Correct me if I'm wrong fella's, but I don't think a 1st gen sbc has a cam button and if so where is it located?
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Correct me if I'm wrong fella's, but I don't think a 1st gen sbc has a cam button and if so where is it located?
Correct Ken and Rodger the first gen SB didn't use a cam button and my comment above won't apply to Dons motor (sorry Don). I thought Don might be running one of the later generation engines (it was probably a second Gen my friend was working on based on how long ago we talked about it).
I also thought about the possibility that the roll pin holding the distributor gear to the shaft might have sheared but the gear still being tight enough on the shaft to only gradually creep back causing the timing to gradually change (I've run into that a couple of times). The only problem with that is the timing change that occurs is for it to retard the timing not advance it.
So basically guys, I got nothin but will be interested in seeing what Don does find.
.
Then it's very possible that Don has one the chinesium msd dizzy's and good possibility the same is true for the bad flexplates.
Baring something wrong inside the distributor (as posted earlier), there is only one other thing I can think of that may be causing your distributor to creep; occasionally the distributor's shaft bottoms out in the oil pump not allowing the distributor's base to fully seat requiring shims to slightly raise the distributor.
NTFDAY I need to chat with a builder of Gen1 SBC. Maybe they did not have a cam button but maybe that is why the later 350s did have one. Maybe there is a retrofit? The engine came from a 1976 Corvette as proved by the engine number.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
36Sedan, Thanks for that suggestion. It is a lot easier to shim the distributor than to pull off the electric water pump. I will check this first.
Don Shillady
RetiredScientist/teen rodder
Don, your engine and mine are twins, so to speak, and neither require cam buttons. If you pull the distributor check both side to side and up and down movement. Too much up and down movement can be lessened by installing a shim or two. If you find, IMHO, over 1/8" side to side movement I'd be looking at a new distributor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
Hopefully Jerry Clayton or anyone else with considerable time building engines will chime in and offer other suggestions as I'm not an engine builder per se.
I believe that in the past you've been given some bad advice which has negatively effected your wallet.
I'm sorry, I'm talking about a base shim, not internal. Base shims raise the distributor at it's base to add clearance at the oil pump.Quote:
Originally Posted by NTFDAY
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Moros...yABEgKf1_D_BwE
Quote:
Originally Posted by 36 sedan
I know what you're talking about, not the same as what I was referring to. What I was referring to requires pulling the gear off, driving out the roll pin, and installing a shim or two. That will lessen the amount of movement of the rotor in reference to the cap.
Please don't miss understand, I'm not trying to challenge or argue with any one, simply trying to clarify so as to not confuse OP.
IMHO, while to much play in the distributor may cause irratic time (jumping up & down), only a few things can cause the timing to creep (advance). One would be something inside sticking and not returning completely as I mentioned earlier (advance plate sticking), or possibly something external influencing the distributor base. And why I mentioned base shims, if the distributors shaft does not engage the oil pump correctly (slightly too long, it happens, why they make shims), as the motor heats up it could move the distributor slightly. Of course eventually if not corrected it will damage the gears. Just saying it's worth a check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 36 sedan
I totally agree with you .
I believe these are the shims I'm talking about
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Moroso-2614...5Zz633&vxp=mtr
and these are the the shims you are talking about
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Moroso-2615...!US!-1&vxp=mtr
Hello All,
My main computer really freaked out but I am back on the Internet with an old spare laptop using Windows7. Meanwhile I went a short distance up the street to see Chester Houghtaling at Progressive Auto (engine builder with his own dyno) and he confirmed the Gen 1 did not have a cam button and flat tappet cams have tapered faces to rotate the lifters and this only retards timing if the cam walks a bit. Roller cams need a cam button because the faces are flat on a roller cam. Overall the car starts easily now but for how long? Soooo I also tracked down the Big End to China and even though the electronics of alternate Pertronix dizzies are made in the USA the mechanical part of those is also made in China. Now I think the advance mechanism sticks on a high angle while running but when I start the engine the advance is way too high. Maybe a slightly stronger spring might pull the advance back to 10 degrees but I have not been able to find the right set of springs for this distributor. I guess I am looking for a Pertronix D100700? but that will take a week or two. Maybe I could "debur" the distributor I have now?
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Don. Why not do a "test"? Back out some number of degrees initial timing.. 4,5,6? Whatever.
Then do a few test starts / running cycles. See if it has ANY impact. You may be chasing a unrelated gremlin.
If you own a timing light and the appropriate wrench, it won't cost you a dime!
You could run something like this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-Small-C...RZh1HE&vxp=mtr
If it were mine I'd probably find a good used early points dizzy and put a Petronix module in matched with one of their coils.
34-40 and others,
I have other things going on but my first option is to gently add a drop or two of Marvel Mystery oil on the edge of the centrifigul weights. I went through TWO sets of Pertronix kits in a 327 distributor and I would like an inexpensive fix of what I have. As NFTDAY implied I have pretty well used up my budget for a "spring tune up" until I start my summer job in June so I will try a few drops of Marvel's oil in some strategic places to reach the undersides of the weights. My main computer is now working again.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
Sounds like a plan to me. Good Luck Don.
Don, just pulling the centrifugal weights off and polishing the pin holes and faces where they work against the rotor shaft plate, and polishing the plate where they contact, and polishing the holes where the springs attach, and a bit of white grease very lightly applied and mostly wiped off really helps smooth things up. Keep it all relatively clean and lightly greased, and it's worry free.
.
I agree with lubing the weights---however, the issue comes from the upper part of the rotor mount advance system is mounted over the lower shaft that goes down to the drive gear-You need to remove the dist, remove the lower gear and disassemble the shaft out of the housing and then take the advance portion off that shaft----------polish clean and lube soas the pieces work freely--------Its a common problem with all the GM type dist and since we no longer change points and lube the parts every 6 months?????????? they seize up and cause erratic advance and retard movements-----------
Thanks Jerry and others. It turned out that the distributor hold down needed to be extra tight and before after it was set it would wander. This was finally fixed and retimed last spring with special attention to the hold down bolt and it has started fine with the fourth (expensive) starter all summer.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Hello,
Just sitting around with the roadster in the garage for winter weather. The last good run was a fun ride of about 50 miles in November with a niece who is one of the most lively family members. After that short trip I sent her a Christmas present of a 1929 roadster T-shirt from Bratton's Antique Auto Parts. She was delighted with the shirt and I already have about six of them for both Coupe and Roadster '29 Fords. For the last two years I have been pleased with the Jones high speed crank pulley to max out my small alternator. However on the 50 mile trip my niece wanted to hear a Jim Croce disk on my four speaker "quadraphonic" system. The sound system performed well with good volume over the trip but just on the last few miles we had some slight rain and the electric windshield wiper struggled greatly due to insufficient current competing with the sound system. Actually that was the first time I used the sound system for more than a short test. At present I am considering a switch to disable the two speakers in the mostly closed rumble/trunk. That may make it possible to play the sound system with the wiper on? The main reason i am writing now is because I am doing some winter dreaming of a cam change and using Rhoads lifters. Last fall I matched up with a stripped '28 roadster and he easily walked away from me at a light using a dual quad intake and obviously a better cam. My R400 low gear is good for 50 yards or so but after the first (auto) shift a higher lift cam definitley has an advantage. Sooo, lets hear some suggestions for the best cam with Rhoads lifters in my 355 SBC with 9:1 CR, ported 882 heads and Edelbrock Performer-RPM with a single 600 cfm quad carb. Tube headers are the shorty type for hood fit and a H-pipe exhaust with twin turbo mufflers. I like the Comp Cams dyno chart for the 274 cam but am wary of cam break-in problems with Comp Cams unless one pays another hundred $ for nitriding now available. An easier alternative is to just switch to 1.6 roller rockers without a cam change for such little improvement that it might not make much difference with my present small cam which is basically a copy of the 1977 camaro stick. Considering I may not teach this summer I may not have any fun money to make a cam change but I already have the 1.6 rockers so that may be what I will do to make a slight improvement. Some tests show that just adding 1.6 rockers on the exhaust valve add some power but in the past folks on this Forum have said the rocker ratio does not make much difference?
Best Wihes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist Teen Rodder
Hi Ya Don. good to see you posting and other than the wipers /radio combo potentially clashing against your pulleys and alternator, now you want to go racing!?!?!:LOL::LOL: Lost a red light dash and now you want a bigger cam. I've got such a big smile on my face right now thank you very much!! :3dSMILE::LOL::3dSMILE: Can I ask why Rhoads? Is there something special you like about the company? I have never dealt with them so I have no opinion either way. Just curious as to why you name them specifically?Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
My 2 thoughts on your selection is first - I'd make it a roller selection only. And I'd contact the vendor of choice and tell their tech folks what I have for tire size, rear axle ratio, torque converter (if known) and then ask then to recommend a selection for you to review. Also, give TechInspector 1 some time to review and ask the same questions and see what he likes. Many guys appreciate his review and approach to cam selection. Do you know what the final drive ratio is now? You might be better served in changes to the rear axle than a cam.?.?
Maybe sometime we hookup at the stop light?!?!?! :D
JMHO, but this may be incorrect wire sizing to load ratio causing your troubles...Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
Don, I typed for 45 minutes, clicked send and nothing was there. Too late to do it again. Use Howards MC110931-11DL kit. It has a 5-year no fault guarantee. Next time you line up against the other guy, strap on a 750 carb, even if you have to borrow one. :eek:
.
Thanks Denny,
I still appreciate the first one since it predated the Tesla excitement over Lithium. Your/my avatar does show just 3 electrons which means it is probably Lithium whether you designed that or just settled on 3 electrons to fit in the space. I did buy some lithium mining stock but apparently not the right one. I did also work on the electronic structure of Boron Hydride shown on the cover of my textbook "Essentials of Physical Chemistry" as well as Lithium Hydride so I still like the first avatar. Denny, if you are good with graphics I do need help on graphing electronic orbitals as calculatd from my program PCLOBE. A programmer in Belgium has parsed the output from PCLOBE but he then sends it to a program in the "R" language which works but is extremely SLOW. I can send you his parsing program if you can figure out how to us a faster "screen mesh" graphic presentation. Just a long shot idea but maybe you are the one to solve the graphics problem? If you are totally hooked on internal combustion engines we could then draw pictures of the orbitals of ntro-methane and isomers of octane with a screen-mesh program and I can send you the PCLOBE program.
Best Wishes,
Don Shilady
Retired Scentist, Teen Rodder
Techinspector1, Good to hear from you, I always learn a lot from your comments. I will check into the Howard cam kit particularly for the five year warranty Now all I need is a summer job for some extra money. Speed is expensive. Looking back I spent (wasted) a lot of money on several starters and flywheels caused by a single bolt lock down on the distributor timing which wandered into kickback timing rapidly every few months. I was afraid to strip the threads in the aluminum intake! Now I know I need to check the timing every season! I always wondered why my original engine builder refused to put in a Comp Cam but further reading indicates there were many failed Comp cams before they started to nitride treat the lobes but now that is an extra $100 or so on top of the cam cost. On the other hand I remember you told me that 1.6 rockers would't help much but if I don't get a summer job this year the easiest thing to do is to just add 1.6 ratio rockers on the exhaust valves for a slight improvement. That was originally suggested by my engine builder and was tested on the old Dyno tests on "Ryan's Engine and Bible Site" on the Internet as test No.56. Since I just finally finished paying off Christmas gifts and County Home and Land taxes now loom on the near horizon I will just add the 1.6 ratio rockers on the exhaust valves for nowj
Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist, Teen Rodder
Hello "36",
Thanks for your comment, that is certainly worth checking although the wiring is from a ready made kit. If you are correct a switch to turn off the back two speakers should help leaving just the two speakers n the kick panels. Thanks.
Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist, Teen Rodder
Hello "34-40",
I did look for references to Rhoads lifters on this thred and found very little although there are many extensive discussions on the internet. It seems Rhoads lifters are a bit controversial due to the fact that they are noisey at idle and low rpm and some people do not like that (wives?). Basically they are standard hydraulic lifters which are machined to intentionally leak fluid at low rpm, reducing lift and duration for good torque but at higher rpm, say 3500, there is not enough time for leakage and so a long duration, high lift cam can take effect. The timing depends somewhat on oil viscosity and the initial adjustment is different but experienced users like them for low rpm torque while offering higher performance at higher rpm. Some users are quick to note that just changing to Rhoads Lifters will not make a radical cam street worthy and I wonder if the old Isky 280H SBC racing cam could be made docile for the street just by switching to Rhoads lifters, BUT it seems to me that a strong cam like the Comp 274 could produce both low rpm torque and high rpm H.P. It is a shame Techinspector1 typed too long for the Forum limits below because I am sure he can give a scholarly technical critique of Rhoads lifters and I would like to hear what he has to say. I note that Rhoads lifters are now available for both flat tappet and roller cams (Fords and Chevies) so the idea is still out there somewhere for a few believers.
P.S. I should have said in my cam discussion that my rear ratio is 3.55 which was chosen to come close to the low gear ratios in my old '47 Ford with a 2.78 rear and using the low gear of the 700R4 transmission in my roadster. So I chose a design spec of a '47 Ford and that is what I got, never mind LS Camaros on the street today!
Best Wishes,
Don Shillady (two "l")
Retired Scientis,Teen Rodder
Insufficient current competing with the sound system:
I would look at the wiring to the wiper motor, and take voltage readings. If you find a voltage drop and I expect you will, determine where and why the voltage is dropping off. It may be as simple as replacing the wire with heavier guage, or maybe even adding a power relay near the motor.
Hello Denny, Thanks for your reply. send me your e-mail address and I will send you the slow program we have now. The PCLOBE program is available on a CD ready for installation on any WINDOW system from XP, W7,...including W10. There are much larger quantum chemistry programs such as GAUSSIAN, ORCA, HONDO, GAMESS etc. but PCLOBE is a smallified version of my research program before retiring and I reduced the program to run under WINDOWS. All the calculations with such "gaussian spheres" are simple and when I first went to a seminar by Jerry Whtten in 1961 he passed around a 3"x5" card with all the formulas on one card! Today there are much more detailed treatments that use more complicated formulas but I stayed with idea of using hundreds, even thousands of various size spheres to represent atomic and molecular electronic orbitals. At first there is no need for you to worry about the PCLOBE Program because I can run a calculation on nitro-methane and send you the results along with the parsing program by the programmer in Belgium. So send me your e-mail address and we can talk in further detail with the goal of maybe making an avatar of an O2 molecule reacting with a nitro-methane molecule but I prefer screen-mesh graphics.
Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist, Teen Rodder
.
I could of used some of your Nitromethane stuff back in the 1970s when we'd rent adjoining motel rooms at the outta town races and would ice down our nitro to 30* which would give us equal to 108% because it varied 2% per 10*f--------------we had to keep dragster and funnycar tanks covered with a towel so peeps couldn't see the frost formed on polished alum tanks
Hello Jerry,
I have been busy (?) watching TV in the cold months but it sure feels good to hear from you and others on the Forum and there are signs of early Spring-like days here in Virginia to the point of seeing a few convertibles with their top down, but then we alternate with the next freezing rain. Regarding nitro-methane that offers one of the curious features of theoretical calculations for what are called computer experiments "in silico". However I was fortunate to have a wet chemistry lab during my career and I taught an experimental course while my main research was computer calculations. I was repeatedly surprised when I did real experiments and made sure they worked in the lab course so the number of times I/we flirted with poisonous gases and cyanide solutions means I was lucky that I did use normal safety precautions. Thus I really appreciate your comments about the care required to use "nitro" fuel. By the way one of my last messages from you recommended the last year of LS SBC blocks that would accept most of my '76 block equipment but that message was removed somehow. Tell me again what is the last year for a junkyard LS SBC compatible with my 1976 SBC? Keep in touch and let's hear more stories about the use of "nitro". I have always been fascinated by the engine rebuilds between rounds and the risk of an error that might explode the supercharger or drop the crank on the track. You are the person with a vast experience so lets hear more stories!
Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist, Teen Rodder
Hello again Techinspector1,
I am sorry not to get your cam analysis. When I have a long message I submit the first 20 lines and then use the edit command to continue. I looked up the Howard cam kit you mentioned and there is one source for only $148 but I can avoid the radiator and accessory removal on the front of the engine if I just use 1.6 ratio rockers with my present mild Crane Blue Racer A cam and get almost the same lift as the excellent Howard cam you suggest plus slightly more duration with the higher lift, so for now I am going to install the 1.6 ratio rockers but I would appreciate your comments.
Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist, Teen Rodder
Don, no disrespect intended and JMHO, but if you have to switch components off to operate other components, there is a problem with your wiring irregardless of whose or which wiring harness you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
Usually, stereo power amps are wired directly to the battery (through a fuse of course) and switched on/off by your receiver’s remote wire. Often with high powered stereo amps/system a larger alternator and battery capacity are needed. However even with a larger alternator and battery capacities, if the wire between the alternator and battery is not enlarged problems will often persist. An undersized wire can’t carry the current demand, as current increases the wire gets hot and resistance goes up lowering voltage and the battery does not charge. This can lead to melt downs and fires.
Please don’t misunderstand me, not trying to be a bully or anything else, just trying be sure you are safe.
power amps need their own feed right off the batt . there is no wire in a harness that can power a 400 amp power amp .
Thevanins theorem states power in equals power out.
It is not possible to continuous power 400 amp load unless you have 400A Source. I'm thinking it would take dual alternators.
A MAJOR consideration for a high power source is to address the batteries as a load. If the batteries get low, say from a difficult start or running that monster amp with engine off: then you start the car and actually feed it 400A continuous, the battery will explode. Therefore you need a bank of batteries so the combined cells can safely absorb the power.
When you are dealing with that much power the entire system must be robust.
Regarding the speakers i will have to check the wattage but they are not large boomers. I have had that system for about three years but never used it until now so one solution is not to use it much until i can figure it out. I am more interested in discussion of 1.6 ratio rockers. Here is the data on my present Blue Racer A cam:
HYDRAULIC - Smooth idle, good low end torque,
economy and throttle response. Use as stock
replacement.
BASIC RPM 1000-3200
Street CD194-11C 975213
C37-16
99277-16
C817C-16
194
204
256
262 112 .000
.000
.398
.420
The lifters I have are the simple roller type as are the present 1.5 rockers on the engine at present. They are steel so there is no gain due to lighter aluminum rockers but for intake I will get (1.6/1.5)x0.398=0.4245 and for exhaust the 1.6 rockers will produce (1.6/1.5)x0.420=0.448 lift and a small increase in duration. This looks like a worth while change at low cost to me.
Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist, Teen Rodder
400 watt ... sorry .
Oh, 400 watt. Much easier. 33 amp peak, calculated as true power.
most all amps over 400 watt come with their own power lead and maxi fuse .
IF;
Your electrical system can not supply enough current to operate your stereo and wipers correctly at the same time.
IMAGINE;
What it is doing for your ignition system and motor performance.
JUST SAYING;
Besides being safer, fixing your electrical system may also allow your motor to operate better.
Sometimes the simple is overlooked, all done..............