Thanks for that Roger, it's something that (somehow,) I've always known about; but have never had it explained so succinctly and clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
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Thanks for that Roger, it's something that (somehow,) I've always known about; but have never had it explained so succinctly and clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
This afternoon I finally got comfortable with the location for the radiator supports, so I got them clamped in place and welded them. The two were within about 0.004 of equal measurement side to side, which I think is OK. They were dropped about 1" lower than before, and if a replacement radiator creates hassles later it can always be shimmed higher.
Attachment 62470
If you look back at the earlier post there's a pretty significant difference between the cross member and the bottom of tank.
Attachment 62473
Overall fit looks pretty good! I'll still do a bit of selective bending on the hood top, but it's pretty good, and a world of difference from before.
Attachment 62471
Attachment 62472
Belt line alignment is much, much better than it was before adjustments.
Attachment 62469
Tomorrow I'll cut out a tab & fillet brace for the rear hood latch, drill & tap the front one, and see if I can get this beast restrained.
Hey that looks real nice now.. good to see you're making progress too.
Looks like ya got it now Roger.
Gonna work on a pair of "tabs" for the back hood latches in a bit. It's 40F here this morning, which is great weather but that first drop of the season sure feels chilly!
I was planning to try to get my mid-point support for the steering shaft located, but a UPS sorting blunder got me. It left Ohio, arrived 10/1 for sorting and loading on the truck for local delivery, and on 10/2 arrived in Florida! Oops, a sorting error mis-directed your package and will cost at least one business day, so sorry. New delivery date, 10/8:(:mad::(:LOL::LOL: Whatta' ya' gonna do? It is what it is, and Summit told me originally that the double is not stocked, but gets drop shipped by the OEM, and might not arrive until 10/8! They were right!!
Side note, I sure am glad that the PO decided to prime and finish paint this chassis before he had any of the build details thought through :rolleyes: On a good note, I don't have to worry with surface rust, but it'll be getting re-sprayed one of these days.... Moved the tranny mount, moved radiator supports down, tabs for hood latches, spacers for spreader bar fit, steering mid-support, exhaust hangers, and on, and on, and on. Kinda reinforces the "Plan the Work, Work the Plan" mantra, with a focus on "Plan the Work" ;) Oh well, if it was all easy Grandma would have been driving a hot rod, right?
Florida, Kansas----Heck, they're close to each other and a lot alike, easy mistake to make!!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Made it to 37 overnight here Roger, I think that dang season that starts with a "W" is on it's way!!!!!
That stretched frame Deuce that Mike had the picture of got me thinking, (I know, that's scary) sure would be unique with like a Ford V-10 in there!!!!!!!;);)
OOOOOOOOooooooo...... a V-10 hot rod! Now you're talking! :LOL::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Seems to me that we saw a red Viper for sale at a little museum, and you told the guy you'd like to have it, but only for the drive train.... ;):LOL: I think he may have been a bit offended....;):rolleyes::LOL::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by 34_40
And guys, I don't need any more help with changes that will stretch this project out farther. With you guys help I'll be advertising a ZZ4 crate & 700R4 and shopping for a Coyote Crate & a C6 equivalent!:eek::eek::LOL::LOL::LOL:
Hey Roger, don't blame me!!!!! Mike started it, all his fault!!!!!!!;);):LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
See! it isn't a new idea.. yeah, I caught that lil' fellas expression too..:LOL: He thought that red Viper was the pinnacle of their collection and here I am saying scrap it except for the motor! :eek::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Well..isn't it YOU :eek: who prefers a Ford in a Ford? :HMMM::HMMM: And wasn't it YOU :eek: who "preaches" :eek: to those that ask which direction they should go in that they should stay brand specific? :eek::LOL::eek::LOL::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
But, it is your build! :LOL: Do it as you see fit right!:rolleyes::LOL::eek:
(You gotta know that I'm roaring out loud right now right?)
See Roger, that Mike dude is really an agitator, isn't he?????:LOL::LOL::LOL:
Just think of that V-10 with a set of Kinsler cross flow injector stacks and ..................:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
Or heck if it's easier maybe put a Hemi in the Ford! :)
Decided to shape the tabs to match the bottom of the latch unit.
Attachment 62556
Attachment 62557
And decided to add a little gusset to counter any lifting force on the tab.
Attachment 62555
Got them positioned to align with the hood catches,
Attachment 62554
And welded them in place...
Attachment 62553
Welded the tab, and smoothed the top weld for appearance...
Attachment 62559
Positioned the front latch, drilled & tapped 1/4 - 20 for button heads...
Attachment 62560
Attachment 62561
Yes, the bolts will be shortened....:LOL::LOL:
Attachment 62558
Maybe I'm just anal about things not staying put, but have you considered putting Nylock nuts on the screws and then cutting them to length?
Still in the fabrication stage, Ken. The tabs are threaded 1/4-20, but putting a nylock nut on the bottom might be good insurance. Cannot do that up front, as the bolts protrude into the frame space, too far back to reach....Quote:
Originally Posted by NTFDAY
Good progress again Roger. You're making it look easy.. LOL..
A bit o' LocTite, maybe?
Nice fabricated tabs Roger. They came out very nicely. Maybe some round headed nuts on bottom with a squirt of permatex on the thread?
http://www.anzor.co.nz/exonet/image/Anzor%20Nuts.jpg
Or one of these clever little nuts
http://www.tracepartsonline.net/Part...13-101167L.gif
I sure do like using Riv Nuts on cars, Marson makes a real nice kit that isn't too expensive!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by stovens
Quote:
Originally Posted by stovens
Just to be clear, the tabs are 3/16" steel plate, threaded 1/4-20, so I think that a lock washer or star washer under the button heads will likely hold just fine, but a dab of blue lock tite would be good insurance. Frame rail is also tapped 1/4-20, and even though it's nominal 1/8" I think it'll hold those hood latches just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Very much nicer line and brackets are super.
Roger I definately agree, I was just thinking those threaded inserts(Riv nuts come in all sizes and would give you a cleaner profile look on the bracket. I'm sure whatever you do it will function well and look nice.
General rule of thumb----one and half times fastener diameter for depth of threads--------1/4 bolt should have 3/8 inch of threads------a round headed nut on the bottom would be a nice detailing touche'--- for the front ones going just into the frame material, riv-nuts or a welded in plug---------
That's a very conservative rule of thumb. Consider that the 1/4-20 nuts measure 0.22" tall, they provide 4.4 threads at 20/inch. Your rule of thumb would make a NC nut for a 1/4" bolt 3/8" tall with 7.5 threads, and a nut for a 1/2" bolt 3/4" tall, and they're actually more like 0.43 with 5.6 threads. I learned that materials play a big part in the minimum thread count. My frame rail measures 0.15", so I've got three full threads on a static, non rotational piece with no significant vibration concerns. Like I said, I'm confident that three threads will hold just fine with a lock washer, and maybe a dab of lock tite for insurance. If the latch falls off then my hood will flap in the wind a bit, and you can say "I told you so."Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
I agree with you Roger about the threads holding those front clips in place and I personally would only have the stainless dome head nuts on the rear ones for a finished look only. Those bonnet clips are spring loaded and are only to stop the bonnet sides flapping in the breeze with the complete bonnet is attached properly to the car so shouldn't be a hell of lot stress on them. Looking good too with a fully covered engine bay.
Whew... and this is all for mock-up!:LOL::LOL::LOL:
check post #13 for general stuff
Thread depth recommendations, online??
What a JOKE!! Just say you're wrong, and move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Good lord! We had a similar discussion a long time back and had folks adamant that it was unsafe to pick up an engine with a carburetor plate, 1/4" bolts and a cast aluminum intake. We need to be safe and practical, but we ain't building the space shuttle here.
100% Jack. What's the tensile strength of a 1/4" steel bolt, and what is the dynamic load on a hood restraint? I'd venture a guess that if we were designing for tensile strength I could be putting 4-40's in this service!! A 1/4-20 fills the f'n hole in the latch bracket, and that's the only reason for the choice of fastener size. Good Lord is right!!
So, I'm confused? Why does the bolt threads need to stick past the nut any at all?
They don't . . .
According to Jerry's rule of thumb all of the nuts sold are too short by about 50% or more. A 1/4-20 nut is not sufficient to use with a 1/4" bolt, and the same for all the other bolt sizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by 36 sedan
I thought it was the grading (ie., 5, 8 and so on) that determined the strength? I never gave it a thought that the nuts where engineered incorrectly, is this a common problem?
Perhaps someone has confused thread depth requirements (as in blocks and different materials) and applied it to the nuts?
Roger-I believe that you have read something into my posts that either you either misread or I wrote poorly----when I wrote rule of thumb that that there should be 1 1/2 times bolt diameter for depth of hole it applies to where you have the plate threaded-you said 3/16 plate, 1/4 in bolt------the thumb rule for a thread hole for your 1/4 bolt would be 3/8 inch--in mild steel plate that would really be overkill, however with your 3/16 plate it is questionable. and in the top of your frame which you posted as 1/8 (edited later) you are way below specs---not that your work on this is unacceptable(as it is a hood latch) but you are way off base on what should be used as a standard in some more critical areas. I couldn't find my Machinists Handbook but did find reference online and posted it--the info there does support the fact that with the bolt/nut ratings out there that the thickness of the SAE nuts are suffient for the diameter of the bolts they fit.
And I believe that no matter what you choose to do on your car with stuff you fab from scratch, it is the responsibility of others to post when the methods you or others choose ar inadequate for the public safety of others on our highways. I know that we have views of many things that don't alighn with the planets of internet universe, but I humbly believe that as a member on here with a long road that I've been down, I should pass on any info I have that can help others-------------- With that said I am going to check the ignore button on your threads, as it seems that somewhere we have come to an quagmire that you can't/won't accept any thing I say----------
Jerry, no disrespect intended, but every rule has its exception.
Not all fastening applications require the maximum strength of the bolt to achieve their purpose. Often the frames of our cars are tapped and used to secure things that require very little strength, often the bolt size is increased not for the strength of the bolt, but rather for the increased size allowing greater thread contact through the thin material which serves the purpose of the original fastening intent.
Case in point would be the hood latches, these latches require far less tensile strength than the 1/4” bolt delivers in the 3/16” plate or for that mater even 1/8” plate, especially with two bolts used on each. If there is a concern for their strength, a backing nut would serve the purpose.
I agree with you and commend you on safety and speaking up to protect others. However, sometimes it is better to nudge rather than trump to get a point across. You undoubtedly have a wealth of knowledge and ability and I enjoy learning from you. So please continue to bring your insights. All I’m saying is there is more than one way to skin the catfish.
Jerry, you may not read this, but as 36sedan says your rule of thumb may be right for tapped holes in plate or blind holes, but you're overlooking that the first step in that process is that the bolt is sized or selected for the tensile strength needed to withstand breaking. Step one, what size bolt is required; step two, calculate the depth of thread that's needed to restrain the bolt such that the bolt shears at or above the first exposed thread. That second calc deals with tensile stress area of the threads, the bolt major diameter, and the thread pitch.
In this application I picked 1/4" stainless bolts to fit the hole in the latch bracket, but more for appearance. There are two per latch, and that is very definitely over kill on strength for the application. Rather than consider the application and number of bolts per latch you simply jumped in criticizing the approach, preaching that what I had done is wrong. I agree that a couple of SS acorn nuts on the bottom of the back latch bolts is a nice finishing touch to cover the exposed threads, but I do not believe that nuts are needed on either place, for this application.
When you choose to pass on your wisdom it's probably best to focus on the specific task being discussed, or if a "general rule of thumb" is what you choose then explain the basis for that rule, and that it may or may not apply in this case. Just my humble opinion, and you can take it or leave it.
I think you really need 1/2 hardware on it... that 1/4 stuff is weak... LMFAO Bwahahahahaha.
