Printable View
Hey guys, I just got my heads rebuilt and put new studs, guide plates, and will be using Comps Rollers. Plan on puttting back together this weekend and I'm in the process of ordering gaskets etc. Would like to know, should I use new head bolts or is it ok to use the original? Ford 429
Get new head bolts, your old ones have been stretched a little and won't torque the same as new ones. New bolts are cheap enough not to take a chance on.
Thanks, I thought I heard that somewhere before. At $170 for a set of ARP just wanted to make sure. I am going to need a radiator for long too and $$$$$$ is tight down south.
429s and 460s use a massive and strong 9/16-diameter head bolt that handles a torque/clamping force of a whopping 135 lbs-ft. (Compare to chebby's 7/16 bolt which is torques to 65/75 foot pounds.) The original 429/460 head bolts are very strong and of high quality, and if well preserved can be reused over and over again in most applications, certainly most naturally aspirated applications.
Many moons ago (before there were 460 parts everywhere), the car pictured below ran 7.20's in the quarter using an unmodified oem useed 2-bolt block (4.44" bore), oem used 460 cast crankshaft, oem used iron passenger car heads, oem used main bolts and oem used head bolts. The Moroso calculator put HP at over 1800HP.
(Kids, don't try this at home; your results may vary ;) )
Paul
What Paul is not telling you is that the Big block Chevy uses more head bolts spread more evenly across the surface of the deck which will seal your head gasket better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Kane
Used head bolts in a "blown application"?
Even ARP wants you to check for bolt stretch.
Why take a chance on used fastners that may be 30 years old and have 5+ torque cycles on them.
Yes, kids don't re-use head bolts or any other bolts in any blown application.:LOL:
Replacement bolts = cheap engine insurance.
I would go for studs for better clamping rather then bolts - and they are cheaper.
P/N ARP-155-4003 with hex head nuts, @$153 from Summit(the 12 point nut versions are out of sight pricewise)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC2
If you go for head studs, be sure you can slide the head off without doing a lot of extra work.
I assembled the 462" Buick engine in my roadster on an engine stand.
Not too far down the road I pulled the heads to machine for Teflon guides and different springs.
I found the right side head would not come off due to a conflict with the 32's sticks-out-a-touch front body mount.
Had to pull the ARP studs which isn't too bad, but the two end ones are down in a well.:CRY:
Last time I had the head off, I stuck ARP head bolts in it.
Kinda funny looking, but no one has ever commented about the right side bolts and left side studs.
Sorta like my pal from back in the day, he showed up with his flathead powered 49 Ford coupe with an aluminum head on one side and a factory head on the other.
Ran ok, kinda made folks wonder though....:D
I guess my next motor is going to "have" to be a stock parted 460 stroker,max effort design.Utilizing almost all factory parts,pistons and rods have to go,....but the rest will make smiles!!!!!
Heres a pic,just for Erik....:LOL:
Mempho,
Tell us more specifics about your build, such as compression ratio, intended rpm range, hp target, engine application, fuel usage (alcohol, race gas, pump gas, etc.), iron or aluminum heads, etc. That will help determine the use of the proper head bolts.
Most people I know use the oem 429/460 head bolts to over 13:1 compression ratio without incident.
Paul
shawlnee,Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnlee28
That pic looks like a factory iron head that was modifed a la early-style Blue Thunder's iron head exhaust ports. (BT's iron head is not in production.) The Mustang flopper car in my post above had similar portwork, although technically different...and was excecuted long before BT released their heads.
In the correct application they can make some good power.
Paul
Very nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnlee28
What are your final port dimensions??
What are your flow numbers??
What is your intake to exhaust flow ratio??
Talk about a can of worms. This one is full of information and all appreciated. Seems there some Big Chevy worms in there too. Paul, what I've gotten myself into is that I had a set of those notoriously bad 72 heads, D2VE. Man talk about ping! I weighed my options and while I would have liked a set of aluminum heads I tried going the conservative route. I got what I thought was a good deal on a set of c9ve heads for 250.00 but then had to spend another 500.00 getting them rebuilt. Then the new studs and guideplates. Not really shooting for anything but a smoother running valvetrain. Paul, if I'm not mistaken want these heads increase the compression somewhat? When I put this 72 429 in my 56 Ford truck I had never heard about the bad heads, shoulda done my homework. By the way, I should have my new 12 point ARPS delivered tommorrow. Thanks again guys for all the info, the Hot Rod Brotherhood is Alive!
And what Erik is not telling you is that the Ford has the true symmetrical bolt spacing, the thicker cylinder head deck on the block, the blind head bolt holes, the stronger head bolts and the better block material...to name a few of the features that enable the better head gasket sealing than the chebby.Quote:
Originally Posted by erik erikson
But I digress, I can understand a chebby enthusiast's disbelief at what the stock Ford parts can support...afterall, had the race car in my post above been built with passenger car chebby parts it most certainly would have grenaded to smithereens. ;)
Paul
Your compression ratio will increase approximately 1.4 points, give or take. Did you have a very slight oblong dish or a flat top piston? Start with pump gas premium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mempho
OEM 429/460 head bolts are more than adequate in your application. The upgraded ARP bolts will be nothing more than "show" and are better held for a performance build...even though you likely won't need them for most any street driven 460. But they won't hurt anything either. BTW, I know of a single carb rear engine dragster currently running a 533 cubic inch engine (4.44 bore x 4.300 stroke) that dyno'd at 882 hp, and it's using stock head bolts. :)
Paul
An 882hp engine that has stock head bolts??Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Kane
Why take a chance??
When you can buy after-market head bolts/studs from ARP.
The last set of ARP head bolts I bought for a BBF was around $100.
$100 seems like very cheap insurance on a 882 hp engine.
Do you by chance re-use rings and bearings??
It has become rather apparent that you don't take engine building as serious as I do.
Ford has been known to use some pretty exotic metals in their factory stuff,such as forged pistons in the 5.0 motors and nodular steel ,forged cranks,just look at what a 9 inch will withstand from the factory.
I also know some of the linkage was extremely hard steel, I tried to cut some:LOL:
3,000 dollar heads...new bolts,300 dollar heads ,old bolts.....
David Vizzard claims he did over 1000 hp on stock chevy smallblock parts.:HMMM:
Erick,Quote:
Originally Posted by erik erikson
1) We're not talking rings and bearings, we're talking head bolts. And I stand by my claims about the 429 460 factory head bolt capabilities.
2) As a mattrer of fact, no, those who built that particular 882 hp 533 Ford don't believe that they are taking a chance by using the oem head bolts they used, nor do I believe that they are.
3) Piston rings and crank/rod bearings can indeed be re-used if inspected and deemed re-usable, although personally I wouldn't likely do so in an engine such as the one currently being discussed here. By the way, do you know how to tell whether or not a piston ring is reusable for continued service in an engine?
4) Those that know me, work with me, and/or have had us build them engines, have a very clear idea about how serious I am when it comes to engine building. And I don't know how serious you are and therefore I cannot draw a conclusion who may be the more serious engine builder...nor do I give a rat's ass or believe that it matters. But one thing I know for sure: If you have already drawn the conclusion that it is "rather apparent" that I don't take engine building seriously, then I already know that you will never build an engine for me, as I will not allow the hands of such a quick and hasteful judgement maker touch any engine of mine.
It's late and I gotta hit it... ;)
Paul
Yeah, they were very slight oblong dishes. When my Dad first looked at them he thought there had been valve contact :whacked: Anyways, yeah I will use premo gas for sure. I am sure looking forward to hitting the road, lost a lot of the summer but plan on making up for the down time. We are kind slow down here.
i do not know who is right here, but this is a question i was going to ask in a few months anyway about my 429, i know the 429 460 bolts are a larger diameter and ford does use better metals in alot of stuff they build, like the CJ and SCJ 429 high nickel rated blocks, forged pistons, 9" rears that are now used in any make and model car on the planet, because it is a great design and can take a serious beating. i am sure new is good insurance, but after i swing for the new roller cam and lifters, and gasket set after entire inspection. i will be in for about 600.00 if all goes well. its a money issue for me to probably roll the dice and reuse the bolts ive got, not by choice but by force.
Exotic metals in their factoty stuff??Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnlee28
You might want ask Paul how many 460 engines cam with forged cranks or for that matter a 4- bolt main.
Yes,it is true that a lot of the 5.0 engines came with forged pistons but the blocks are crap.
Try to build a 347 stroker that makes 450 hp and then try to shove a 200 shot of n20 at it.
You ask how do I know? well the answer is I build about 6 of the 347's every month or I do a "freshen up".
At 525 -550 hp I am looking for an after-market block for the 302 stuff.
Guess what you will either crack the block right down the lifter galley or you will make "rod windows".
The SBC will take 525-550 all for that matter 600 all day long except the 400.
You are 100% correct about the Ford 9 inch.
They have one more races than all other rear ends.
I have read some of the David Vizzard books.
He is a very good author.;)
Paul,I am sorry you feel that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Kane
I am sorry that I was a smart a$$ in the other post.
"Quick and hasteful judgement"?
In the past twenty plus years I have seen a lot of fasteners fail and this is why every engine I build has grade eight hardware in every location or better including the oil pan and timing chain cover.
The only time I don't use grade hardware is for the blower studs if a blower lifts off.
I am 100% serious when I ask this question.
Do you magnaflux every head bolt?
Do you check for bolt stretch?
Paul,I would like you to read what ARP says about common bolt failures.
www.arp-bolts.com
then "click" under Commmon Failures.
Again I am not trying to be a smart a$$ I am having a problem believing that you are re-using these head bolts in all these applications.
I like new hardware on everything in the engine. Another couple hundred bucks invested in a new or freshened engine is cheap.. On the big Fords that I already have ARP studs in, I reuse the studs for 2 freshens, then go to new ones... Too many other places to save money, no reason to cut back on the hardware that holds everything together.... Maybe it's not essential for a build, but then health insurance isn't essential either...........
Erik,Quote:
Originally Posted by erik erikson
Thank you for the apology. I take back the remark towards you that I said (in regards to engine building). At the time that I posted it, I considered that I do not go to the GM section of this forum and throw rocks. I don't even consider myself a Ford guy; in fact when others refer to me as a "Ford Guru," :rolleyes: I am quick to correct them and state that I am not even a Ford guy...I'm a purely and simply a hardcore 429/460 enthusiast.
I read the ARP page. ARP's contracted certification facility is just a block from our shop, and their trucks pass by our door all the time. My business partner is friends with the certification shop owner. By suggesting the use of the oem head bolts, I don't dismiss ARP or the headbolt hardware that they offer. And while I do have a lot of faith in the stock componentry of these engines, it comes from our pushing the limits of said parts in hard-core racing applicatons measured in conjunction with the engine design and how it all has proven to work together.
By way of comparison, more often than not when a chebby is run though the shop the block needs to be helicoiled and/or a head bolt needs to be replaced...because as the engine is being assembled/head bolts torqued, a bolt strips due to the corrosion from the water jackets. So now we have to disassmeble down to a shortblock again, helicoil a head bolt thread, then reassemble...only to get 6 bolts torqued instead of the first 3 and now headbolt number 6 strips. Off comes the cylinder head again. Not talking sh*t here, it happens on the chebbys and not on all t he other engines that are getting rebuilt.
Incidentally and while we're on the subject of ARP and their hardware, I know a LOT of 429/460 guys that have stepped up to ARP mains studs in their 460 blocks so as to circumvent anticipated cap walk, and guess what? With the ARP main studs, they get cap walk. Remove those studs from the block and re-install the oem main bolts...and the cap walk is once again non-existent. This has been shown on numerous (and I mean numerous) 385 Series builds. (I suspect that if ARP's 429/460 main stud were re-designed to be necked down like the oem 460 main bolts---as ARP's BBC main studs are--that the 460 guys might not see the cap walk that many do with their use.)
I may be somewhat frugal when it comes to putting a combinaton together, but I'm not doing so blindly. I simply choose to spend the customer's money wisely and effectively so that they get the most bang for their buck. I've learned which stock parts can be used safely in these engines and which cannot, and I don't use them to their limit. Also, when a hard-core customer comes along who clearly wants the best and can truly afford such an engine, we'll build accrodingly to suit his needs and budget. (Conversely, when the opposite type of customer comes along and wants the same engine, we decline the build. You know what I'm talking about. :D )
Finally, we most certainly would not build a blown alcohol engine (like the one I noted above) for a customer and make the best of used OEM parts. But we are building such an for ourselves right now. :p It is being built for old time's sake and also to hold us over and have fun until the real next car is completed. And if that oem parts engine grenades, oh well, we'll just throw another one in. :LOL: But we don't expect it to grenade.
Paul
Paul,I execpt you apology also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Kane
You mentioned something about caps "walking".
Whenever I go from ARP bolts to ARP studs I always have to line hone again.
Paul,you have me thinking.
How does a bolt hold a cap on differently than a stud?
Do the bolts make the caps "register" differently than studs?
With the bolt I am pulling on the block material to hold the cap in place.
With a stud I am pulling on the stud to hold the block in place.
Why do the caps with the studs seem to be more "out of round" than the caps with the bolts?
Golly I'm so happy ya'll kissed and made up! :LOL:
Now everything in the world is in harmonious balance once more! :3dSMILE:
Kitz
Most stud kits use a washer and a nut to secure the main cap.... Do you suppose the washer distributes the load differently and causes the misalignment of the mains????
Quite from the peanut gallery.:LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by kitz
I hear you Mooneye, You echo my sentiments. It was hard for me to lay down this kinda money for 20 bolts, especially after what I have already spent. My truck has been down all summer because I have to wait for the money each month to go from one part of the project to the next. I guess I was leaning toward the new bolts and just wanted it justified. At the least my mind will be at ease when I tromp down on the accelerator, but my wallet will be flat as a pancake when I pull up to the pumps.
thanks for the words of wisdom as always denny. the motor is stated by previous owner as a 12.5-1 compression. it cant have over 2000 miles on it, the reason i am replacing the cam is it is a .680 lift drag cam and is not street freindly at all. thats the only reason i will be cracking it open, but i want to inspect it thouroghly before it goes back in the car. and that will include pan and head removal, then mount it in the anglia and back to the mustang. it might already have ARP's in it anyway, but i will get new fasteners if the cash flow allows me to.