Can you remove and replace a piston from a 350 from the bottom

I'm in a dispute with a local machine shop owner that rebuilt a short block for me from a 89 K1500 4wd truck. I finished the engine out and installed it. When I fired it up after priming everything of course I discovered it had a knock and the oil pressure dropped off to nothing when stopped at a light after warming up. I took it back to him and he checked it over after many go rounds I took him to court. He showed up with a piston with a screw mark in the top of it saying a screw worked it's way out of the throttle body butterfly and into the engine. Now this might explain the knock but not the loss of oil pressure. I asked if there was any head damage. He said he couldn't tell since he didn't remove the head he took the piston and rod out from underneath without pulling the engine. Is this possible? I don't see how he could have gotten it past the crank. If he removed the crank from underneath is there enough room to get the flywheel clear of the torque converter? Assuming he did get it out would he be able to get a new piston back in without cracking a ring? Is this really the best way for a professional shop to do this?
Needless to say after court I went to pick the truck up and it still had the knock and loss of oil pressure. He claimed he forgot to tighten the torque converter bolts, another time it was bolts on the 4wd were missing and it was banging. Now we're going back to court and I'd like to dispute what he said originally as I don't think what he described was possible. I should also mention when I took the throttle body off there weren't any screws missing nor could I tell where one had been replaced.
Thanks for your time and advice.

Mcgyver

You know, I've never tried to pull a piston and rod out the bottom of a SBC motor, but I would not think it's possible. Why do you keep doing business with Houdini Motors anyway? Not sure where you are, as there are many Georgetowns, but if you're in the Washington, DC area, there must be scores of shops in the area who would be more trustworthy.

.

It is not possible (at least not in one piece), as it hits the block webbing, a buddy and I just went over this on a sbc. Not only is it impossible to get out the bottom, the bottom of the cylnder is not square so there is no way to use a ring compressor to install a new piston. I agree with Tech, you can't win arguing with a idiot who lies. I am not sure about Georgetown either but where I live something like this usually comes down to a whippin' of some kind (if you know what I mean) and never gets to court. Sorry about your problems

If you go back to court take a clean salvage block on an engine stand, with a piston & rod installed and the head bolted on as Exhibit A, and ask him to demonstrate how he pulled the piston without removing the head.

Welcome to the forum, BTW, and sorry that you're having difficulties with the Ohio shop.

Take a look at these pictures and see if you think you can. In my experience, no - and believe me, I have tried it in the car without removing the heads or the crank; it don't work even with the crank out.

http://home.koping.net/u3243a/images...s/DSC01323.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/110890...-1/s-l1000.jpg

.

Wowzer - the only way I know of to take a piston out of the bottom of a SBC is in pieces - lots and lots of little ones....

Intact - can't be done. Like others have already said, this clown is pulling your chain and needs to be called out and then legally disciplined.

Good luck with this,
Glenn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rrumbler

Take a look at these pictures and see if you think you can. In my experience, no - and believe me, I have tried it in the car without removing the heads or the crank; it don't work even with the crank out.

---

I've seen some reference to being able to get #7 piston out from the bottom, but none of the others. Not sure if that's right or not, but there are several places on different forums that say it's possible.

X2 on the short block demonstration in the courtroom. You could have it clean, all bolts finger tight, have a rubber mallet and ring compressor on hand. Be sure to point out that it would be easier on the engine stand than in the car. Thus, if he can't do it in court, then he certainly can't do it in vehicle.

Tom,

Plenty of quality shops in North Carolina, I'm betting you have at least two or three that would testify in court as to the validity or lack thereof in regards to the statements of the other shop owners claims.

Bill S.

PS: No reason to not use your proper location when posting on this site, as we are here to help, not hurt you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcgyver01

I'm in a dispute with a local machine shop owner that rebuilt a short block for me from a 89 K1500 4wd truck. I finished the engine out and installed it. When I fired it up after priming everything of course I discovered it had a knock and the oil pressure dropped off to nothing when stopped at a light after warming up. I took it back to him and he checked it over after many go rounds I took him to court. He showed up with a piston with a screw mark in the top of it saying a screw worked it's way out of the throttle body butterfly and into the engine. Now this might explain the knock but not the loss of oil pressure. I asked if there was any head damage. He said he couldn't tell since he didn't remove the head he took the piston and rod out from underneath without pulling the engine. Is this possible? I don't see how he could have gotten it past the crank. If he removed the crank from underneath is there enough room to get the flywheel clear of the torque converter? Assuming he did get it out would he be able to get a new piston back in without cracking a ring? Is this really the best way for a professional shop to do this?
Needless to say after court I went to pick the truck up and it still had the knock and loss of oil pressure. He claimed he forgot to tighten the torque converter bolts, another time it was bolts on the 4wd were missing and it was banging. Now we're going back to court and I'd like to dispute what he said originally as I don't think what he described was possible. I should also mention when I took the throttle body off there weren't any screws missing nor could I tell where one had been replaced.
Thanks for your time and advice.

Mcgyver

---

First, it is kind of an aggravation to remove the pan in a 4wd with the engine in the truck (especially if it is the newer body IFS truck) let alone to remove the piston from the bottom. It sure sounds like he is making stories up on you. X3 on the court room demo. Good luck with it.

Not hiding I have homes in both... although you are correct the shop I'm having problems with is in Wilmington, NC. However, I spend most of my time and most of my vehicles are in Ohio.

Any thoughts on the screw falling out of the throttle body butterfly? I was looking at them today and they look very small and almost hammered on the back side. Kind of like an style rivet hammered on the thru side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcgyver01

Any thoughts on the screw falling out of the throttle body butterfly? I was looking at them today and they look very small and almost hammered on the back side. Kind of like an style rivet hammered on the thru side.

---

IMO a screw that small might bounce around a bit, but it doesn't have enough mass to cause any impact damage, and it very likely would get blown through the open exhaust valve and get trapped in the Catalytic converter.

And yes, that screw is "staked", like a rivet, it is almost impossible to get them out without breaking... I can't say I've ever seen one come loose on it's own.

You can get a piston out the bottom of #8
You can get it out of number 1 if bore is oversized and/or front main boss is trimmed a bit----

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

You can get a piston out the bottom of #8
You can get it out of number 1 if bore is oversized and/or front main boss is trimmed a bit----

---

I'm thinking maybe you could get the eight out with the motor still in the truck but you would need to remove the crank as well, correct? The number one would be directly over the front differential on the shallow end of the pan. Could you conceivable get either piston back in without cracking a ring? I know this is more a question of feasibility but this absolutely wouldn't be the way you would want to work on a customers engine, right?

I still say this is crazy, it would be pretty near impossible on a engine stand much less in a vehicle, I mean pulling the crank, oil pump, the pan, the timing cover, the timing chain, water pump, the fan, drain the block, the oil, the cam gear then to try and somehow fish a piston out the bottom of the motor and somehow compress the rings with the block webbing and get it back in (cylinder bottom isn't square like the top)? I realize you need this info for court maybe but I really can't see this ever happening, you would have to reinstall all the above too (can't happen), hypothetically it may be possible maybe but we are car guys on here and I bet nobody here has ever seen this done nor would they ever try on a customers car. Don't let this fool try to convince you or anyone else this ever happened, it simply didn't.
Forgot the starter too, hey just for giggles if he didn't pull the heads how did he know which piston was marked, I hope he has a bore scope or he is a really good guesser, and getting a crank back in with 8 rods dangling without caps having to be pulled down and shoved up...this is just insane, the odds of winning the lottery are bettter than this ever happening. Take him to court with a piston installed and watch him look like a fool, then tell the neighbor kids to roundupp his yard one night (I didn't really type that did I?) Best of luck Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matthyj

I still say this is crazy, it would be pretty near impossible on a engine stand much less in a vehicle, I mean pulling the crank, oil pump, the pan, the timing cover, the timing chain, water pump, the fan, drain the block, the oil, the cam gear then to try and somehow fish a piston out the bottom of the motor and somehow compress the rings with the block webbing and get it back in (cylinder bottom isn't square like the top)? I realize you need this info for court maybe but I really can't see this ever happening, you would have to reinstall all the above too (can't happen), hypothetically it may be possible maybe but we are car guys on here and I bet nobody here has ever seen this done nor would they ever try on a customers car. Don't let this fool try to convince you or anyone else this ever happened, it simply didn't.
Forgot the starter too, hey just for giggles if he didn't pull the heads how did he know which piston was marked, I hope he has a bore scope or he is a really good guesser, and getting a crank back in with 8 rods dangling without caps having to be pulled down and shoved up...this is just insane, the odds of winning the lottery are bettter than this ever happening. Take him to court with a piston installed and watch him look like a fool, then tell the neighbor kids to roundupp his yard one night (I didn't really type that did I?) Best of luck Matt

---

He said he located the damaged cylinder by disconnecting the spark plug wires one at a time. When the knock stopped he found the cylinder. Which kinda sorta makes sense. It would no longer have any pressure on it. I never bought the screw story. I felt he messed up the short block rebuild and I had a rod knock. The same rod knock I brought the short block in for. He showed up in court saying it was fixed and this was his story, removing the piston from the bottom. At the time I didn't care I just wanted it fixed. When I drove it though I got the same results. 60 PSI on start up (using an mechanical gauge), warms up and PSI drops to 40 drive it for a little bit and stop at a stop sign or light and the oil pressure drops off to 0 and it starts knocking. Start moving again and it runs about 30 to 40 PSI. He supplied all the parts and a high volume point was included. Now it's many years later the truck is a mess someone has been using it as a parts truck and it still has the knock and we go back to court on Monday.

I agree with matthyj, it simply makes no sense. It makes a good story, but would require more effort and cost than pulling the head. It would have been easier to use a bore scope and to take a picture. Which is what I would do if I were you, he told you which cylinder he pulled the piston from (court record), use it against him, take a picture using a bore scope (use a reputable shop for this). If the piston isn't damaged, he's blowing smoke....

His explanation doesn't even hold water.

He claims it was knocking because of a tiny screw which was dancing on top of the piston, and this screw decides to sit still because the plug stops sparking- That guy writes better fiction than Asimov.

Even if that piston was chewing on a 1/4-20x1/2" fender bolt, that still wouldn't affect the oil pressure.

I think this guy needs all of us to show up at his court trial/hearing and testify as "experts"...

I'm a bit troubled by your last statement,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcgyver01

Now it's many years later the truck is a mess someone has been using it as a parts truck.....

---

It would be one thing to take the guy to court for a fresh build, but it's been years and "someone" has been using it as a parts truck? A basic long block from one of he big box auto parts stores like O'Reilly's, Pep Boys, etc, etc is less than $2000. You've got to be spending more than that on attorney's fees, I would think? On the other hand, the mechanic must also be paying an attorney, so both of you are spending more than it takes to put a new engine in the truck? Something doesn't make sense in this sad tale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 36 sedan

I agree with matthyj, it simply makes no sense. It makes a good story, but would require more effort and cost than pulling the head. It would have been easier to use a bore scope and to take a picture. Which is what I would do if I were you, he told you which cylinder he pulled the piston from (court record), use it against him, take a picture using a bore scope (use a reputable shop for this). If the piston isn't damaged, he's blowing smoke....

---

He swapped the piston out.... I'm hoping he'll bring it into court again tomorrow.

Small claims courts goes up to 10k here. No attorneys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mcgyver01

Small claims courts goes up to 10k here. No attorneys.

---

Even so, to me your story is becoming more questionable with your statement, "Now it's many years later the truck is a mess someone has been using it as a parts truck....." It's your truck, but "...someone's been using it as a parts truck"? Maybe I'm simply not understanding the situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rspears

Even so, to me your story is becoming more questionable with your statement, "Now it's many years later the truck is a mess someone has been using it as a parts truck....." It's your truck, but "...someone's been using it as a parts truck"? Maybe I'm simply not understanding the situation.

---

I'll fill more in tomorrow after the hearing. It's a long drawn out story and I doubt he's watching this board but someone he may know maybe. I don't want to put to much out there. I'll just say that what he did as a shop owner is despicable. Unfortunately at the time he was the only shop in town doing block work.

Having had some experience with small claims courts, and a specific example remotely similar to this, I feel comfortable telling you your chances of getting satisfaction are close to zero given what you've described. It's worth a shot, but don't be surprised when you end up with nothing but spun wheels.
While it's nice to think that justice and "truth" will prevail here's what you're up against. It's very likely the judge, justice, magistrate, whatever, that presides doesn't have an intimate understanding of the engine at hand. Given the realities of court scheduling and the relative insignificance of your claim (I know, not insignificant to you, but in a world sense), he/she isn't going to spend any time doing research on your or the defendants behalf. It will all come down to the "facts" (if it sounds like opinion you lose) in testimony, which will need to be overwhelming or irrefutable. Unless either you or he are complete dolts you will likely both come across as credible, each expressing opinions/beliefs/facts that sound equally reasonable to the "judge". Unless one of you can demonstrate irrefutable data (unlikely from your description), the best you could hope for as a judgement would be a 50/50 split of the costs which would mean the other party would have to refund you a portion of the actual bill (assuming you've paid and likely nothing for your subsequent time). IF it even gets to that, you'll still only have a judgement against the other party and an empty hand. You'll still have to collect. If he stiffs you there, and you have no garnishment recourse, you'll have to open a case in superior court............and bring out the wallet.

Believe it or not that's the condensed version, but you should get the point. I wish you well..........

My slanted view--------on here you have totally proved beyond any doubt-----that you are questionable on your ability to even understand what, why, how come, where to look, for what, why not, what if-lots of W words------

The shop owner will come across as the expert, professional, know it all, fully capable, wanted to make it right--------

Get it??????

Mcgyver01,
Unfortunately, I believe Roger, Bob and Jerry have summed this up for you. You may be in for disappointment unless you have professional witnesses and proof.
And, for your own good stop talking about it until after court, I quarantine he knows.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 36 sedan

.... I quarantine he knows.

---

Dad-gummed Auto Correct!! ;):LOL::LOL::LOL:

He should be quarantined!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rspears

Dad-gummed Auto Correct!! ;):LOL::LOL::LOL:

---

I HATE AUTO SPELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

or maybe it knows how I really feel! LOL!

It is impossible to remove it out the bottom. X3 on the short block demo in court. I would love to be in the court room when he tries to explain that!

Tony