396 Chevy- 390 Ford

On another car website they were talking about this age old dispute.
Let me clear up some points.

1st the 390 is not a truck engine. It was a car engine starting in 1961 and was later used in trucks.

2nd the 390 is a high performance engine making 401hp with 3x2 and 375hp with 4 barrel in 1961-62 -63.

3rd it came with aluminum intake,10:5:1 compression,header style manifolds and solid lifters all the goodies the Chevy guys say about their 375hp 396.

4th it is not a passenger car motor though it was used as such iin Parklane,Montclair,Thunderbird,LTD,Monterey,Meteor and Marquis but remember many of this cars could be had in 2dr coupes with 410,427,428 engines and 4 spds just like Chevys Impala and Biscayne.

But it did come in every hot rod Ford and Mercury ever made. Torino,Ranchero,Mustang,Cougar,Fairlane,Comet,Cyclone,Galaxie,Marauder,Montego.
Does that look like a list of 4 door passenger cars and trucks???
Looking through drag times from 1965-1972 its tit for tat. 1966 Fairlane Gt._ 4spd 14.44 Chevelle 396 4spd 14.66. And Chevy had a 3:73 gear to Fords 3:25.
Sleep on the 390 and you'll stay asleep!!!

Oh I'm not saying there is anything wrong with 396 cuz there's not. My dad was a Chevy man and had two cars with 396 a Camaro and Elcamino. They were both quick but I used to beat both of them in my big block 451ci 1976 Cordoba. Though truth be told they were a lot closer to stock than the Doba was. I didn't have my 69 Ford before he passed away.

You left out the 406-------------

Had a friend with a 1968 Torino GT - 390 automatic with only modification being dual exhaust through free flowing mufflers and a cross over pipe. That thing ran like a scalded rabbit and on a regular basis surprised the unsuspecting SS396.

everyone can recall a car that ran ungodly fast for what it was .. one of the baddest i remember was a hipo 289 65 fairlane .. whipped up on 428 stangs with ease ...

QUOTE=jerry clayton;533030]You left out the 406-------------[/QUOTE]

The 406 while part of the family did not make it into LTD,Marquis,Montclair,Montego,Parklane,Thunderbird ,,,,, I don't know why you almost always see them in Galaxies.

I'm really not talking about any type of car really. I'm talking about the 390 itself and the fact it came in the baddest Fords and Mercurys on the planet is just icing on the cake. :cool:
I was really addressing the fact that Chevy guys say the 396 was a race engine and 390 was a truck and passenger car engine. That is as far from the ttruth as you can get.
The 390 can and does make 600hp look their right on ebay and wind to over 6,000 rpm. Will take your breath and your money. Beware!!!

Well one fact your overlooking (or ignoring) is that the whole FE family was created because cars were getting bigger and heavier. Ford/Mercury needed a larger motor with torque. Pure and simple, it was meant for the big land yachts of the day.

Being a torque motor meant it was good for us hotrodders, torque is what gets us off the line.

The first "series" of 396 (a real 396) was routinely beat up by a 390, the next series of 396 (402) mmmmmm.. not so much...

And my 383 powered 68 Charger could, on most occasions, could thump either one.

True that 32/40 and I'm not overlooking or ignoring the torque needed and provided by 390 and its cousins to move heavy land yachts as you put it. Wustang,Cougar,Torino,Ranchero,Cyclone aren't land yachts but high performance 2dr cars. Those are the cars the 390 came in as well as Marquis,Thunderbird,Montclair and the other so called land yachts lol. But point taken and known. Thanks

Actually there were no 390s in the Thunderbolts. For those cars, Ford used the 427 FEs.

".... I don't know why you almost always see them in Galaxies......"

That's pretty simple......The last year Ford produced the 406 was 1963 and at that time Ford did not produce a body other than the Galaxie that the FEs would physically fit in.

If you do some checking you will find that in the FE world the real heavy lifting for racing was done by the Ford 406s (usually in Tri-Power form) until 1963 and from that point on it was the 427 FEs and later the 428s. Ford actually did very little performance development on the 390s. As an example, far as I know the only “performance” manifold was the 62-63 M code Thunderbird (only) Tri-Power intake and any benefits gained from those was negated by the stock log time exhaust manifolds that those cars came with.

In all reality the 390s were designed to be Fords basic grocery getter FE and entry level performance big block….it was at the same level as the 335HP 383 Mopars and 325HP 396 Chevys. Back in the late 60s when I was first getting into the whole street racing/drag racing thing we only had 2 390 powered cars that would come out and play a Fairlane GTA and a 67 Mustang……neither ever won too many races.

As far as the 396, you had to be careful which flavor was under the hood of that SS Chevelle or Camaro you pulled up next to. Unlike the 383 Mopar Magnum engine or the 390 Ford which which could be had in only 335HP and 320HP respectively (1968) the 396 was available in 325, 350 and 375 HP versions.

When you look at who was winning races back in the day when these cars still covered the earth, you will find the Ford FEs well represented in everything from sports car racing to NASCAR to Drag Racing, but it was not the 390s that were winning it was the 406, 427 and 428s.

Don’t get me wrong I’ve owned a few 390s over the years and worked on a bunch more. They are a good engine and with a few tweaks can be made to run pretty well……but the same can be said comparable engine of the time made by GM and Chrysler.


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There is always one, I mean you and the Thunderbolt. Wikipedia lists 390 as coming in Thunderbolt but of course it does not. But of course the other slew of hot rods I listed do come with 390.

Your statement about 406 is not quite true as Thunderbird could fit 406 and latter fit much larger as did Ranchero and Fairlane but at time they may not have been big enough but T-bird was. Also 406 came in Mercury Monterey S-55 and Mercury Marauder.

Quarter miles times in magazine's of that time do not reflect that I posted 1/4 times for 1966 Chevelle 396/375hp and 1966 Fairlane GT with 390/335hp and the Fairlane was quicker. In 67 and 68 396/375 in Nova and Camaro were quicker but not by much. Earning respect 1/8 at a...TIME!!!!! lol

The best stock parts for a 390 , were the 390 GT heads & cam, add in a 428 CJ crank and get a 410 that flat out honks!

I ran my 68 Charger many Sundays at Lions in 69-70 and I never found a stock 350 horse 396 I couldn't beat. It ran E/PSA in the high 14's, low 15's around 92 mph and it was bone stock on street tires. I had problems with 68 Roadrunners and Super Bees, but the 69's were a different story.

‘…..There is always one, I mean you and the Thunderbolt. Wikipedia lists 390 as coming in Thunderbolt but of course it does not……’

Ain’t that the truth, and god knows if you read it on the internet it must be true :LOL:


You do realize the 100 Thunderbolts were actually put together at Dearborn Steel Tubing, not the regular Ford production line. This was due in large part to the shock tower mods that had to be made in order for the 427 to physically fit into that body. If you’ve never seen a Thunderbolt or clone first hand I can tell you it is 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag.

“….Your statement about 406 is not quite true as Ranchero, Fairlane,
Thunderbird all could fit 406.…..”

1963 was the last year of the 406 (although I have heard rumors of a few early productions 64s with them). The 63 Fairlanes had an engine compartment that was close to the same as the 64s meaning they would require the same shock tower mods to fit an FE in. As far as the Ranchero, these were falcon based in 63 meaning an even tighter engine compartment than the Fairlanes …..there was definitely a reason the FE wasn’t available from the factory in these bodies.

I will give you that Ford could have fit the 406 into a 61-3 Thunderbird, but frankly it would have been a wasted effort. Again even in that body the shock towers were so tight with the FE that only the factory flat log type manifolds fit without modifications. There was a reason that that majority of all the 406s came with factory cast iron headers….they needed them to breathe. Additionally the banana nose birds optimistically weighed about 4200 pounds with no options, check a few boxes for things like AC, power seats etc and they easily were in the 4500+ pound range…….a bit portly to be considered a hotrod.

I’m not trying to rain on your parade…..I actually like the FEs but I’m also realistic about their strong and weak points.


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Originally Posted by 34_40

the best stock parts for a 390 , were the 390 gt heads & cam, add in a 428 cj crank and get a 410 that flat out honks!

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Agreed!!!! That's one route no doubt!!!!

I think that series of T birds had the Lincoln engines

the flat exhaust manifolds were because of the steering box location

I took a liittle different route.. My 390 is really a 445 Stroker using a 4.250" Stroker crankshaft,forged pistons. Has aluminum cylinder heads,aluminum intake,750 cfm carb,custom ground Comp Cams hydraulic roller.
Just went back to long tube headers which drag sometimes but shortys just weren't cutting it. Switched from C-6 with stall to 4spd manual. Somebody's getting a real beating lol....

You are right Mike. I know that Ranchero and Fairlane were to small then. Later had enough room for even larger than 406 engine. I also agree with T-bird being overweight.

My brothers 2008 SRT/8 Charger weighs more than my 1969 Ford fullsize and has 2 more doors. So not all hot rods are losing weight. or getting smaller.....

"....I think that series of T birds had the Lincoln engines......"

".....the flat exhaust manifolds were because of the steering box location...."

Jerry the banana nose birds (61-63) were the first ones with the 390……there was no other engine option. The previous generation (58-60) could be had with either the 352 FE or the 430 Lincoln motor.

The flat manifolds were definitely there because of the shock towers. I happen to know about the clearance issues because I spent a lot of time trying to figure out a better exhaust system for the 61 Bird I used to own after I put the Tri-Power setup on it. Even the factory installed Tri-Power Birds used the same exhaust manifolds as the standard 300 HP 390.

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the 396 is a good engine use to buy the 396 325hp engines for not much in the good old days it did not take much to wake one up headers and cam and like all bbc bottom end could take a hell of a beating . but the 325/350 hp was not the nasty 396 that chevy built the 396 425hp was the nasty one. around town in the late 70s there was mild 396s with headers and intake with a l88 cam that that did the job for the low buck

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

the 396 is a good engine use to buy the 396 325hp engines for not much in the good old days it did not take much to wake one up headers and cam and like all bbc bottom end could take a hell of a beating . but the 325/350 hp was not the nasty 396 that chevy built the 396 425hp was the nasty one. around town in the late 70s there was mild 396s with headers and intake with a l88 cam that that did the job for the low buck

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That's what I ran back in the early seventies. Had a '68 SS396, 325 hp, our first "family" car; got it when our first baby was in the incubating organ, because Mrs. Rr was having trouble getting into the 4 x 4 truck, and the ride was better on her, too. But, I couldn't let it be. Tore it down, put an Isky cam in it, an Offy high rise manifold and a Holley 750, some Hedman Hedders, and went to play on Thursday nights and an occasional Saturday. Running with cars from Ford, 390's and MoPar, 383's, of the same basic sort of build, it was pretty much a toss up most of the time - one time I'd beat them, and next, they'd beat me - we all got to do the strut.

;);):D:D:cool::cool:

I never did get into the "store bought muscle car" thing, other then a Vet I bought when I got our of the Air Force. Always had too much money stuck in race cars (circle burners on Friday and Saturday night, drag racing on Sunday), never enough left to go buy a new one.... Always got a much bigger kick out of putting together my own "street muscle", then go out and kick butt on the rich kids with the "store bought" stuff!!!! Nothing much has changed over the years I guess, still having a blast building my own!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

the 396 is a good engine use to buy the 396 325hp engines for not much in the good old days it did not take much to wake one up headers and cam and like all bbc bottom end could take a hell of a beating . but the 325/350 hp was not the nasty 396 that chevy built the 396 425hp was the nasty one. around town in the late 70s there was mild 396s with headers and intake with a l88 cam that that did the job for the low buck

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That set up while fine in 70's when I was a. newborn . Will not net you same results today. I promise you. Times they are a changing....

apples and oranges. Consider dollars per horsepower. Especially over the last 60 years.

Slincoln---------Altho a dyed in the wool ford guy -I would have to disagree with you on not only your comments, but also your line of thoughts----------the 396 chev block as a piece of cast iron , has most of the attributes on all the late dart and similar aftermarket blocks----it is probably the most copied design out there and for many excellent reasons ( I'm not talking about the segment of 350/350 and/or crate engine folks)---the bore spacing, deck height, pan rail spacing, main bore to cam bore, cylinder wall thickness (will easily take .160 overbore) number and location of main/head bolts, etc-------
This doesn't even start to go near the canted valves, port sizes, port heights, water flow and not even a blink toward the side oil groove( remember all the Ford side oiler talk) feeding upper end oil thru the push rods, lots of drain back , oil pump /dist at rear of cam shaft/block/pan--------

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Originally Posted by desert dog

apples and oranges. Consider dollars per horsepower. Especially over the last 60 years.

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Agreed!!! But apples and oranges are both fruits,both round and both grow on trees. Close enough for me!!!

Oh I know nothing about last 60years. I've only been alive 40,but I'm sure your right....

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Slincoln---------Altho a dyed in the wool ford guy -I would have to disagree with you on not only your comments, but also your line of thoughts----------the 396 chev block as a piece of cast iron , has most of the attributes on all the late dart and similar aftermarket blocks----it is probably the most copied design out there and for many excellent reasons ( I'm not talking about the segment of 350/350 and/or crate engine folks)---the bore spacing, deck height, pan rail spacing, main bore to cam bore, cylinder wall thickness (will easily take .160 overbore) number and location of main/head bolts, etc-------
This doesn't even start to go near the canted valves, port sizes, port heights, water flow and not even a blink toward the side oil groove( remember all the Ford side oiler talk) feeding upper end oil thru the push rods, lots of drain back , oil pump /dist at rear of cam shaft/block/pan--------

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I agree what an awesome piece of mechanical wizardry.. I guess I've just. been lucky. Thanks

I think that if Ford had continued down a high performance road with the 429/460--instead of rolling over and playing dead in the mid 70s---we would of seen many, many improvements -------altho the boss 9er was neat, both it and the 427 cammer were basicly just coffee table foundations at that point in time-------

[QUOTE=jerry clayton;533246]I think that if Ford had continued down a high performance road with the 429/460--instead of rolling over and playing dead in the mid 70s---we would of seen many, many improvements -------altho the boss 9er was neat, both it and the 427 cammer were basicly just coffee table foundations at that point in time-------[/QUOTE

I agree 100% but they had other interests.

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

I think that if Ford had continued down a high performance road with the 429/460--instead of rolling over and playing dead in the mid 70s---we would of seen many, many improvements -------altho the boss 9er was neat, both it and the 427 cammer were basicly just coffee table foundations at that point in time-------

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Seriously? So 1st, 2nd & 3rd at LeMans sending Enzo crying back to Italy was just a fluke? Hardly a coffee table foundation in my book, but we all have our opinions.....

Good point I had forgotten about their racing team. I retract my earlier agree and stand firm with the mighty 390 and its brothers 352,406,410,427,428 and iits cousins 429/460.
Bottom line is this no 396 ever beat me and they won't. Don't worry Ford guys I got your back...

Bob Tasca got so angry that the Ford brass couldn't ( & wouldn't) come up with anything better than the lowly 390, and his race team was getting spanked week after week, they raided a car in the lot (reportedly a T-Bird) for the short block, a 428, they kept the 390 gt heads and cam, and the next weekend at Epping New Hampshire, they walked over all comers!

Shortly thereafter, Ford rolled out the 68 1/2 Cobra Jets.....

I grew up 30 minutes from Tasca Ford, it was THE place to be if you were a Ford guy in the late 60's.. everyone was welcome to drop in and talk with the crews... The Cobra Jet teams all gathered there during the eastern swing.. it was Nirvana for a car crazy teenager!

For the Ford folks-Phil Bonner just passed away---IIRC he had one of the 68 cj at winternationals that was painted one color on one side and another color on the other side-------pit people and spectators only saw 2 different colors.
There was a hydraulic lifter 427 fe that ford was bring out in 68 but had problems meeting emissions so they moved the heads to the 428 and called it Cobra Jet----
Still have my original invoice around here somewhere and it was less than $4000 with all the registration and licensing think 34 0r 35 hun! Dark green with gold stripes Torino---it ran so good that I didn't even change the engine out to the Holman Moody 427----------

I got to meet Phil Bonner some years back at the first All Ford Carlisle National meet in Carlisle PA. We chatted for a few minutes during a rain storm and he sighed a shirt for me!

I've never worn it! Maybe now???? RIP Phil..

I saw him about a year ago at show in Muscle Car Show here in November--this year its nov 22-23 in Rosemont,Il---got to go to all shows nearby to visit with all the old guys as they are leaving this planet at an alarming rate-RIP Phil and others


IIRC, my cj had a camshaft #c8az 6250 d plus a timing gizmo that had about 10degrees variable timing---------

34/40 Watch it with the lowly 390 comments lol. The 69 might catch wind of it and you don't want that....lol...

Ford v Chevy was the battle for 2nd place about this time in Super Stock..... The Hemi began it's dominance in A/S, A/SS and the wedges took over everything in B/SS. Had the distinct privilege of being the "hired gun" in a Div 5 B/SS for 3 seasons, we could run on or below index most anytime out (except Denver). Ford was factored so badly they didn't even have a fair chance to be competitive in the SS classes but did hold their own in Stock classes. The 427 Chevelles and Camaros did ok, but none of them could run with the Hemi Mopar's.....Though some will argue that NHRA factored and rated all of the top 3 or 4 SS classes in favor of Mopar's, the Hemi cars owned Super Stock, Stock Eliminator through the 70's.....

Yep--those late 60 into 70s era of factoring, weight breaks, indexing ruined organized on track racing and drove the real racers back to the roads------
Remember the 4 door falcon??? wasn't it Gapp & Rosch that did it??
small block vegas? Pintos? and then Gliden went to Mopar and won most all the races that year? pretty much proved the favorism shown to Chrysler-----