Nuff Said! :LOL::LOL::3dSMILE:**)Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
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Nuff Said! :LOL::LOL::3dSMILE:**)Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
At Springfield, talking to the guys from N&N and looking at the cars I decided that I really wanted to go back to a hood top for the '33. When I got home I called Duane, he put one in the queue for me, but had one already done so I made a run to AR Friday 6/4 to pick it up, and to attend a HS reunion on the way home Saturday. When I got home Sunday, having previously set the body, grille and splash aprons back in place I set the hood on and was dismayed to find it 3" short! I called Duane on Monday and we chatted about having to lay the grille back, which for me meant having to shift the bottom forward to stay out of the pulleys with the fan. Soooo, I set the engine back in place, and started the chase for clearance. Bottom line, the hood is going to work fine, and the grille will look a lot better laid back three inches at the top - a more aggressive line. In order to get the three inches at the top and stay out of the pulleys I trimmed 7/16" from the motor mounts and relieved the tranny mount a little to slide the engine back, slid the bottom of the radiator forward and let it lay back and inverted the fan shroud to drop the puller fan lower relative to the water pump pulley. I cut out the radiator mounts and made some new ones to kick down and out, welding them in place thinking I could use the splash apron to "adjust" the final resting position of the grille - a bad assumption. I kept fighting the hood, which was now playing a part in positioning the radiator/grille instead of simply setting in place on them, and things just were not right - every time I pressed down the back edge the front popped out and the radiator layed back into the pulleys. After messing with it for several days, including re-mounting doors to do another trim on the headers for door clearance I stepped back and started measuring alignments and taking a new tack on mounting the radiator, which is the top mount point for the grille.
A few mis-steps and re-do's but I think I about have the hood fitting licked in the big picture. Like I said, I made a mistake of trying to use the splash aprons to "adjust" the final radiator angle and that did not work - they are simply fillers to hold the grille shell, and need to be used that way. Unfortunately I did a bit of trimming on the aprons in the process, which I should not have done, but I would have been extending them more anyway as it turned out. I came to realize that my radiator mount angle was off with my new mounts, which was causing me some big headaches, but more of an issue was that it sat a bit off-square with the body by about 3/8" when aligned "as received" and I had maintained that mis-alignment with the new mounts. Once I got that figured out things started falling into place. I cut out the new radiator brackets, made another set and tacked them into place followed by the grille and hood - still off a little so I ground away the front tacks and angled them up a tad more and clamped a piece of angle beneath for final fitment. The hood layed in place nicely with no stress, and my fan to pulley clearance was a bit over 1/2" - cool beans!! I bolted the splash aprons to the frame, shifted the grille forward a bit for AC condenser connection clearance and found a nominal 1.5" gap between splash apron and grille. I took some thin aluminum siding flashing and pop riveted it in as a backer plate, waxed it and the grille shell, and glassed the gap using bondo gel resin and six or seven layers of woven cloth - should be plenty strong, but I may add a top and bottom metal brace inside where it is hidden just for grins. Here's the "look" with the radiator and grille layed back a bit, and the hood top in place, and a couple of the very rough gel resin fiberglass fill of the gap. Today I will take the splash aprons and grille loose to pop the extended aprons off of the grille to trim the front edge to the cut line on the back side, and will do a bit of conturing to see if I need another layer or two of cloth in the thick places. I think it will be a pretty good profile once it is done. Oh yeah, with the grill pushed forward the SS "V" spreader bar would not even come close to fitting, so I boxed the front of the rails, too. Still need to do the rounded cap on the front edge and weld the bottom side when I flip the chassis, but they will look better than the open rails. One more piece for the "..why did I order this??" shelf...:rolleyes:
Nice angle on the grille shell now Rog! Looks like another case of one step forward, two steps back? Oh well, happens around here all the time!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL:
After getting the hood sitting in place with no stresses it was time to figure out the mounting hardware. For any who have not gone through the process, here are the basic steps I took, and a few pictures. I may have gone about this backwards, but it seemed right to me and it seems to have worked out OK because the hood latches in place and is secure, and I did not mess up the mounting hardware cutting it to length. :LOL:
I bought the 42" Carolina Customs top only hood mount system (they offer 36" and 42" kits, both cut to length), since I don't ever plan to run hood sides, and I really don't like the look of a 2" filler piece ("dummy" side panel) to hide the hinge mechanism if you buy the three panel hinged system and elect to go sans sides. The top only system has everything tucked behind the hood top, out of sight. I figure if I ever decide I need hood sides I will buy a new CC hinged mounting kit and either a metal hood, or more likely metal sides for this hood top. The CC kit consists of two pieces per side - one piece to mount to the hood that has two sturdy latch pins 16" apart (can be cut to fit between hood braces), and one piece that mounts between body and grille that has the latch assemblies, all made from 1"H x 0.5"W aluminum bar stock. They also give you four generic 3/16" plate mounting brackets and a handful of bolts/nuts, but the instructions tell you that every installation is unique, and you need to adapt the brackets to your car. I used two of the brackets for parts to fabricate my rear firewall mounts, but needed custom plates for the pieces that bolted on the firewall, and they are unique for each side due to minor differences in the firewall projections.
I elected to trim the hood pin bar stock pieces to length and mount them to the hood flange first. Since the system is really made for a metal hood I found that I needed to make my glass hood bottom flange a bit wider to give me the needed area for through bolts. I clamped a piece of aluminum flat stock to the existing flange after grinding away the gel coat, waxed it for release and built up the flange with glass matt and resin, then trimmed it to the needed width. Once done I clamped the hood pin bars in place, drilled five mounting holes per bar, marking the bar for holes, and then drilled and tapped the ten 10-32 holes to mount the bars. With the hood in place I noted that the CC instructions called for the hood pin bar and the latch bar to maintain a 1/4" space between the two bars at the latch points for proper clearance of the pin mechanism. This spacing sets the mounting points on both the firewall and the radiator/grille for the latch bar, so my approach was to make two wooden bars that mimiced the latch bar dimensions, but with an extra 1/4" at the latch points for the needed clearance. Before starting any fitting I cut a 1x1 wood spacer bar to set the final position of the radiator/grille relative to the body, taking up the slack in the spring mounts that hold the radiator to the mounts - a stick wedged between the firewall and the top of the radiator cut to allow the hood to set in place with no interference. With the hood in position and taped to hold, those wood latch bar pieces let me set & mark the latch bar mounting locations at both ends, and then it was a matter of fabricating brackets for the firewall and the radiator out of 3/16" plate, using the keyhole mounts provided by PRC at the radiator end and through bolts at the firewall. On the firewall end I made a little mounting plate for the inside to spread the load and to allow adjustment(by enlarging the holes through the body a bit) - 1/4" plate with a couple of 1/4X20 tapped holes. The mounts on the front bolt to the radiator and angle out to align with the back. Adjustment is by using washers between the mounting plate and radiator or the mounting plate and latch bar.
Like I said, my approach may have been out of sequence for someone else, but it worked for me. As has been recommended here several times (Da34Guy for one) it is a big plus to fit the hood and do the bracket work with the engine out of the way - you can get inside, clamp bars in place, look at the fit from the inside out, and get it right so much easier.
Looks like yer making headway Rog. love the look of the laidback grille.
BTW ---Who's grille and shell ya usin?
Don
Thanks, Don. The grill insert is Alumicraft and the shell is from N&N. I bought the radiator, shell, grill insert and splash aprons as part of the roller package.Quote:
Originally Posted by DA34GUY
Got the frame horn boxing finished, and fab'd a relief in a crossmember to clear the e-brake connections on the floor. The frame is now totally stripped and on a pair of engine stands, getting ready for paint. Today I'm segregating an end of the shop with plastic to serve as a paint booth. Looking forward to getting the frame painted so that I can put things on for what I hope is the last time for a long time...
Great progress and some excellent work Roger! Anxious to see the car start turning all shiny and pretty!!!!!!
Got my headers back from Jet Hot Coatings a few days back, coated inside & out with their "extreme sterling" good for 1700F+. I'm very happy with their result on my first timer headers. :D
Before pulling the body I pulled the engine and looked at the HVAC and battery bulkhead location. I'm using a XS Power AGM battery mounted up under the dash, so I was looking for a location that was close to the starter but somewhat hidden from view. The '33/'34 has an ideal place in the kickout adjacent to the kick panel area, right next to the bellhousing area. I got the 90 el bulkhead fittings from Vintage Air.
I made a set of reinforcement plates, 3x4x1/4" with Grade 8 bolts for the seats, to be bonded to the underside of the body. I also mounted the Lokar E-Brake handle, and noted that the cable connector was going to interfere at a frame crossmember unless I rebuilt the unit to extend the connecting arm, which would have totally changed the geometry and forces in the E-Brake linkage. I marked the frame to look at with the body removed.
I pulled the body, and decided that modifying the crossmember was the best approach, and I elected a bridge approach. I had a strong 3/16" clear between the floor and the crossmember, so I first tacked a 3/16" plate in place and cut the crossmember at 45's, for a nominal 4" bump up. I ended up with 3/8" across the top, and 3/16 end caps on the tubes. Here's a couple of shots of the process, plus one of the primed result.
I primed the chassis before doing the fill, to seal any pinholes in the welds and joints. It looked pretty good to see it all black. I got all of the low spots filled and shot another coat of primer, but messed up the gun and ended up with drips and sags I spent Friday fixing everything, and this morning went out to try again, having picked up the color and clear yesterday at the paint shop. I noticed some sanding residue, so I decided to wash down the chassis one more time. I used Dawn to cut any oils, rinsed it good and then blew it dry. Wiped everything with wax & grease remover, using a wet rag/dry rag approach, and mixed the primer. Shot the differential first, then hit the chassis - Fisheyes!! I went around the whole thing, then decided to go ahead and use the remainder of the paint I had mixed. Looks like I made two mistakes - 1) using Dawn, which has some additives for soft skin, and 2) using clean rags that had been through the laundry cycle, and had fabric softener residue. Now I get to wait a few hours, sand down an area and hit it with primer to see if the epoxy sealed the contaminants beneath the primer layer. I'm not calling "Uncle" yet, but I'm getting a bit frustrated with this paint process....
A few shots of the progress.
rspears, I don't know if it helps any but, I follow your progress and make note of each problem so I (hopefully) don't repeat them! 8-) And you do such meticulous work!
well, re-dos suck, but it is a way to learn. Silicone be bad for paint work.
For having clean, uncontaminated "rags" for wipe down (or other tasks) I like these from Scott. Last I saw they were about $10/box at the big box hardware guys. They're sturdy, soft, no lint, and absorbant.
Yeah, when I did the first primer coat I used the blue paper towel "Shop Rags" and had no problem, but did get a bit of "lint". This morning I thought, "Why not use a nice clean cotton cloth?", then I may have exacerbated the problem with my next thought, "Rather than use the car cleaner soap which protects the wax, why not use dishwashing soap that cuts wax and grease?" Talking to my paint guy he says only use a specific glass cleaner or pure water, and never use anything that has been through the household laundry, as it will have some amount of fabric softeners, etc. I am tiring of sanding down this frame!! :LOL: I suppose it is good exercise.....
34_40, thanks for the comment, and it does help. I only wish I did not have so many problems for your notebook!!:o:LOL::CRY:Quote:
Originally Posted by 34_40
Roger,
All the paint manufacturers make a cleaning solvent for paint prep. I have used DuPont Prep-Sol many times.
I like the grille angle. It reminds me of a yellow car in storage in Virginia . . .
Jack,Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
Good to see you pop in from Italy. Hope all is well and you are enjoying the travel.
Yeah, I'm using Matrix Pre-Paint Final Cleaner and Matrix paint. I did a small frame panel test last night with about four hours of dry time, sanding down an area with fisheyes smooth, cleaning it and spraying a coat of primer. Still got fisheyes, so my paint guy suggested leaving it alone overnight to see if the primer would seal in the bad stuff. This morning I repeated the test, but also prepped a piece of barn siding to eliminate the mystery of the earlier potential contaminants (laundered rags and Dawn soap). Both the frame and barn siding fisheyed, which points to microscopic oil in the air supply. I cannot see any evidence of oil in the filter/regulator condensate (oil sheen, odor, or even taste :)) so if it is there it is minute. Tomorrow is a trip to Graingers for a coalescing filter; Lowe's for a new, dedicated air hose for painting and some copper fittings; and the paint store for a couple of his high flow DeVilbiss quick connects that have 3/8" internals. Once that is installed I will shoot another barn siding test panel, then if all is OK will try a small panel on the sanded area of the frame. If it is OK I can sand away the fisheyes, hit it with a light coat of primer, and get on with shooting color. If not then I get to sand off everything I put on yesterday :CRY:, scrub & wash till my fingers bleed:CRY::CRY:, and shoot test panels until things are right:CRY::CRY::CRY:.
Glad you like the grille angle. If you recall I asked you about the angle of yours before I took the plunge, and told you I had captured pictures of your car as my screen saver at work for inspiration. If mine looks half as good as yours I will be a happy guy!
I feel your pain Roger. My compressor is going out on me and started spitting out a lot of oil so I ordered a new pump for my compressor and will have to buy all new hoses as well as clean out my tank. I couldn't even blow off my car without getting oil on it. So until my pump gets here I just used one of those little dryer filters that go before the spray guy for added protection in front of my blower nozzle and that seemed to work. I haven't gotten to the point of priming anything yet but you can bet I will be picking up some scott's towels and some more wax and grease remover before I do. I had never had any problems with laundried rags before but after reading your problems I won't be taking a chance. Don't forget to flush out your gun real good before you put any primer in it.
Just got done reading all 6+ pages. Very nice build!!!! I am scared to death to try painting myself. Think I'll wait some more.....
Love the ideas you are coming up with. Will be waching...
David
Thanks for the comment! Today I went ahead and sanded the frame smooth, figuring that at a minimum that was going to be necessary, and at worst I will have to sand deeper. I also spent some time rotating the frame, planning the spray patterns for color and color/clear. I'm hoping that the new filter and line will solve the problems, and that I will have color & clear on tomorrow afternoon. Fingers remain firmly crossed tonight!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsprint2000
Sadly, all I can do is nod my head and say yes! I guess on one hand I wish you weren't filling so much of my notebook for me :whacked::LOL: , but you and the comments from the guys really do help so much! I'm crossing my fingers that the new parts cure the fisheye!Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
I also purchased 2 filters / dryers to add into my airline which always had a 2 stage air dryer. I had that happen on a prior project (water or oil in line).
Keep up the great work, your so close - I'm jealous! :D
I don't know if you have a detail gun, or if your primary gun can be adjusted down to a narrow fan, either one helps get around nooks, crannies, and small diameter tubing, otherwise a lot of material ends up as overspray.Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Well, both guys at the paint store (experienced painters, not just paint sellers) are scratching their heads along with me. This morning I visited them, taking along a condensate sample from my filter, and we talked about every step of the process. I explained that before leaving home I took a sheet of glass, cleaned it well, and directed an air stream at it for two to three minutes getting zero residue. They believed that buying a coallescing filter was a waste, since there was zero evidence of oil. We discussed the possibility of hose deterioration, so I bought a new Flexzilla hose and DeVilbliss quick connect and headed home. I installed the new hose, hooked up the gun and mixed up a small batch of black urethane. Shot the frame and had immediate fisheyes so after snapping a few pictures I cleaned it off with thinner. I grabbed a piece of plate, ground off the mill scale, cleaned it with wax & grease remover and shot color - nasty fisheyes!!
Back to the paint store we went through every step and could not find any smoking guns. I came home with a loaner SATA gun to try, instead of the Harbor Freight Purple Wonder (wonder why I bought it????) There is no rational explanation, but the SATA gun layed down paint very close to glass finish. There were a few little flaws in the test area, but nothing like I had seen before. After talking to my paint guy I prepped several pieces and shot color and color/clear. Results were great, in my opinion.
Tomorrow I will do a quick prep on the frame and get it shot early, before taking the SATA gun back :cool: Again, I cannot explain the fisheyes with the HF gun, but my two are going in the trash, or at least in a box in the corner for now....:D
Silicone based spray lubricants have long been known to cause issues such as this. The tiny particles will hang in the air for a long time. In paint production facilities, any silicone is prohibited. Check and see where your spray lubes are stored. Are any leaking?
Your project looks great!
Have you ever used any fish eye eliminator in your guns? I have been told ( I don't know if is true) That once you use it you will always have to use it in that gun. I am sorry you had to go through all of that to find your problem but at least you found it.
No fisheye eliminator, they were new out of the box, but I believe you are 100% right on that. In conversation with my paint guy he shared that fisheye eliminator is basically silicone, and the intent is to turn the entire paint layer into one big fisheye to equalize the surface tension. In a production shop, then if the guy puts his gun in the collective gun washer he introduces silicone into the wash process, and often results in a fisheye problem for everyone until they purge the system and clean everything. I have two good coats on everything, and I think I am going to do one more for grins and then hit it with a final sugar coat and be done. It is not near show quality, but it looks pretty good at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Smith
Deja vu . . . deja vu . . . deja vu . . . deja . . . de . ... nevermind.
Well it's not vuja de... 'cause I never saw that one coming! Spraygun causing the headache! I'll keep that one in the back of my mind! It's amazing that even after the cleanup from the first attempts, it still reacted a second time! WOW!
Roger I heard the same thing from the local paint shop. They recogmend not to use the fisheye eliminator, but to clean everything really well, and use filters at the base of the gun like you already have. Don't know what will happen when I join you this fall for the same thing!
Scooter and Dsprint, thanks for the kind words on the project. To my knowledge there's no silicone around.
Bob, 34-40, Mr Smith, Jack, thanks for suggestions and tips. Everything I learn here is valuable knowledge, often paid for by sweat, frustrations and a few thrown wrenches in the past.
Steve, I didn't sand away as much as I put on, but I sanded away a lot of paint! It's not perfect by any means, but looking at that chassis and components is a very satisfying step in the learning process for me.
This is fresh out of the booth area after an overnight drying time, and today I get to sand it down again, :eek:but this time with 1500 grit and lots of water and Ivory soap to take a few flaws away. It's hard to get a decent shot of paint indoors in bad lighting, so I did the old ruler (engineer's scale :o) reflection to give an idea.
Does your clothes dryer vent anywhere near the shop, or does the normal airflow around the house where it vents carry toward the shop?Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Roger - that chassis really looks nice (even if it isn't powder coat:LOL::LOL:). I hope you threw that HF purple POS away. Mine lasted about long enough to spray a bit of epoxy primer and turn some parts of my garage gray from overspray. Then I bought an Iwata........:D. A $20 POS to a $450 gun in one easy step - well really two. My primer gun is a Finishline 3, with a nice Sharpe in between that ended up surplus (Mike - have you tried it yet?)
Bob,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter
That is good, out of the box thinking, but should not be an issue here. The shop is 150' from the end of the house and the dryer vent is around back.
I did lots of "no-no's" due to lack of experience - I soaked the frame in WD40 to prevent surface rust in the unheated barn and before painting I should have loaded my spray gun with lacquer thinner and flooded the chassis and parts several times to wash it away, vs hand wiping with blue paper towels wet with thinner several times; I used cloth rags that had been dried with fabric softener sheets at one point (just before fisheyes); I added Dawn "Plus" in my wash water once (just before fisheyes); I had a wasp invasion one afternoon while sanding, and sprayed them airborn with insectiside (has parafins to stick to the critters); and my wax & grease remover approach was to wet a rag, wipe wet & wipe dry vs putting the liquid in a spray bottle, wetting the surface and then drying with a clean paper cloth. What is boggling is that my first coats of primer were fine, then all of a sudden I got the evil eye. In chasing potential problems and eliminating things by re-cleaning, changing approach, new hose, etc, time past and primer cured more. Time may have been the solution, but having a good SATA gun for a day was a big, big improvement in my control. Of course, it may have been that the Fisheye Spirit got tired of my shop, and rode the wind to another place.... or it may be resting, waiting for me to get the gun out again, too.
:LOL:Sometimes the devil is involved!
I'll give the short version of my tale of woe. Nearly two decades ago a pretty new car was brought to the shop for a minor repair and panel refinish. The first refinish came off in sheets. This caused us to have to expand our paint field (for color match reasons, a tough to match, light goldish color). This happened again and again to where my painter was at wits end, and we got my supplier involved and they had two of their expert painters redo it....twice more! Long story short, we completely repainted that car three times before it finally stuck, and to this day don't know what the real problem was. My suspicion was the "clear coat protectant" that the dealers typically sold for $300 or so. But the dealer was a referral source so we did lots of cars that they treated. We used every precleaning process known at the time. No other job in the shop shot with the same materials, same painter, same equipment, same environment, yada yada, had this kind of failure. In the end we named it the "Camry from Hell" and were extremely happy to see it go away.
Just goes to show you no matter how bad we think it is somebody has it or has had it worse then us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter
Roger - run, do not walk, but get that WD-40 and any other aerosol lubricant out of your painting area. While WD-40's MSDS doesn't list silicone, it does say "proprietary ingredients"
Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates 64742-47-8
64742-88-7
45-50%
Petroleum Base Oil 64742-58-1
64742-53-6
64742-56-9
64742-65-0
30-35%
Non-Hazardous Ingredients Proprietary <10%
Surfactant Proprietary <2%
Carbon Dioxide 124-38-9 2-3%
Bolding is mine
Nope, not yet. I hope to in September / October.Quote:
Originally Posted by IC2
Roger, the frame is lookin' awesome!
34_40 - Thanks! It looks better tonight - I overcame my fears and wet sanded it with 1500, then hit it with a variable speed buffer, white foam pad w/white compound, then blue foam pad with the blue finishing compound. The paint was only about 24 hours old, so the polishing process went quick. I'll post a couple of shots when I have it back on wheels with the engine in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by 34_40
Dave,
I understand the WD40 issue, but my comment was that I did not do a thorough job of cleaning the frame and parts, knowing that I had soaked them with WD40 nine months ago - a necessary step given my work environment, and a very common situation with OEM parts. IDIDIT points out that their bare columns are sprayed with WD40 to prevent corrosion prior to painting, and that the buyer needs to properly clean the column before painting. I should have soaked the frame with thinner several times, flipping it over to coat all sides, and let it drip. Next time....
My "spray area" is a segregated 10x30 area in a 30x60 barn, and to physically remove every product from the barn that may have bad stuff in it for paint is not pracitcal. What is practical for me is to remember all of this stuff for next time, and to take extra measures to clean, clean, clean before thinking about spraying. There is nothing in my spray area but the products associated with the paint process.
Bob,
That Camry sounds like it had "Ming" or a similar product on the paint. Ming finish was very popular in the midwest back in the 70's - some polymer coating that chemically bound to the paint. I heard that body shops had no choice but to paint panels on Ming cars, first stripping them to bare metal and no blending across panel breaks.
I finally got to the point where I could put some primer on my car so I broke out the new gun I bought from a local tool shop a few months ago just for primer. After reading your problems I thought I would take it apart and see what I would find before using it. And wouldn't you know it I found what looked like a lot of oil in it. I rinsed everything with acetone then sprayed a cup of acetone through it. Hopefully I won't see any fisheye when it comes paint time.
Glad you found the oil and purged it. Generally if you put a charge of lacquer thinner in the gun and shoot it through it should clean out the critical areas, but with anything made in China or the Pacific Rim and shipped in you may have some pretty heavy preservatives, like cosmoline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Smith
I'm still not sure what caused my problems, but I bought a new gun today and it shot primer great. In defense of the Harbor freight gun, I did buy a gun mounted regulator with this new gun, and I had not been running one before so I really have no idea what my pressure was at the gun with the drop through a 50' hose. As I was headed out to the shop this morning I did notice this on the counter that seemed to be appropriate to my problems. I don't think we'll buy any more of this stuff, just in case .....
That certainly could have contributed to the problems in oh so many ways. :)