ya brung n hope ya brought enuff, these days if ya didn't bring any spray,. its jus as likely as not that ya didn't bring enuff, spray is an advantage that must b overcome and its not nearly as easy an advantage to overcome or as cheap to do as some seem to imply.
nope not offended by you . like i said i happy running slow. i see the bad side of Nos when thing go wrong .i do not wast time talking anyone out of Nos .it is just more work for me to fix the bad run . i machine engines .more work for me.hey it just pat ok :D OH thanks for telling me about blower engine s i did not know that ;)
i do not like nitrous,i think its a cheap out and if you know how to build a hi po engine why do you need it. just my opinion.
Nitrous is not a universal cure-all for the slows.... Many classes don't even allow a bottle to be in the car, let alone be used.... As for the street, too easy to overpower the tires without nitrous on most of the lousy streets, unless you're in to big smoky burnouts...
I've ran with it and ran without it.... when set up correctly with a quality system and controllers and used at a moderate level it is safe, but it's certainly not the only way to go fast!!!! To imply that you can't win a race without it is absurd!!! Horsepower to weight, a properly set up chassis along with a driver that can get off the lights and keep the car in the groove is still the closest you'll find to a "guaranteed" winner.... I've trailered more then a few sprayed cars when the tuner's desire to go fast overpowered the available traction, and/or the driver's abilities!!!!!
that s the great thing about a blower or turbo bottle is all ways full .i do not race on the street ;).i had guys try me with smaller engines on the bottle . they just do not get it till they get a ass whipping with a blower beltQuote:
Originally Posted by Louey
Pat, sure u didn't know somethin i said about blowers......NOT!!!
Stude, ur right about spray being a cheap out... as i often say there is absolutely NO SINGLE addition u can make to a motor vehicle that would cost as much as the most hgh tech spray set up(bout 1500 if ya count ignition upgrades) that will make more than a mere fraction of the performance improvement, AND with spray u remain normally aspirated in that u do not increase inlet atmopheric pressure, HOWEVER spray does greatly cool ur inlet charge and as u may well know, cooling the intake charge increases power production and allows u to do so with quite a bit less octane sensitivity.
But a CHEAT, no way. Also I don't care how well u build an engine, especially when using same in operating condition of less than optimu, atmopheric condition and hope to reach the max T E P or thermal efficiency potential of the engine, IE the max amout of power the engine theoretically can make given its size and serviceable rpm range, NOTHING as long as that engine is normally aspirated UNLESS u USE spray.
SPRAY essentually is a T E P maximization addition....in short, u can have an engine size and servicable rpm range that will theoretically support the production of 1200bhp given the durabilityt to contain that amount of power unless u use spray, so long as ur normally aspirated ur never gonna get more than maybe 1000 to 1050bhp out of that engine, minimum of 150 left since othersse u never reach max volumetric efficiency and that being the case u never reach max T E P. However with a turbo or a huffer u can not only maximize but exceed the normally aspirated volumetric efficiency, 2 reasons, 1st u increase the the atmopheric pressure thus u apply more atmopheric pressure within the same time n space, and 2cnd u increase the physical size of the engine at least by the contained/moved volume of ur compressor section( ROOTS type HUFFERS are PD, positive displacement, turbos n centrif blowers r negative displacement, they do not move the total volume of the compressor section).
As of now my max horsepower NA engine===1398 at 10,300 rpm
My best with NOx----they didn't have dynoes that could check it at the time
My best Supercharged engine---they not only didn't have dynoes that could check it but it exceeded all the max theory performance levels thought to be possible at the time
At work I operated vehicles with more than one engine and there levels were known but classified
but if there is going to be a race, I need a little time to put one back together
Just as Pat doesn't try to denegrate spray or discourage anyone from using it became another method works better for him, I don't try to encourage folk to use spray because that works best for me...BUT,as im sure Pat is about his pref, IF i encounter anyone who is using or contemplatin the use of spray, i try to impart to them what i have learned in hopes that they can avoid many if not all the errors that i did, and to dispell the rhetoric and myths about spray resultant of the horror stories that abound about spray use.
The stories are the same as those that used to abound bout huffers and turbos AND for the same reason. Folks employ pray with sub par parts and often MISUSE it to boot. the most prevalent cause of engine failure is to try to apply more boost or spray than the engine is capable of containing safly, besides, if u produce more power than the engine can contain, no matter HOW u produce said power ur gonna lunch the mtr in short order.....IE a 454 cube mtr has a T E P normilly aspirated that will yeild 12-1400bhp depending atmospheric conditions, but if u pull 1200bhp from a factory stock engine it ain't gonna last as long as a snowflake in a blast furnace. If u plan to maximize the TEP of such an engine or even get close to it u need to have an engine that can contain that type of power production and trust me when i say, NO FACTORY HAS EVER made a production engine that will contain the amount of power that the T E P of same indicates it can without extensive modification, especially in the area of strenthening the engine....( super stock class drag racers as a rule get the closet to their engines T E P on gasoline, sometimes into the 80 per centile range, avg is 65-70 per cent tho, check sometime n see how much money they have tied up in that mtr....super stock classes from A-F have engines with a minimum replacement cost of 25k if its a competetive ride in the class, and in the hgher classes, 50-1000k is not as uncommon as u might expect ). The greatest advantages of spray is that it allows u to ON DEMAND max out ur T E P and do so at any point within the servicable RPM band...IE if ur hittin ur mtr with 200bhp of spray, ur gonna get that 200 no mattter if ya hit it at idle or at max rpm if u go W O T. Also even a strong engine isn't goin to contain the power at every point across ur serviceable rpm Range...IE u got an engine that will contain 1000bhp at peak, that engine will NOT withstand that amount of power production if its made at 2000rpm or so. A good example is the large semi tractor diesel engines, im a former long haul trucker who ended his last 15 years as an owner operator, when u realize how much TQ it takes at what rpm it must to = 500BHP as early as 1800rpm( my last tractor made 415bhp/1,765lbft@1850rpm) u can understand how woefully inadequate the avg gasoline engine is to contain that rate of power production....u have production engines that make as much as 630+ bhp domestically, but they NEVER make anywhere near 1,765lbft and they make even the 415bhp no earlier than near 5k rpm. Which brings to mind another hot rod truism " all BHP is NOT created equally " proof of the pudding is that u can have 2 engines that produce the same amount of bhp at peak, but their bhp peak rpm r not the same, the variable is the amount of tq they make and at what rpm they do so, since the more TQ u make and the fewer RPM at which u make same, the fewer rpm u need turn to create any given amount of BHP= TQ x RPM.
YET ANOTHER MYTH, all bhp n tq curves cross at 5252 rpm, CURVES refers to the plotted lines across a power graph such as from a dyno, u have 1 representing tq and 1 that reps tq, these curves CROSS at that RPM at which the number value of both the indicated tq and the indicated bhp are the same..IE 500bhp/500lbft etc...that is the only place they CAN intersect and its almost NEVER any 5252 rpm, certainly not in an engine that never even reaches that rpm or is ever intended to. What is true is that BHP n TQ curves will cross at some point in the serviceable rpm range either before or after one or the other begins to drop off.... in point of fact, this myth springs from the fact that 5252 is the mathematical constant in the formula to calculate bhp, it is NOT an INDICATION OF RPM, in math, UNLESS a value is indicated to reprent something it is ALWAYS simply a mathematical constant that controls the equation...bhp=2pi/33,000 ft lb /min x T ft lb X rpm= 1/5252 x T x rpm, which simply states that bhp is a function of tq times rpm divided by 5252, NOWHERE does it indicate that either 1 or 5252 is representative of any variable, where as tq, bhp n rpm are the variables...the 2 is 2 times pi, 33,000 is ft lb/min.( an indicated value in an equation may or may not b indicative of a constant, but a value that is not indicated to represent something is ALWAYS simply a constant /control factor.
most spray systems employ a 10lb bottle, at a 200-225bhp setting with a wet plate u get 4-5 full passes but u get a drop off in perf after the 2cnd full pass since the bottle pressure begins to fall, heating the bottle maintains a great degree of consistancy but even still, by the end of the 5th pass ur gonna need a bottle refill.
again, spray can NOT exceed the max TEP the physical size of the engine dictates within the serviceable rpm range, by the same token, superchargers and turbochargers can exceed TEP but they do so by increasing the size of the engine and maximizin vlometric efficiency by way of movein more AIR thus more oxygen in the same space n time, BUT u can increase volumetric efficiency by the introduction of MORE OXYGEN per charge in a Normally aspirated engine, which is what spray does, nitrous oxide by volume and by weight is 2 parts nitrogen 1 part oxygen at its molecular level, or 1/3rd oxygen, where as free air even at sea level under the best atmospheric conditions ur luck if 15 per cent of the air u take in is actually oxygen. what u have to realize is that the fuel u burn is NOT what actually operates the engine, heat applied to the remains of ur mixture as and after the fuel is burned does....by way of expanding the gases that remain, OF these oxygen reacts, or expands most violently with the least amount of heat applied
absolutely correct in every instance Lou..... this is the area where most folk fall short in their build, especially when using a power adder. they build an engine that can contain what power is made if it were normally aspirated but not with the additional power from the power adder. The same way folk will build an engine and trans thats bullet proof for the most part but fail to add the needed periphial equipment to take best advantage of them in use. maybe they may fall short in the area of traction yield, or perhaps they short cut on chasis rigidity( which affects traction yield), maybe their instant center and or pinion angle is slightly off, wwhich not only reduced traction yield but also reduces the effect of weight transfer as well as wastes power, viscous coupleings(u-joints) take much more power to turn when there is misalignment, this is why vehicles drag raced with independent drive wheel suspension system are so prone to breakage. with the number of viscous coupleings in such a system its near impossible to have all of them properly aligned at all times, especially on the launch when u have max lift n weight transfer. Not to say that u can't overcome these shortfalls, just that its quite a bit more expensive to do and still ur left with a system that is less durable than a fixed or hypoid axle system, not to mention one that is more power parasitic.
However ur absolutely correct in ur assesment that whether u plan to produce all ur power normally aspirated or with some sort of power adder the whole vehicle must b designed and executed to handle and make best use of whatever TOTAL amount of power u might achieve, since power u can't put on the ground is essentually counterfeit, in fact ur better off if u have LESS power than ur able to plant than if u have MORE. wheelspin, wheel stands, tire smoke n all that is great for the spectators but not very conducive to winning races. Remember SPOT is a dogs name and ketchup is for hot dogs n french fries, if someone gets out on ya on the lauch u jus spotted that racer and ur playin catch-up. I'll b the 1st to admit that in a race where for whatever reason u end up behind and u over come this to win is a GREAT feeling, but given my druthers, let ME b out there n THEY back there tryin to catch ME. It often said as a truism that the race is won at the start line, this isn't so, its won at the finish line u can jus give urself a better chance to win at the start line, and ur far less likely to make an error if ur in front than if ur behind.
Again do not take my favortism for spray as to mean that i don't reconize its short falls, i do...nor should u expect that i believe that spray is the overall best piower adder, IT ISN'T, Turbo chargeing is. with a turbo u can make MORE POWER and maintain a greater degree of durability than with any other power production method, even normally aspirated with NO power adder, this because the turbo loads BOTH sides of the combustion or power stroke, the restriction caused by drivin the turbo off the exhaust loads that side of the power stroke, while the turbo boost loads the intake side, this has a balanceing effect on the engine and tends to have the engine run more in the center of ur clearances thus relievein a good deal of the stress on bearings and recip assembly parts, includin side loadin of the pistons against ur cylinder wall, which also reduces friction. tho this does not nessecarily MAKE more power, it does leave u more of what ya do make to put to the wheels.
My preference for spray is based on the fact that 1st i feel like a turbo or a supercharger is CHEATING, AND both are much more expensive as well as tech intense to install, and maintain. The end game is no matter what u do, no matter what route ya use, the more power u produce from any given power train the shorter the life of same is goin to b, again the generally accepted breakwater mark is 1bhp per cube, past that engine life goes down expostentially, by the time u have gotten to 1.25bhp per cube ur engine life is about 70 per cent of what it was at 1bhp per cube, by the time u get to 2bhp per cube its less than half what it was at 1bhp per cube, which brings up my last point in my preference for spray, max power is on demand only, the remainder of the time the wear factor is that of what the engine makes on mtr alone. spray is also yet NORMALLY ASPIRATED since it DOES NOT increase inlet pressure, its NOT as brutal on the engine as is a supercharger, but more so than is a turbo charger when in use. In final, everything is NOT for everybody, because spray works best for MY purposes does not mean it will for urs. My aim is mainly STEALTH, walk softly and carry a big stick, b faster and quicker than u look or sound, rather than vice versa, u must admit, its kinda hard to b stealthy with a blower stuck thru ur hood or that tell tale turbo whine as ya pull up. another thing, IF u use spray, treat it the same way as does those folk who use a supercharger or a turbo charger, like AMERICAN EXPRESS, never leave home without it and ALWAYS have a spare full bottle on hand. Remeber most so called racers really don't want to race, they jus wanna win and do so as easily as possible. Drag racin successfully is NOT a show and tell sport, after all, if u accept bthat the other racers are at least as wise as u r, as u must, and u show and tell all u have, those who can't or do not believe they can beat ya aren't gonna mess with ya till they think they can and the ones who can are not gonna give ya any kind of break, best u keep ur hood and ur mouth closed, thats ur best chance of winnin more than ya loose which is the very best u can hope for in any kind of racing, the only folk who never loose r those who do not really race.
im not at all offended Lou. I may have more experience or expertise than u at this but it does not mean i can't learn something from u, nor does it mean that my way is best for u. to b offended because ur opinion differs from mine would b kinda self centered and arrogant n thats not my M O. However, i do all my switch flippin and valve tyurnin long before i ever line up to race, and i build my OWN systems, and despite my vast experience and expertise with spray i build them DUMMY PROOF with the best available parts and ALL the nessecary periphial equipment to take full advantage of the system. as a rule i run a 2 stage system, tho i have had and built for other folk systems with as many as 4 stages. I put my 1st or start stage on a throttle switych and set it to engage at WOT, my 2cnd stage is ALWAYS and ADD on rathert than a flip over and i engage that with a hand held AFTER the launch or when the chasis settles, whichever comes 1st, and thats usually on the 2cnd gear shift or jus before same. My preference for spray again is because 1) its only on demand and i can build a relatively MILD engine that is pmp gas friendly with great drivability n fair MPG( mechanical comp ratio n cyl pressure determine ur octane rating needed,if u have an 87 octane compatible engine u can spray the hell out it to the max n still never need to go more than one grade hgher fuel octane rate, in this case it would b to 89 octane). that in parenthesis brings to mind yert another myth that causes some racers to not gain as much power as they could have....too much octane is JUST AS BAD for performance as is too little its jus that ur more likely to incur damage with too little octane. Here is what u must consider, the hgher the octane of the fuel the slower the burn rate because its a dirtier fuel, don't b mislead by the fact that hgher octanes cost more than lower octanes, this is because hgher octane fuels being dirtier incur a greater tax burden which the supplier then passes on to the consumer resulting in the hgher price even tho the lower octane fuels are more expensive to produce, the lower the octane the cleaner the fuel burns, mainly because it burns faster thus burns more completely in the same amount of space n time. with a low octane fuel u can start the fire of combustion a lot later or closer to the pistons TDC, whereas with a slower burn rate u MUST light it closer to BDC in order to insure that it burns completely by the time the combustion cycle is over. Much of the confusion comes with the terms advance and retard timing, when u ADVANCE ur timin ur actually firin the spark plug sooner in the combustion cycle and later when u retard the timin...IE if ur total timin is say 40* that says ur lightin the plug 40* of crankshaft rotation BTDC, ONLY a grunt or TQ monster with relatively low octane fuel is goin to benifit from a timin set that is near or ATDC
PS, i have as i have said a total of 5 hot rods that i drag race, includin a ZX11D Kawasaki Ninja, they are all what we call BUILT, including the bike, to variing degrees and all r yet PMP gas,
My Lesabre: 403 8-1 SBO, i run 87 octane in colder weather and 89 when the ambient gets above 65* I run a 2 stage system 50bhp 1st stage and an add on 100bhp 2cnd stage
My Silverado: 406 10-1 0 deck( 0 deck means that at TDC the dome of the piston is dead even with the block deck, in my case since my block was decked .005 mine r .005 above the block deck at TDC) this is a very tricky combo to run, especially on pmp gas since static cyl pressure is much hgher than the mechanical compression ratio would imply, so that it is still pmp gas friendly i run a cam with relatively a lot of overlap, especially for something on spray to bleed off some of this cyl pressure and use a single stage system with a 175bhp set that actually yeilds jus a tad over 140bhp due to the bleed off. as with the lesabre, my octane level depends on ambient temps, 93-94 in warm weather and 90-92 in damp and or cooler weather.
My Trans Am: std bore 455 H.O. Pontiac 9-1 also like the lesabre a 2 stage system 100 1st stage w/ an add on 150 2cnd stage for a total of 250 and i use the same octane rates with this as with the Silverado under the same circumstances.
My BMW: .038 over 70 Stage 1 455 Buick( the engine is actually since the build, more stage 2 than stage 1 but it IS based from a Stage 1) 10-1(actually 10.13-1) like the Silverado n Trans Am i use the same fuel octane ratings under the same circumstance tho max timin for the TA is 36*, 34* for the Silverado(Which is on the ragged edge of whats permissable with a capped exhaust with the 0 deck 406 SBC n 6" rods on pmp gas in really hot weather im limited to a total of 32*) while the Bmer i run a Total of as much as 30* in hot weather but no more than 32* in cool and or damp weather.
i run a 125 1st stage with a 175 add on 2cnd stage for a total of 300 in spray.
My Ninja is kitted with a Super Bike Mike 1109 CC Kit but NO SPRAY and i ALWAYS run 93 or 94 in that since its 12-1( i can get away with this since its an all aluminum liquid cooled engine which has a diff heat dissipation rate than any of the other vehicles which are ALL IRON engines.
Both the Ninja and the Bmer are hgh 9 sec rides on a good clean pass, 9.9 for the Ninja, 9.7 for the Bmer. The Silverado and the Lesabre are both mid to low 12 sec rides while the TA has clicked off some mid 10's since the addition of the tremec tko 600 5 spd manual, all times are thru the exhaust, full exhaust including tail pipes, 2.5" on the bike n 3" on all the rest with Flowmaster 40 series 2 chamber muffs.
All, including the bike do and MUST run trouble free at or above the posted speed limit anywhere so long as the fuel lasts without incident of problems as well as operate trouble free overheating free no matter what the traffic situation im in.
Both the lesabre and the Silverado use TH350 Trans, 2600 veter in the Silverado n 3500 in the lesabre, the Bmer also uses a 3500 verter but w/ a Coan TH400 race w/o brake n 2.38 1st gearthe TH350's are yet auto shift while the Bmer is manual reverse pattern. the TA and Lesabre both use a 3.08 gear while the Bmer uses a 3.50 geared Ford 9'' n the Silverado a 3.42.
TA runs 28 x 11.5 x 15 MT ET Streets, Bmer 26 x 10.5 x 15 MT ET Streets, Silverado n Lesabre both use 275 x 60r x 15 BFG TA Radials. The Bike is stock gearing and ride height but uses a 190mm rear tire as opposed to the stock 180mm. BTW the Lesabre is a 78 4dr sedan n SBO stands for Small Block Oldsmobile V8 which is what it came with(403), AND ITS LOADED SAVE FOR REAR DEFROST N POWER WINDOWS.
The Bmer is also loaded, the only deletions in the build were IRS, ABS n EFI, tho i plan next year to delete the power brakes so that i can run a more agressive and solid lifter cam, but for the TA all engines are currently flat tappet hydraulic( roller cams, especially really aggressive roller cams are far too short lived valvetrain systems for the amount of driving i do with my rides) especially since i have a number of them.
None of my rides are world beaters but ALL r quicker and faster than they look or sound and all are TRUE STREET(pmp gas full exhaust including tail pipes)
as opposed to race gas short exhaust REAL STREETERS, they are all also ALL METAL save for the TA's shaker and the the Bmer's 4'' cowl hood scoop, and but for the Bmer all retain stock suspensions w/o any visible traction devices, and the Bmer, but for redrilled hubs n rotors for 5 on 4.5 bolt circle, is ALL STOCK front suspension
BTW Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all and their families in the hope that we all have a great year of car craftin in the coming year, and lets all try to stick together more, it isn't as if car crafters have a whole lot of friends outside the field, thus if WE don't stick with and support each other, who will ? Right.....nobody
O, lou, ur right, someone is gonna wax ya if ya keep racin enuff, actually RACING and it won't matter WHAT u have or what yu do to it, thats jus the nature of the beast of racing....
i don't claim to always win, and anyone who does is a liar, u won't always beat the folks ur supposed to beat let alone all those u think u will and i don't mean to imply that spray can overcome that fact....besides, no matter how much spray ya use, ur only goin to achieve at best the max T E P of whatever size engine u have, someone gets in the next lane with as much or more mtr than u and or a supercharger or turbo charger and ur likely to loose regardless of how much spray ya use, the best workin combo in any race ALWAYS win and that combo's most important ingrediants are the operator and the chief wrench.
Best that ya either stick with what ya know or learn all ya can about what ur gonna use.
as i say, i like spray because i can build an engine which is mild and on mtr alone puts out something less than the max T E P then spray out the rest on demand.
My Bmer for instance, the engine i use has a T E P that CAN make for 12-1400 BHP, however, my engines present state isn't goin to contain more than 930 for more than a short while if i hook it solid, the reason is thatv a 930bhp Big Block Buick is gonna make upwards of 1100 lb/ft TQ n thats the limit of the block n crank no matter what ya do em, i could go a bit more if i were to invest in a aftermarket steel crank and an aftermarket block, but that is more expense than i need to expend to achieve my goal with the car, besides 850bhp from a Big Block Buick is bout the limit of what i can put on the ground in my set up so havin more than that is a waste. My engine makes 554bhp@5760RPM n 568 lb/ft TQ @ 3940 RPM on mtr, i spray a total of 300 in 2 stageswhich puts me right on the ragged edge of what i can put on the ground.
In these days of mega HP engines in excess of 1200bhp folk tend to forget that u can go just as quick with a lot less power if ur application is such that u have a perfect or near perfect workin combination. IE: u can put a 10 sec mtr in a 13 sec car n what ya end up with is a 12 sec car, if ur lucky n good....
Also, in this day and age of new fangled trick of the week parts n technology folk tend to to expect that what used to work doesn't work any more, usually the new fangled things don't work any better than did whatever they replaced, they jus work differently and cost more. Witness the fact that folk were makin 10 sec passes with small blocks in 3500+# rides way back in the 60's with flat tappet cams and less than the best heads or other equipment, as a matter of fact the SS/AA record is currently in the mid 8's and those guys have a whole lot of restrictions and rules that masny folk runnin much slower don't have to adhere to....
FOR INSTANCE, u can't use a roller cam unless the engine was available with one from the factory, u can't b more than .030 over and u can't exceed the factory mechanical compression ratio, u can't use spray, or even a supercharger or turbo unless the ride was factory available with one, u gotta use factory offered heads and factory blocks.
Also, mechanical compression is a sure no brainer way to increase TQ and BHP but it is not the only way and in terms of engine life its not even the best way. hgh compression = short engine life.
All that said, u make valid points about what u percieve is best for ur particular combination n use....
Best way to b a successful racer is to, like YOU, no matter what ya may read or hear tell of, DO NOT STOP THINKING for urself, that way no matter how well something u hear about or read works u have a chance to make it work even better.