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hey just PAT OK ?:3dSMILE: well i am right and not wrong they are my cars :3dSMILE:.i do build and machine engine s every day :yes i do know you can roll out and spray as you go and get off the line with a smaller engine .and get a better times. maybe? but i like building BIG ENGINES,i like to keep my post short and to the point .
This thread is dead, thanks
Dead and buried like the unsolicited Pontiac posts.
Dangerous info too.
yes check it ....put a fork in it ... let me see yep it done...well maybe well done
Pat...my post are long so as to not leave room for misconception or misunderstanding about what i mean n where im coming from.
u seem somewhat offended because i told u that u either have or need spray in this day and age.
Many folk don't like to hear this and jus as many do not believe it, its a fact none the less...Just as i said, u can build what ya want, how ya want, n put it in whatever ya want with whatever periphial equipment that u might consider that u need, may b BAD AZZ too...yet still sooner or later u'll come across someone who HAS LESS than YOU and often in less car than u r, hit ya in ur eyeballs with spray n turn ya out, ...and im not sayin this cause im a spray junkie, as i say, in drag racin its a fact of racin life, I too machine and build, wrench and tune my engines, and i have done all manner of same both for myself as well as others since i started in 1963 with MY 1st, im good at it too, if for no more than a wealth of experience both racin with n racin against all the other brands outside my pref.
1st time i got hit with spray was 74, I had the more car, bigger stronger mtr and in fact the guy was carrying 3 passengers to my solo ridin, blew me in the weeds.
2cnd time was 75, same thing, the last time before i JOINED EM since i couldn't LICK em was 77 and that too was the same situation as was the 1st 2.
I believed at 1st as u do now that i didn't need any spray, in fact didn't even have a clue what was goin on, IF u keep racin the same that happened to me is gonna happen to YOU. as i say, ur gonna run across someone who has less than u in mtr AND overall car and they r jus gonna spray ya and hand u ur doors, as has been the case eventually with everyone including myself who has made the bold statement that they don't need any spray.
Thge simple fact of the matter is that as long as ur normnally aspirated u can never hope to achieve the MAX THERMAL EFFICIENCY potential of ur mtr, no matter what ya do to it, too many uncontrollable variables in actual operation, with spray u can easily achieve it, cheaply too, without buildin so radical an engine, thus, as i say, someone who has as large a mtr as u is gonna hit ya in the shorts with the gas n ur gonna b suckin wind n readin lic plates...as i say...no offense, just fact...
By the By Big Pat, not a few folk run Blowers and or turbos AND spray, reason being....they know the spray is a fact of life and a cheap easy way to maximize the power u produce on the mtr w/o cost to what ya gain with the turbo or the huffers, AND, tho the positive displacement roots type systems actually add MORE cubes to the engines capacity, so do centrifical or non positive displacement blowers and turbos which are ALL none positive displacement, as in they don't displace the total or positive volume of their compressor stage.
Like u say, to each his or her own, and the real truth is that i don't really care for spray or ANY power adder in fact, its just that i do not allow my distaste for them or adversion to em blind me to their potential, any more than i let my avid use of spray blind me to the draw backs of same, the simple reasons that i use spray are 1) it works!!! and there is nothing that can b done to ur ride for the cost of even the most advanced spray system thats gonna make half as much diff in performance, not to mention its goin to b MORE DIFFICULT and tech intense to install and properly operate. 2)I can build an exceedinly MILD engine as far as normally aspirated power production( i usually try to keep my engines tween the 1hp to 1.25hp per cube range since past this drivability, MPG and durability fall drastically if this is power production on mtr alone) tho when in use the drivability, durability and MPG u get with spray is exactly the same as would b with the engine makin that amount of power w/o spray and usually the launch traction is a bit worse if ya try to leave on too much. BUT, this i ONLY ON DEMAND and most even pro race cars are driven relatively little at peak power productions in drag racing.
W/O spray, and or with another power adder, the engine experiences the exact same load at the exact same rpm no matter what u do, not the case with spray...only on demand and spray is not as smooth a power delivery as is a turbo, but its less brutal than is a roots or positive displacement power adder w/o the ability to acheive the power numbers of either one tho, not by itself anyway.... as i say, i see the plus and minus of spray, always have, this is in part why i have been so successful in its use, i never over estimate it, or under estimate what the other guy uses. In drag racin, especially on the street, it is and always has been, run what ya brung n hope ya brought enuff, these days if ya didn't bring any spray,. its jus as likely as not that ya didn't bring enuff, spray is an advantage that must b overcome and its not nearly as easy an advantage to overcome or as cheap to do as some seem to imply.
nope not offended by you . like i said i happy running slow. i see the bad side of Nos when thing go wrong .i do not wast time talking anyone out of Nos .it is just more work for me to fix the bad run . i machine engines .more work for me.hey it just pat ok :D OH thanks for telling me about blower engine s i did not know that ;)
i do not like nitrous,i think its a cheap out and if you know how to build a hi po engine why do you need it. just my opinion.
Nitrous is not a universal cure-all for the slows.... Many classes don't even allow a bottle to be in the car, let alone be used.... As for the street, too easy to overpower the tires without nitrous on most of the lousy streets, unless you're in to big smoky burnouts...
I've ran with it and ran without it.... when set up correctly with a quality system and controllers and used at a moderate level it is safe, but it's certainly not the only way to go fast!!!! To imply that you can't win a race without it is absurd!!! Horsepower to weight, a properly set up chassis along with a driver that can get off the lights and keep the car in the groove is still the closest you'll find to a "guaranteed" winner.... I've trailered more then a few sprayed cars when the tuner's desire to go fast overpowered the available traction, and/or the driver's abilities!!!!!
that s the great thing about a blower or turbo bottle is all ways full .i do not race on the street ;).i had guys try me with smaller engines on the bottle . they just do not get it till they get a ass whipping with a blower beltQuote:
Originally Posted by Louey
Pat, sure u didn't know somethin i said about blowers......NOT!!!
Stude, ur right about spray being a cheap out... as i often say there is absolutely NO SINGLE addition u can make to a motor vehicle that would cost as much as the most hgh tech spray set up(bout 1500 if ya count ignition upgrades) that will make more than a mere fraction of the performance improvement, AND with spray u remain normally aspirated in that u do not increase inlet atmopheric pressure, HOWEVER spray does greatly cool ur inlet charge and as u may well know, cooling the intake charge increases power production and allows u to do so with quite a bit less octane sensitivity.
But a CHEAT, no way. Also I don't care how well u build an engine, especially when using same in operating condition of less than optimu, atmopheric condition and hope to reach the max T E P or thermal efficiency potential of the engine, IE the max amout of power the engine theoretically can make given its size and serviceable rpm range, NOTHING as long as that engine is normally aspirated UNLESS u USE spray.
SPRAY essentually is a T E P maximization addition....in short, u can have an engine size and servicable rpm range that will theoretically support the production of 1200bhp given the durabilityt to contain that amount of power unless u use spray, so long as ur normally aspirated ur never gonna get more than maybe 1000 to 1050bhp out of that engine, minimum of 150 left since othersse u never reach max volumetric efficiency and that being the case u never reach max T E P. However with a turbo or a huffer u can not only maximize but exceed the normally aspirated volumetric efficiency, 2 reasons, 1st u increase the the atmopheric pressure thus u apply more atmopheric pressure within the same time n space, and 2cnd u increase the physical size of the engine at least by the contained/moved volume of ur compressor section( ROOTS type HUFFERS are PD, positive displacement, turbos n centrif blowers r negative displacement, they do not move the total volume of the compressor section).
As of now my max horsepower NA engine===1398 at 10,300 rpm
My best with NOx----they didn't have dynoes that could check it at the time
My best Supercharged engine---they not only didn't have dynoes that could check it but it exceeded all the max theory performance levels thought to be possible at the time
At work I operated vehicles with more than one engine and there levels were known but classified
but if there is going to be a race, I need a little time to put one back together
Just as Pat doesn't try to denegrate spray or discourage anyone from using it became another method works better for him, I don't try to encourage folk to use spray because that works best for me...BUT,as im sure Pat is about his pref, IF i encounter anyone who is using or contemplatin the use of spray, i try to impart to them what i have learned in hopes that they can avoid many if not all the errors that i did, and to dispell the rhetoric and myths about spray resultant of the horror stories that abound about spray use.
The stories are the same as those that used to abound bout huffers and turbos AND for the same reason. Folks employ pray with sub par parts and often MISUSE it to boot. the most prevalent cause of engine failure is to try to apply more boost or spray than the engine is capable of containing safly, besides, if u produce more power than the engine can contain, no matter HOW u produce said power ur gonna lunch the mtr in short order.....IE a 454 cube mtr has a T E P normilly aspirated that will yeild 12-1400bhp depending atmospheric conditions, but if u pull 1200bhp from a factory stock engine it ain't gonna last as long as a snowflake in a blast furnace. If u plan to maximize the TEP of such an engine or even get close to it u need to have an engine that can contain that type of power production and trust me when i say, NO FACTORY HAS EVER made a production engine that will contain the amount of power that the T E P of same indicates it can without extensive modification, especially in the area of strenthening the engine....( super stock class drag racers as a rule get the closet to their engines T E P on gasoline, sometimes into the 80 per centile range, avg is 65-70 per cent tho, check sometime n see how much money they have tied up in that mtr....super stock classes from A-F have engines with a minimum replacement cost of 25k if its a competetive ride in the class, and in the hgher classes, 50-1000k is not as uncommon as u might expect ). The greatest advantages of spray is that it allows u to ON DEMAND max out ur T E P and do so at any point within the servicable RPM band...IE if ur hittin ur mtr with 200bhp of spray, ur gonna get that 200 no mattter if ya hit it at idle or at max rpm if u go W O T. Also even a strong engine isn't goin to contain the power at every point across ur serviceable rpm Range...IE u got an engine that will contain 1000bhp at peak, that engine will NOT withstand that amount of power production if its made at 2000rpm or so. A good example is the large semi tractor diesel engines, im a former long haul trucker who ended his last 15 years as an owner operator, when u realize how much TQ it takes at what rpm it must to = 500BHP as early as 1800rpm( my last tractor made 415bhp/1,765lbft@1850rpm) u can understand how woefully inadequate the avg gasoline engine is to contain that rate of power production....u have production engines that make as much as 630+ bhp domestically, but they NEVER make anywhere near 1,765lbft and they make even the 415bhp no earlier than near 5k rpm. Which brings to mind another hot rod truism " all BHP is NOT created equally " proof of the pudding is that u can have 2 engines that produce the same amount of bhp at peak, but their bhp peak rpm r not the same, the variable is the amount of tq they make and at what rpm they do so, since the more TQ u make and the fewer RPM at which u make same, the fewer rpm u need turn to create any given amount of BHP= TQ x RPM.
YET ANOTHER MYTH, all bhp n tq curves cross at 5252 rpm, CURVES refers to the plotted lines across a power graph such as from a dyno, u have 1 representing tq and 1 that reps tq, these curves CROSS at that RPM at which the number value of both the indicated tq and the indicated bhp are the same..IE 500bhp/500lbft etc...that is the only place they CAN intersect and its almost NEVER any 5252 rpm, certainly not in an engine that never even reaches that rpm or is ever intended to. What is true is that BHP n TQ curves will cross at some point in the serviceable rpm range either before or after one or the other begins to drop off.... in point of fact, this myth springs from the fact that 5252 is the mathematical constant in the formula to calculate bhp, it is NOT an INDICATION OF RPM, in math, UNLESS a value is indicated to reprent something it is ALWAYS simply a mathematical constant that controls the equation...bhp=2pi/33,000 ft lb /min x T ft lb X rpm= 1/5252 x T x rpm, which simply states that bhp is a function of tq times rpm divided by 5252, NOWHERE does it indicate that either 1 or 5252 is representative of any variable, where as tq, bhp n rpm are the variables...the 2 is 2 times pi, 33,000 is ft lb/min.( an indicated value in an equation may or may not b indicative of a constant, but a value that is not indicated to represent something is ALWAYS simply a constant /control factor.
most spray systems employ a 10lb bottle, at a 200-225bhp setting with a wet plate u get 4-5 full passes but u get a drop off in perf after the 2cnd full pass since the bottle pressure begins to fall, heating the bottle maintains a great degree of consistancy but even still, by the end of the 5th pass ur gonna need a bottle refill.
again, spray can NOT exceed the max TEP the physical size of the engine dictates within the serviceable rpm range, by the same token, superchargers and turbochargers can exceed TEP but they do so by increasing the size of the engine and maximizin vlometric efficiency by way of movein more AIR thus more oxygen in the same space n time, BUT u can increase volumetric efficiency by the introduction of MORE OXYGEN per charge in a Normally aspirated engine, which is what spray does, nitrous oxide by volume and by weight is 2 parts nitrogen 1 part oxygen at its molecular level, or 1/3rd oxygen, where as free air even at sea level under the best atmospheric conditions ur luck if 15 per cent of the air u take in is actually oxygen. what u have to realize is that the fuel u burn is NOT what actually operates the engine, heat applied to the remains of ur mixture as and after the fuel is burned does....by way of expanding the gases that remain, OF these oxygen reacts, or expands most violently with the least amount of heat applied