428 smokes ... #1 Cylinder only

My 428 smokes out the right side only. Happens when I accelerate, or even tap the gas in neutral. I have narrowed it down to #1 cylinder. Here's the facts:

All plugs look like new, .....white porcelin with a bit of tan showing, except #1. #1 has porcelin the colour of battleship gray and the center elctrode was a bit wet with what I think is oil.

A compression test shows 196 psi in all cylinders (well, most....I didn't check all), and a tiny drop in cylinder #1.....i.e. 195 psi....barely the width of the gauge needle.

If I disconnect the sparkplug wire from #1 cylinder, the smoking completely stops.

The smoke is white/gray, but smells like exhaust and is definately not water (steam). I thought oil smoke was usually blue, but maybe not, as I am running synthetic.

I removed the valve cover and changed the valve seals for #1 cylinder. They are the positive type. Anyway, no changve after changing seals. Oh.....no side-to-side play with the valves. Look fine in their bronze guides.

I can't tell about the intake manifold gasket, but it's my best guess so far. Kind of a pain to change, but it's probably my next step.

Engine has about 3000 miles on it. Problem may have always been there. I used to get too much smoke from accelerating. Changed the white accelerator pump cams to black and the smoke dissapeared from the left side, but left this problem still on the right side.

I was tinkering with the timing. I moved it from 10BTDC to 15BTDC when I disscovered my max total advance was only 24 degrees. After I did that, the smoke was way worse. No surprise as I'm sure intake manifold vacumm increased quite a bit with the ignition timing increase, therefore sucking in more oil, fuel, or whatever.

Oh......I use twin Holley's on a single plane divided plenum manifold. I can't see how it could be a problem. Even if it was puddling fuel on the manifold floor, more than one cylinder should be affected. But I mention it anyway just in case.

Any thoughts out there before I start tearing things apart? I appreciate any thoughts on the matter. Thank-you.

:confused:

Who did the assembly work? FE use head gaskets that are NOT symetric.

That is one side goes on "right side up" and the other side goes on backwards.

If the gasket on that side is on wrong, you'll have a leak (water) and it sure sounds like that's what you have.:eek:

I'll agree with the water as being the best chance of being the culprit. Since the 428 is a 332/352/390/406/427 in disguise, there is a distinct possibility that the nasty intake/head gasket interface may have a small leak - which would not show up in a compression test. If you have an aluminum manifold, and I assume you do with dual quads, there may be some erosion or corrosion and allowing some water to leak by. If you are using plain water without antifreeze, the pH can go or be "off". If you have anti freeze, and if it's old - same thing. Acidic by products of combustion will eventually seep a bit into the cooling system, high pressure to low, regardless of how good a set of gaskets you have.

Think positive - if it's not a cast iron manifold, at least it wont weigh 87 pounds and require 2 large men and a small boy to lift off - been there.........:LOL:

Thanks for the reply guys. Water.....hmmm.....usually with water, the smoke (steam) dissipates almost immediately, plus you can smell the sweet antifreeze aroma in the air. This smoke hangs around for a while and only smells like exhaust. However, the fact that it is white (whitish-gray) and the spark-plug appears to be oil fouled has kept me from thinking water. Mind you, water is next to #1, and there is no oil passage near #1.

As far as the assembly work, I did it. I do my own engines for two reasons....1/ I enjoy it, and 2/ if a mistake is made, I have only myself to blame and try to get on with fixing it and avoid waranty issues with someone else. Anyway, I doubt I made a gasket installation error, but it's possible.

the old joke......"I thought I made a mistake once, but it turned out I was in error"

Interestingly, I already changed the head gaskets on this enigine. When I first put it togehter, I accidently used Fel-pro "economy" head gaskets. I did get a water leak into....hmmm....either #2 or #3 cylinder...can't remember which. I don't remember a lot of smoke from that, however I do remember water in the oil and water leaking into the cylinder when it sat overnight. I used Fel-pro high performance gaskets when I did that repair.

I think once I get the intake off (and the only annoying part is draining the coolant....LOL), I'll hook the air hose to #1 and see if I can detect any air coming out around the headgasket (in the valley area). I've already done this with the engine together and the valve cover off, and couldn't detect any air around what you can see of the intake gasket.

Call me silly, but it bothers me that I have that slight compression loss in #1 compared to the others. It's a ridicuosly small difference, but it si a difference. So if it points to a small head gasket leak,.....then there's another issue.

Any moe pointers are appreciated, however once I get this resolved, I will post what I find in case others have the same problem, and to satisfy the curious.

Thanks again.

Hmmm....I wrote a response, and it's not here...oh well.....I'll try again.

First of all, thank-you for your replies. I did the assembly work, and don't think I made a gasket installation mistake, but of course it's possible.

I had discounted water as the problem because of oil on the plug and the fact the smoke doesn't dissipate quickly like steam would, plus it smells like exhaust, not the sweet aroma of antifreeze. But you guys have made me think more about water as the culprit. There is no oil gallerys near #1 plug, but there is water galleries around it.

Think I'll re-pressurize the cylinder and see if there's any bubbles in the puke-tank. Once I get the intake off, I can pressurize again and look for leaks around what I can see of the head gasket. I already did this with valve cover off, looking for air around what i could see of the intake manifold gasket, but could not detect anything.

Yes, the manifold is aluminum.....an Offenhauser 360, which from what I hear isn't that great a manifold, however with a light car, it seems to work fine. (Bad port matches though). It wasn't suffering from any corrosion when I installed it, although things happen.

Although it's only a tiny change in compression, the fact that #1 does measure less than the others bothers me. Could point to a head gasket leak.

Hopefully I can start the tear-down tomorrow. The part I don't like is draining off some coolant. Car is low and a pain to get up in the air to put a bucket under it....er....a couple of buckets....these engines hold a LOT, evn when you just need a bit out (to get the level lower than the heads). The rest of the work is easy enough.

Thanks again. Please feel free to post any more thoughts. I will certainly post my results once I find out what's going on.....to help someone else who may have the same problem, and to satisfy the curious.....chuckle.

Hmmm....I wrote a response, and it's not here...oh well.....I'll try again.

First of all, thank-you for your replies. I did the assembly work, and don't think I made a gasket installation mistake, but of course it's possible.

I had discounted water as the problem because of oil on the plug and the fact the smoke doesn't dissipate quickly like steam would, plus it smells like exhaust, not the sweet aroma of antifreeze. But you guys have made me think more about water as the culprit. There is no oil gallerys near #1 plug, but there is water galleries around it.

Think I'll re-pressurize the cylinder and see if there's any bubbles in the puke-tank. Once I get the intake off, I can pressurize again and look for leaks around what I can see of the head gasket. I already did this with valve cover off, looking for air around what i could see of the intake manifold gasket, but could not detect anything.

Yes, the manifold is aluminum.....an Offenhauser 360, which from what I hear isn't that great a manifold, however with a light car, it seems to work fine. (Bad port matches though). It wasn't suffering from any corrosion when I installed it, although things happen.

Although it's only a tiny change in compression, the fact that #1 does measure less than the others bothers me. Could point to a head gasket leak.

Hopefully I can start the tear-down tomorrow. The part I don't like is draining off some coolant. Car is low and a pain to get up in the air to put a bucket under it....er....a couple of buckets....these engines hold a LOT, evn when you just need a bit out (to get the level lower than the heads). The rest of the work is easy enough.

Thanks again. Please feel free to post any more thoughts. I will certainly post my results once I find out what's going on.....to help someone else who may have the same problem, and to satisfy the curious.....chuckle.

I've tried to add to this post......so far unsuccesfully....so this will be the short version as it may not work again:

Got the intake off. Oil leak around intake. Wasn't water. I pressure tested cylinder and no bubbles or pressure build-up in puke tank.

My fault I think. I used 3" long bolts for the 8 long intake bolts. Supposed to be 2 and 5/8". I think the bolts were bottoming out before the intake was completely tight.

Gaskets really sealed well around the water passages. I used gasket sealer there. Think I will coat both gaskets completey....both sides. Probably hell to remove, but.....

Thanks guys. Once I get this working, I'll let you to know to confirm what I've found so far.

Sounds like you have it handled, let us know how things work out! Some of us still consider the FE's to be one of Ford's finest!!!!!!

I thought I had it handled too, BUT.....changed the manifold gaskets and it still smokes.

It doesn't smoke when cold, but begins after running a few minutes. Gets worse as the engine heats up (oil getting thinner?)

All spark plugs other than #1 look perfect. #1 looks "oily".

Another Compression test (of all 8 cylinders) showed pressures between 195 and 205.

When changing the gasket, the original didn't seem sealed around the #1 intake port. There was oil on the cylinder head around teh port and inside the gasket opening for the port. Looking back up the intake manifold, #1 seemed a bit wet. Underside inspection did not reveal any cracks in the intake manifold.

Besides shortening the manifold bolts to the proper length, I also did away with the manifold end seals and just used silicon instead.....just in case the cork was too think and the manifold wasn't droppiong down completely.

So......because it seems to get worse as the engine wearms up, I do not think there is a mechanical problem. Besides, the CR is fine. So I get back to gasket issues. Guess I'll have to get manifold/head angles checked and check the head gasket (would be one crazy leaking head gasket to leak oil into #1 cylinder.....just miles of cast iron between cylinder and any source of oil....not like a water leak).

Anyway.....all that work so far, and no improvement.....sigh............

Eventually I'll fix it, but it may become a winter project....

I still feel that with the white/gray smoke that you have more of a chance of a water leak. If you can find a radiator pressure checker - not sure if they make a garage size any longer - put it in place, pump it up and keep an eye on it - also pull plug #1. Here's one on eBay; http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MAC-T...mZ250277411365

A compression check wont always find a water leak.

Another check to make is a compression "leak down test". Here's a description of an inexpensive test method: http://www.geocities.com/dsmgrrrl/FAQs/leakdown.htm or here http://www.wcengineering.com/articles/leakdown.html

Thanks for the reply IC2. I can't honestly say it's NOT water, because I don't know what the fault is yet. However, the smoke doesn't smell like antifreeze, it hangs in the air a long time, unlike steam, when I pressurized the cylinder, or run the engine, no bubbles appear in the water in the expansion-tank, and I did a pressure test on the cooling system, and couldn't find anything. I have a pressure tester similiar to the one on e-bay, however it doesn't always seal well around the expansion tank, so holding pressure wasn't much of a test. However, it did pressurize and no coolant entered the cylinder.

I tried sort of a home-made leak-down test. I pressurized the cylinder to 40+ psi and measured the time for the pressure to drop from 40 to zero. It did seem quicker in #1, but I really wasn't getting consistency between any of the cylinders, even though I put each one at its TDC for the test. I may try to make a real leak-down tester. Just a couple of gauges, a 0.040" , 1/4" long restrictor and some plumbing bits and pieces.

Basically, I have to take things back apart. Since I used gasket sealer around all ports this time (not just the water passage), the gaskets should be stuck pretty good. If there's an area of the gasket that's not stuck, it indicates oil got by.

I think the problem is beyond internet help as even if I made a video, you couldn't smell the smoke.....LOL. It definately smells like exhaust and burns the eyes (and it's more gray than white, sometimes yellowish). SO.....if I don't find anything after stipping down the manifold (again...sigh), I'll take that cylinder head off and check the gasket. If I still can't find anything, I'll have to jack the car up, remove the oil pan, and remove #1 con-rod cap, pull the piston, and inspect the cylinder and rings.

Just so weird.....smoking gets worse as the engine heats up.......weird.....

Thanks again for the help. Not a lot on the FE on the internet anymore.

I feel for you with an FE tear down staring at you. There is nothing easy about them. There is another site that I frequent and will PM the info to you. There are a few more FE folks there and one in particular, but he has been absent lately - summer ya know!!

I had that same problem with a tripower manifold on a 390. Fought it for months and then decided to go back to a 4 barrel. Changed manifold and the smoke went away. I asked a big time Ford drag racer about it and he said look for a crack in the underside of the intake runner. Sure enough there it was, welded the crack, reinstalled, and smoke went away. I was told that many of the stock Ford aluminum intakes did that??? The crack was very hairline in nature really had to clean it well to see it.

John

Had a similar problem with a Ford Y-block last year. After much frustration I finally found that someone in the past had ported the head and got a bit carried away and ground the intake runner paper thin. Finally it cracked and was allowing oil to be sucked into the head, causing that cylinder to smoke and fouling the plug. It wasn't in a spot that could be welded, and the owner didn't want to pay for a new head, so some careful work with some epoxy sealed the crack. A year later it's still running strong.

Thanks guys. No porting done, so hopefully stock heads are thick enough, although a crack did occur to me. I did look at the underside of the manifold for cracks and didn't see any, but that certainly doesn't mean there isn't one. It did look a bit "wet" looking up the manifold intake runner.

I wonder how they check aluminum for cracks.....I doubt magnafluxing would work..... And it's not a Ford manifold....it's a 2x4 360Deg Offenhauser, so "readily available" is not likely. Bad port matching anyway......would try to find a different 2x4 manifold....mind you, then there's that epoxy idea.....

anyways, you guys are right....I need to do a close inspection for manifold cracks.......thank-you

I thought I'd post a follow-up as some of the reader's might be interested in what I eventually found out:

After a number of delays, I finally got the engine out a few days ago. GF helped (what a good girl!!!). Car was jacked up a bit high and a little too far ahead in the garage. Once I got the engine high enough to drag the hoist back, the tip of the hoist boom was too high to clear the flourescent light fixture. Took out the bulbs, dropped the engine as far as I dared and managed it somehow.

This morning, I managed to get the #1 piston out. Ring "land" between second and oil ring was broken away. 2nd ring was broken. Part of the oil ring seperator was missing and I found the little corrugated pieces sucked up against the oil pick-up.

So.....I might be able to get a replacement piston, but most likely will have to buy a set. Best thing really as some of the others may be cracked. #1 showed the most signs of detonation, but 2, and 3 showed respectively decreasing amounts. #4 was fine. On the driver's side, 5 through 8 were all OK.

Rod bearing on #1 was fine, not worn, but showed a bit of chatter marks as the piston was hammered by the detonation, so I'l change the rod bearings. I'll get the heads resurfaced as there is a bit of detoantion pitting on them. Probably won't get all of it off, but enough that I shouldn't get hot-spots and subsequent pre-ignition.

So...new pistons and rings, rod-bearings, cylinder de-glazing and a new damper and gaskets should fix me up.

Think I will put new spark-plug wires in too. #1 wire measured about 18Kohms...if I remember correctly, and the others all were between 10K and 12K. Shoudn't be an issue, but I had an outboard motor that kept melting the same piston unitl I discovered the pick-up coil for that cylinder was intermittent.

So what did I learn from all this?

1/ The old story of Ford FE dampers slipping their outer ring is NOT an old wive's tale. I caued the detonation myself by adjsuting the timing with the damper ring shifted. At least 20 degrees further advanced then where I thought it was!

2/ A compression check doesn't necessarily show up major damage, but a leak-down test will, even a sort of bogus home made leak-down test.

3/ An FE with forged pistons can handle a hell of a lot of ignition advance before things go screwy.

4/ In a convertible, with headers and sidepipes, I can't hear detonation.

5/ Burning oil can cause white-gray smoke, not necessarily blue.

Comments anyone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Argess

I thought I'd post a follow-up as some of the reader's might be interested in what I eventually found out:


Comments anyone?

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Been a long process hasn't it - between here and the "other" site, we gave you lots of hints and advice - some good, and some.......**) :D

Yes, IC2,.....it took a long time to sort out. I guess it was just human nature to hope it was something minor, so I went with the slow method....LOL. Thank-you (and everyone else) for your advice.

It's been an interesting problem. I finally had an engine issue that one usually only reads about (unless one races.....chuckle).