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Does anyone know if there is any difference when considering:
when choosing between different Fuel Injection products?
- Performance
- Fuel Efficiency
- Drivability
I'm looking to replace a B&M (now Holley) 144 blower with fuel injection.
I am considering the Holley 950 Commander vs. the Stealth Ram. I've seen others that look really nice but are very pricey.
Thanks for your thoughts
im looking to replace my 6-71 blower with a EFI unit as well and I cant decide what to go with. all the throttle body units look pretty lame so im curious to see what people will say here =).
Check these cool kits out for Chevy and FordQuote:
Originally Posted by Uptown83
http://www.twminduction.com/v8_kits/chevy.html
They are cool looking.Quote:
Originally Posted by hcar
My main concern will be the items in the bulleted list I started with. In particular driveability: which would include good support and information for setup and tuning, etc. I feel pretty good with support I've gotten from Holley in the past. If I go with someone like TWI...I'll have to become comfortable I'll get teh support I'll need.
Any input on that for this company?
Still awaiting thoughts on the original question.
I'll bet we miss the push back in the seat that the blower delivers:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Uptown83
But we'll probably enjoy the improved driveablity and economy:3dSMILE:
there tech is good and I can tell you Roush Performance buys these kits and puts them on there 402IR motor, this is modern tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewingr
http://www.roushperf.com/pdfs/402IR.pdf
hcar, the stack injection looks really nice but does have some problems with initial setup and holding adjustment for the long term. I have $5200 in ours so far so it isnt a cheap solution.
Throttle body injection (TBI) is a poor man's fuel injection. The GM version runs 14 or so psi and squirts into the throttle body so there arent 8 injectors. The TBI is kinda half way between a carb and fuel injection. Positives: cheap, simple, can cobble one up using stock parts. Cons: not as fuel efficient as real injection, uglier than a pig, not very tuneable
Fuel Injection runs >40 psi and can be either a factory job or an aftermarket unit. The common factory jobs for the SBC are the tuned port and the ramjet. The tuned ports are cheap now, a lot of people hack the code so the controller is easy. Parts (sensors) are at the Chev dealer. The ramjet uses a Mercury Marine controller (MEFI4) and is similar looking to the old Rochester units from the 50's and 60's. Arizona Speed and Marine sells a unit similar to the GM unit. Both work really well at lower revs (5500 and under).
After market units seem to be everywhere now. If you go this route, make sure that the unit has oxygen feedback (O2 sensor). Most of the units that feature "no computer" adjustablility are pretty limited in their abilities and are pretty crude controllers. A good controller vendor will recommend your cam basics, ask a bunch of questions about your motor, and will program the controller for your application.
Expect to spend at least $2K for a respectable setup or up to $6K for something like the Roush stack injection.
Injection is really nice for street vehicles.
mike in tucson
Robot
Do you know of any comparison information on varying systems? I was thinking of the Holley Stealth Ram. I know it does have computer programming (I'm not knowledgeable enough to know much about how goot it is) and has 0xygen support.
If I start getting towrad 6K, I would rather sell my engine with the blower and put in an LS1. It would ultimately cost me more than 6K, BUT 6k would be a good start on it.
I get an error that the PDf is damaged. I'll try again later.Quote:
Originally Posted by hcar
I did a little more browsing, and it looks like they don't sell the computer stuff. That means purchasing from multiple vendors. That scares me more.
And, if I get up to 5K or more, I will probably go with an LS1, as I noted above.
ewingr
Fuel Injection Specialties is in San Antone, their web site gives a good summary of Tuned Port Injection:
http://www.fuelinjection.com/
Arizona Speed and Marine: http://www.azspeed-marine.com/
Street and Performance: http://www.hotrodlane.cc/
I would suggest that you find a source that sells you the entire unit including the controller. Then, you will avoid the finger pointing if something doesnt jive. Next, decide what your intent is going to be, looks, performance, economy, simplicity, whatever. Talk to a couple of vendors and dont buy until you talk to your chosen group.....most will say, "we'll fix you right up" but spend some time and learn the basics. Also, if you can find some local guys who have F.I., you can talk to them....especially about a vendor's tech help after the sale. Also, if you dont speak it yet, get up to speed on the lingo..... CPK, VSS, etc....just like computer nerds, the injection world has acronyms to make them feel special.
Next, when you have knowledge of the systems, assess your engine. Do you already have a crank sensor and a distributor that is setup for your chosen controller? Note that most higher-end controllers tie the ignition to the fuel.
For instance, AZ Speed and Marine builds a MSD air meter on a GMPP manifold with the injector bungs welded in. A MSD distributor is tied to the Mercury Marine controller. They sell the harness and everything. When done, it looks like a carbureted setup except for the fuel rails. We put one together, set the static timing, and it fired first lick. Most of the better sources sell very high quality harnesses with the good wire. Most of the injection systems use factory type sensors.
Once you have done one, you will enjoy the easy starting, smoother performance and other advantages of injection. Unless I was building a drag car, I would never go back to a carburetor.
mike in tucson
Robot Mike
Thanks for you detailed input. I agree with the single source option you suggest.
I am sure I will have to purchase a distributor as well.
I'll do some investigation, and pricing. Then I'll decide between changing out the blower vs. selling the whole engine and getting an LS1. I hear a lot of good things about those engines.
I was wondering the same thing about selling my engine and putting a LS1 in my car, but I have so much money in my engine it would be such a waste. I still havent found any units that really catch my eye. I agree I want to buy a complete setup. I get 3mpg right now and have lost my desire to even drive my car. I thought just leave it all alone any start on the next car =). I got a 32 ford 5window coupe body just sitting out in the yard begging for some attention. I dont know what to do, I havent touch my car in 2months and im very close to finishing it!
I gotta say I find the stacks to be the most appealing of them all
3MPG??? what are you running and what are your HP numbers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Uptown83
Here is a site for Bob Ream's stack injection:
http://www.imagineinjection.com/products.html
I think that he sells the hardware along with an Accel controller.
Bob is a super nice guy.
One complaint about the stack injection is that the four venturis
on each bank have a common shaft and it is sometimes difficult to
get/keep all four throttle blades in sync....due to torsion or what, I
dont know. It does look neat.
We are using stack injection on an LS-6 Corvette motor with the MEFI4 controller.....still in work so we dont have results. You can go to
Scott's web site http://umiracing.com/
He has done wiring harnesses and controllers for Bob's stack injection.
mike in tucson
I found this dealer in Club CobraQuote:
Originally Posted by ewingr
From member thorconstr,
Thor Motorsports
Competition Fuel Injection
Systems and Accessories
41 Titus Coan Road
Killingworth, CT 06419
860-663-0480 cell 860-790-0140
Al Wohlstrom
thorconstr@msn
Pricing for TWM 427 Ford Injection
TWM 427 58mm kit, includes manifold for distributor, 4 two barrel 58mm throttle bodies, fuel rails, manifold mounted linkage, vacuum lines with plenum and air horns. $4,050.00
Bosch 42# or 65# injectors. $510.00
Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, regulator, and filter. $750.00
F.A.S.T. XFI ECU, harness and O2 sensor. $2,250.00
MAP, water, and air sensors. $95.00
Crank trigger. $275.00
Polishing for manifold, throttle bodies, fuel rails, and air horns. $1,500.00
Shipping for the above. $75.00
__________________
Brent Mills
Club Cobra
so, I just need to keep on talking and learning for now.
I agree that Stack Injection looks pretty neat. The Holley Stealth Ram looks pretty good too...but in the end, I don't think as neat as stack.
But, if there are problems with keeping stack in synch (stack in general, as opposed to a specific brand), I don't want to take on any problems.
The pricing listed by HCAR comes close to 10,000. Yikes! For that price, I'll definitely be looking at an LS1 instead.
I think the Holley is close to 3,000. But, I don't see it on any cars. I've been to 4 car shows over the past year with 2000-3000 cars each, and have not seen one. I've been watching in order to talk with someone about it. So, that leaves me curious, if not dubious :whacked: I did see some of teh Imagine stuff at the show, and it looks good.
Hmmm...as I think about this, I'd probably need to change my cam too.
Uptown83...I can relate to loss of desire when gas mileage is so poor. I have experienced it that bad in teh distant past, when I had a 440 and 486gear in a 32 coupe. My 56 is getting 10, and if I take the blower belt off, it gets up to 14, usually in the 12.5-13.5 range on teh road. I'm hoping to improve that if I put injection on...but wonder if I'll be disappointed.
As I look at some of these costs, teh LS1 sounds better and better. Of course, that would be a pretty major retro fit for me.
Thats for a 427 kit the 350 Chevy kits are much cheaperQuote:
Originally Posted by ewingr
i have the hilborn 8stack for the 33 , it was 6k complete . i am not sure on performance or ease of set-up yet because i still dont have it done and running .
I am presuming I do want multipoint system, that does provide O2 sensors, and programmability.
But, does anyone know if there is any difference in performance, fuel efficiency or drivability between the various FI sets?
If not, and it boils down to looks, price and support then I can focus on those topics to find the solution I want to consider. I will say I don't think I want to spend over $4000. Above that, I'll lean toward doing the LS1 conversion.
Yes, there is a difference but it is relatively small. Theoretically, sequentical injection is the most precise. Most injection systems are non-sequential and use a crank trigger and fire the opposing injectors (both cylinders at TDC) at the same time. The sequential guys add a cam sensor and fire only the single injector. When you are trying to siphon the best mileage, lowest emissions, etc, these small things make a difference (also when you have an all-out race engine). For a street car, paying extra for the sequential injection is probably not justified but if it is free, do it. However, the extra sensor may be tough to add. If you do an LSx motor, there is a cam position sensor already there.
The major difference in your mileage will be the typical stuff like the cam, gearing, and the injector size and the controller setup (injector pulse width). If you have an injected race engine, it is still going to have crummy mileage. You might want to investigate this if your justification to switch to injection is based on fuel savings.....it may not pay for itself with just the gas mileage.
Tuned ports are pretty good at driveability but they historically dont run at high rpms since they were developed for street Camaros that relied on the low end to impress. Its not to say that you cant make one run high rpm but there would be aftermarket stuff involved.
Which look suits your car's theme? That may be the biggest influence on your choice. An older look might include either a RamJet (looking like an older Rochester) or a Hilborn stack setup while a high-tech look might include a stack injection or a swoopy tubular intake.
mike in tucson
Hi all,
New to the group. I also have been researching FI systems for a 350 and it seems that the Holly StealthRam gets fairly good ink at a couple of sites.
http://www.stealthram.com/ and also http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/pos.../0/Board/UBB12
Good luck with your hunt. I think the StealthRam will look and fit nicely in my 32 3 window. And just thinking does not cost a dime!!
Jigsaw
in Orange County CA.
Well, as that my cam was the one suggested to use with my Blower, I suspect I will need to change out the cam. I would ask whomever I purchase the FI from to suggest a cam for my interests.Quote:
The major difference in your mileage will be the typical stuff like the cam, gearing, and the injector size and the controller setup (injector pulse width). If you have an injected race engine, it is still going to have crummy mileage. You might want to investigate this if your justification to switch to injection is based on fuel savings.....it may not pay for itself with just the gas mileage.
While I want the engine to perform as good as it can, I'm sure I will be unimpressed compared to the blower. So, my goal is decent performance, but higher priorities will be driveablity (w/o having to tune a bunch of fuel stuff all the time); gas mileage; and looks...probably in that order.
If my gas mileage is not going to improve over my blower...then I'm not sure I want to make the change. I am assuming it well. I find that with my blower belt on, on the road, I get ~ 10mpg; with the belt off I get 12.5-14. I was hoping that the efficiency of the injection over a carb on top of a blower with no belt would offer yet another mile or two per gal, if not at least the same as no blower belt. Is any of that likely in your estimation?
For a free opinion, yes, the injection will improve your mileage as compared to a roots blower/carb/no belt......injection just wont make your car into a Prius (thankfully!). It will make your starting much easier, make most operation smoother, etc. If you change altitudes, the car will run correctly all the time; no more choke hassle at high altitude. Of course, your mileage may vary.......slightly higher in the mountains, etc.
mike in tucson
if you have a 32 Ford with a 350 you need this kitQuote:
Originally Posted by jigsaw
http://www.twminduction.com/v8_kits/chevy.html
hcar,
While it looks great and all. It appears you still need to part shop to get all the stuff. And then you need a bunch of tech support numbers as mentioned above someplace. I guess it never ends with Hot Rods. What fun! And thanks for the info anyway.
jigsaw
[QUOTE=jigsaw]Hi all,
New to the group. I also have been researching FI systems for a 350 and it seems that the Holly StealthRam gets fairly good ink at a couple of sites.
http://www.stealthram.com/ and also http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/pos.../0/Board/UBB12 /QUOTE]
Jigsaw
Somehow I missed your reply. Must have crossed each other posting.
I'll take a look.
Not sure about replacing the blower with FI. I am running the Commander 950 atop a 671 with two TBI units as I wanted to run it wet and I like the old school look with Velocity stacks. These Holly TBI's have 4 injectors each and drivability is very good. All in all I am very pleased with the system for an economical alternative.
Also the WWW.Chevytalk.org FI site is moderated by a Holly tech with all the answers I needed.
Techfan
You have any pics of that?
I had thought about putting a 950 on top of my B&M144. But, at this point, I'm also searching for improved mileage. While my thoughts are that if a person is going to have a car like this, you shouldn't let milage stop you from driving to the events...I get tired of stopping for gas every 120 miles.
Has anyone tried this site? http://www.massfloefi.com
I have no experience with them. I am in the process of researching it now.
Good luck,
Scott