Good point! But we also need a draw, something to do besides just hanging out.Quote:
Originally Posted by NTFDAY
I know the thread, this topic has been a burr in my side since it was mentioned there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
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Good point! But we also need a draw, something to do besides just hanging out.Quote:
Originally Posted by NTFDAY
I know the thread, this topic has been a burr in my side since it was mentioned there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Okay, maybe a little insight into the Bonneville experience would be useful. Dave is correct, it is HOT in August, and the sun reflecting off the white salt makes it doubly so. During the time that the course is open a race team can be very busy tuning, refitting, repairing, and so on. However, that doesn't mean that the "support" team couldn't be enjoying the sights, sounds, and overall experience. Nightime in Wendover is pretty much a party in each of the motel parking lots with lots of cruising, and bench racing (known to the outside world as lying..............make that exaggerating). Also, there's the camp site at the bend in the road, again (close to the track), a gathering place where (if you've brought the right equipment) bbqs can be done, adult beverages, and bs a plenty. Some of the campers get a bit rowdy, fireworks are common, and revelry into the wee hours of the morning are not uncommon. Since it is a "bucket list" kind of place it's a natural for gathering of online acquaintances, and, IMO a great choice for meeting up in person. As has been the SEMA show. We have a small group (we're down to 4 regulars now.....three of whom no longer post here, or not much) that gets together each year and walks the floor together. Great comraderie!
The other sites noted could be good too, and the expectation should be that not everyone can free up time, or expense to go to any single location.........................there is no ideal, just multiple opportunities.
Ok, back to the plans for the car itself... I was going to run a T-56, but after Pro Z's warning on the poor shifting characteristics and a salesman buddy of mine letting me take one out and test hammer (err, test drive!) a car with a T-56 in it I've decided to go a different route on the drive train. After some conversation's and emails with Richmond Gear and Gear Vendor's Overdrive, I'm considering using the Richmond 5 speed with the road racing synchro's and other parts along with a Gear Vendor's overdrive unit bolted on the back of it where the tailshaft housing usually goes. Talking with guys who run or have run on the salt I know it's slippery, so it would seem that some very close ratio's in the transmission along with a very close eye on the tachometer one should be able to get through the gears smoothly and keep the engine in a torque range that will accelerate smoothly without a lot of "peakiness" in the torque curve. So, with the Gear Vendors unit adding an in-between gear to each of the 5 gears the Richmond has I think I've come up with some satisfactory ratio's... For clarity, I'll show the gear ratio in the tranny, then what the gear ratio becomes when you hit the button and go to overdrive;
1st- 2.89:1
od- 2.26:1
2nd-1.85:1
od- 1.45:1
3rd-1.31:1
od- 1.03:1
4th- 1.00:1
od- .81:1
5th- .77:1
I can't imagine where you would use every gear while upshifting, but some practice with which gear or overdrive version of it to use would give some very smooth and constant acceleration!!! This set up I believe would also allow for a lot of choices in rear end ratio based on what kind of driving you're planning on doing!! Heck, if 5 gears are fun then 9 has to be almost twice as much fun, right??????
PS---Just for grins, some Saturday night around town I'd have to dig out my old set of 6.00:1 on a spool gears and see just how many times I can shift getting across the intersection!!!!!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL:
your starting to make this complicated----------
what was that trans they used in vetts that was somehing plus one?????????it would work nice in this situation without all the hassel of doing gear venderds od-----------why don't you do direct drive like the sprinters??? they push you up to speed at Bville anyway----
And make sure you remove any outside rearview mirrors!!!!!!!!!!!! had a customer running a pure stock type class a few years ago bitching about top speed being a few mph under what some others were running---when I looked at his car he had a pair of big fender mount mirrors to watch the other cars so he could lift or run it deeper????????
I like the Gear Vendors for the versatility. If I were building the '57 as a purpose built, B-Ville only car I'd go a different route entirely on the drivetrain. With the different venues running the one mile course now it sounds like another fun place to go play, or maybe work in a tune up for Bonneville.....
The Vette transmission was a 4+3 Doug Nash unit.. not a bad unit either!
Sure!! Heartland Park would be a great locale!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
I thinks so too!!! I would wonder if maybe they might have some sort of provisions to accommodate club get togethers??? Some tracks do! Would you possibly know of anyone out that way to contact, Roger???Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
I don't know anyone today, but that's not to say I can't find out! It's only about an hour west of me, and from their website it appears that they make the track(s) available during off times. Let me do some checking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Somehow I missed several of the earlier posts. To eliminate confusion, I'm in Gardner, KS not Goodland. Gardner is on I35 on the SW edge of the metro KC area while Goodland is waaaay out west nearly in Colorado. I'd like to do Bonneville some day, too, but it probably needs to be with an experienced team. Of course, after Worlds Fastest Indian..... I'm also going to make the SEMA show one day, once I find the right contact.
Let me do some checking on Heartland Park, probably early next week.
Sure would be kewl if they had some special deals for clubs! Thanks in advance for taking time to check it out, Roger!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
I know, I know, I fixed it, must have been a senior moment.:eek::3dSMILE:
Aw c'mon Ken! ;) I knew I should have quoted your post as evidence!! :rolleyes: Now mine makes no sense! :LOL: Goodland?? Who said anything about Goodland?:LOL::cool:**)Quote:
Originally Posted by NTFDAY
Think I bought fuel there once on the way to a Divisional event at Bandimere!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Dave-I would think by the time you bolt everything together,you would have spent the same amount of money as buying a ST1200 Lenco. The Gear Vendor stuff is $$$ expensive.I did look in that direction for my RV and decided by the time I got back the gas I saved,I would have sold the RV long before that.
LENCO ST1200 Street/Strip transmission
Here is a interesting post on Yellow Bullet compering both the Liberty and Lenco. Seems the nice point about the Lenco is you can adjust the shift pressures so you if you have a slippery track,you can soften it up some.
Lenco ST1200 vs Liberty Transmissions - Yellow Bullet Forums
Well that and a number of gear ratio's you have to choose from:
http://www.lencoracing.com/HowaLENCO...IOSmaster.html
If all I wanted was 5 gears to go drag racing with, I'd just put my trusty old Doug Nash in and be done with it........Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gary
Dave-all I am saying is just read the links,give it a chance,then think it over.
I've thought all of this over for quite some time.... A Lenco is worthless on the street, a Liberty is fine if that's what you want.. It doesn't suit my purpose. What I want is a transmission with road race quality gearing and synchro's, 5 forward gears, and easily adaptable to the Gear Vendors overdrive unit.... Liberty makes an excellent 4 speed for road racing, and 4 and 5 speeds for drag racing but it's not what I want. The Richmond still has gears that don't howl so much they drive you out of the car, and strong enough for the horsepower I'll be running....
You've totally missed the point of the overdrive unit.....with the push of a button I can add 22% overdrive to any of the first four forward gears... Very nice versatility when coming out of a corner when it's a bit too slow for the next gear while at the same time a bit too high for the current gear.....
This will be a multi-use car, single purpose built parts won't work.....
I really see Dave's point on this one. I've had some experience with the GV units, and they really add versatility to the transmission they are attached to, along with being a very reliable unit.
As far as the cost, it’s all a matter of perspective I guess. Dave is building an over the top car to be able to do a lot of different things well. The GV cuts down the compromises that a lot of us build into a drive train based on using single purpose parts.
Thanks Mike! I've never been one to buy something because of the price if it's not going to perform the way I want it to perform! What is it Uncle Bob used to say about the thrill of a good deal being forgotten long after the quality or usefulness of a product is poor???? Having been around the GV units, I'm sure you'll appreciate just how useful that switch to a ratio half a gear higher can be!!!!! Keeping an engine in it's ideal RPM range is nice, too, along with just plain old torque multiplication that all these different ratio's can do!!!!!
The big thing to remember about planetary gear o-d are that it freewheels on decel and that might not be what you want in a road racing enviroment------not only does it freewheel in those od gears, but that F's up your braking effort as in order to get enough rear brakes for in od, you will have lock up tendancy of the rears when in any hard gear----------
Sooooooooooooo------------------not only do u have to remember the order of gears going up and down, you have to remember the braking scenario---------and most time gains on a road course are from the braking/turn in areas of the curves, not the exits to the straights
Dave I totally agree on buying what you need. I bought the Howards crank when everyone told me it was way more than what the end use was going to be for. But it was the comfort zone that I wanted.
Very true, Jerry. Corner entry has to be done in a straight gear and not overdrive. We played with one of these many years back on a road course, you only enter a corner once in OD and it goes right to the top of your "things not to do" list!!! So, corner entry speeds and braking become the same as any non-od car... From just prior to the apex and out, the closer split on the ratio with the od gear being selected, ie 3rd to 3rd od accelerates the car quicker. Getting out of the turn harder will get you to the next turn sooner!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Same thing in a drag car with a glide and a Gear Vendors. Set one up for a friend a number of years back, instantly took time off his 60', was able to get deeper in the rear gears and therefore a harder launch and with the od on drive still maintained the same rpm on the top end....
Hello Ken Thrum----are you going to NHRA reunion at Bakersfield next month???????????
Dave, a buddy of mine special ordered a 199 Suburban with a stick shift and then put the gear vendors unit behind it. It was one slick piece and he loved it; used it to haul a big camper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by falconvan
Everybody that has one or had one love's them, that's for sure!!!! I was going to put one on my toter, then I sold it. When I get another one the GV will be the first option I get for it!
:eek:I think I'd have to run a parallel circuit on that OD pushbutton to light an indicator lamp in a prominent place on my dash when that Gearvendors unit was engaged!;) I can just see myself exiting a corner tangent to the apex, with an "Oh yeah, I was in OD coming in...." :HMMM::HMMM:;):LOL::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Dave, I know you've thought this thing through with some one-on-one bench racing sessions on the side and the decision is pretty much made at this point. I want to thank you for educating me on the Gearvendors unit. I had overlooked articles on them, like the one from David Freiburger singing their praises in Hot Rod (on Gearvendors web site). I'm thinking that I could have a blast with one of those and a traditional 4-speed in a cruising machine. I dearly love running the gears, and the unit's strong! I'll look forward to more insights into the powertrain you're building! Thanks!!;)
Do think the question of how much power does a GV take to run. It came to light in on one of the links I researched for you when guys where saying a Lenco does take more power but the advantages out wt the loss. Got me wonder about the GV units.:HMMM:
Already addressed it Roger, thinking it will be a light mounted off the base of the shift light....always seem to be looking at it when things are getting serious..... I was involved with a couple cars running these behind powerglides, and was amazed at the improvement in 60' times!!! If they do that much for a 2 speed, why not run them with a five speed???? I know the shift time on the od is faster then I can pull the handle for a regular gear change, too. Also, I was doing some suspension tuning on a customer's "open track" type Mustang many years back, he had one behind a Liberty modified T-10 4 speed, that shift to od out of a corner would keep the engine in it's peak torque and accelerate the car harder, I would imagine most of that is from the decreased loss of rpm between gear changes when going from a trans gear to the 22% increase in ratio of the od gear....Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Dave,I brought up the GV idea on here afew yrs ago and everyone shot it down as being not cost effect for my RV. Well really here and on a RV forum I am apart of.
We have had numerous Super Gas cars that had glides with a brake running in the range of 1.27 to 1.25 60' times. I can see a glide in a car with a GV unit that is a street strip car. But I have my doubts about one behind a 700 hp engine with a brake. Those are very hard hits and I don't think a GV would work without braking.
Seeing as how I'm not building a Super Gas car with a glide and a brake I guess I don't really care what would work or not..... The Super classes have become nothing more then who can dial in the delay box and throttle stop the best.....doesn't interest me anymore.....
Maybe you could move your concerns to a Super Gas thread in the drag race forum????? I don't see any relevance to what I'm building and what this thread is about..............
I kinda feel the same way---those classes use powerglides with just 2 speeds for consistancy, not performance--its revolved to where they are using 10000hp 600 inch motors to run the speed you could do with a 265-----------its not racing, more like shooting craps with loaded dice!!!!!!!!!!
Brought it up because you spoke about it effect 60' times. Well,that and your expectation of what kind of output your car is going top have and if the GV would handle that. Still got me wondering how much loss of power the GV is going to end up with. Anytime you add to the drivetrain,I think it is reasonable to think it is at a loss of power. Just bench racing here................
Well, it looks like Gear Vendors doesn't share your concern, less then 1hp per 400hp loss, and they come with a guarantee....
Quote from their site;
The GEAR VENDORS uses a common vertex (cone) Raybestos clutch system. This means there is no parasitic loss through dragging and unapplied clutch pack. For this reason the GEAR VENDORS is the most efficient transmission on the market using less than 1 horsepower per 400. Imagine - we race the Dakar, Quatar, Tunisian, 24hrs of France, and Master rallies (over 6,000 miles each race) with just 24 ounces of fluid in the unit and no cooler. And, we have won the Quatar, Tunisian and the Master. You cannot do that if you are converting hp to heat.
The GEAR VENDORS planetary carrier and power flow are ideal for motorsports. The planet carrier is all steel and carries a double row of narrow caged needles in each gear instead of a single wide set. It is the most sophisticated planetary we know of. The 18 element roller clutch and drop forged annulus can launch the current world record holder in Super Eliminator with 1850hp as well as the current record holder of HotRod Drag Week (these are 7 sec passes in a 3800lb car. Most racing products are no where near the level of engineering found in the Gear Vendors simply because of their low production volumes. Gear Vendors sells thousands of expensive overdrives to muscle cars, street rods, trucks, towing trailers, and Rv's every year for (27 years). It is this production volume that drives the engineering and that would be hard to justify if your product was only sold in small quantities. For this reason the UNDER/OVERDRIVE™ is a real bargain for racers in performance, and engineering per dollar.
Unquote.
That seems to sum it up quite well......
Thanks for passing along the info Dave.
Got the cowl induction scoop roughed in for the '57. Used the original piece I cut out of the hood, then built the sides out of 20 ga. Just shot some epoxy primer on it so I can start smoothing things out on the hood now...
Well, well, well!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Thank-you very much!
I had no idea that a unit like this was anywhere in existence...it seems it can be used all-the-same as a two-speed diff...is that assumption correct?
And from previous posts it appears to be a very robust unit; will handle virtually anything that's thrown at it.
Some of the horse-power/tourque figures quoted as being put through it are amazing!
I think I'm going to have to do a google and find out more...sounds like it will be just the bee's-knees to think about for the bus...which will finish up weighing about 3.5 or maybe 4 tons.
And considering our undulating terrain here in New Zealand; the more gears ya got the more better...
(Oh, by the way; I'm enjoying your thread...thanks! :D)
.
Johnboy..They are available here in NZ..Ian Rainbow,in Auckland..Key West,sells them..You might have to sell ya missus so you can get the bucks together,though..dont think they are very cheap..:eek::eek:
Interesting hood mods. How close will the back come to the glass? (if you don't mind me asking? 8-) )..
About 2" away from the windshield, hood will be hinged in the frontQuote:
Originally Posted by 34_40
I figured you'd have to hing in front there isn't much if any room to open it up from rear with scoop Looking good and different at same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson