I'm not getting it Brian. Can you do one of your drawings? I have no play in my shift lever, it only goes up and back, no side motion whatsoever.
If I can see a picture I might understand.
Thanks, Don
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I'm not getting it Brian. Can you do one of your drawings? I have no play in my shift lever, it only goes up and back, no side motion whatsoever.
If I can see a picture I might understand.
Thanks, Don
Damn, Don---I was afraid you were going to ask that!!! Ah, well, anything for a friend. Its going to take a while, and right now my wife's got me stripping wallpaper (arghhhh)---I will do a model for you later today.---Brian
And I thought I was the only one on here with a "HONEY DO LIST":LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
Sorry Brain, I'm a little thick. No rush on the drawing, the car isn't going anywhere this weekend.:mad: :mad: :3dSMILE: :3dSMILE:
Don
Do I get to pick what colors you do the graphics in?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Hey Brian, haven't heard any updates on how your friends Chevy coupe is coming (the one you were pretty much building for him) How is it doing?
Okay Don---this is going to get kinda involved. This first model is a ball bushing. It is a 2 peice unit consisting of an outer housing (purple) and an inner bearing (yellow). The gearshift (we are going to show a plate style shift lever for simplicity), has a hole bored thru at the pivot point, and this purple bushing gets pressed into it. The purple outer housing is 1/2" thick, and is a hard press fit into the shifter, which is also 1/2" thick. (Sizes are arbitrary). The yellow ball inside the purple housing is free to rotate. The hole thru the center of the yellow ball is 3/8" diameter. The purple housing is 1 1/8" outer diameter.---Stay tuned----
And this is a shift lever 1/2" thick with a 16" long "throw" from center of pivot to center of ball on top. The ball bushing has been press fitted into the hole in the shift lever. Now if we run a pivot pin thru the hole in the yellow ball, the shift lever can swing frontward and rearward like you would expect, but also side to side, as the yellow ball rotates inside the purple outer housing. This side to side movement is somewhat limited, because the yellow ball can only rotate untill the pivot bolt contacts the side of the purple outer housing.---Are you with me so far???
Yep. Starting to sink in.
Okay, we have two views of the same thing here, I have "exploded" the one view to give a better idea of how it goes together. The bronze coloured round part closest to the shift lever is made of bronze, and has a counterbore in the side facing the shift lever, just large enough to miss the yellow ball when assembled---it rides up against the side of the shift lever. The spring is large enough to fit over the smaller outside diameter of the bronze part. The second bronze coloured part is fitted into the other end of the spring. The dark blue brackets attach to the tranny, and the red pivot pin fits thru everything. When assembled, that spring is compressed enough to keep the shift lever very stable, with no "side to side" rock.---You will notice that the ends of the spring are ground flat, like a valve spring. On the side of the shift lever that does not have the spring, the yellow ball is fitting tight against the side of the blue bracket. Now you see that the shifter can be moved foreward and backward easily on the red pivot pin, and if you push (or pull) it sideways, it will actually "rock" on the yellow ball. I'm tired tonite, so will model the shift gate and locking pin tomorrow---I imagine that now the lights starting to come on---right???
Yep, it makes a lot of sense, and I was actually thinking of something similar early on, but what stopped me was that my shift arm can't be underneath like in the drawing. It has to come out the side on a shaft, like in the picture below. I couldn't quite figure out how to lock the shifter to the shaft, and still have it so I could move it sideways.
Here is what I mean about how the shaft has to come out the side.
Don
Don---thats an easy thing to do. ---I'll add it to the existing model and show you how.
Yeah, I know---but I've been doing this for 41 years now.:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
Yeah, that would work. I'm so deep into the one I've built that I am going to have to give the spring loaded pin a try when it comes. If it doesn't hold like I want, I may have to do some reengineering along the lines you have come up with.
Thanks for all the trouble you went to drafting this up. I'll bet a few rodders on here will be able to benefit from it.
Hey, so how is that Chevy coupe coming you guys were building?
Don
Hey Don,
Since the pictures of my shifter were part of the inspiration for yours, maybe you would like to take a better look. My shifter does basically what Brian is showing you, but is built a little differently. It moves back and forth, but also sideways and is spring-loaded so that it can fall into slots or cogs that hold it in gear. The pics in the gallery are too small to see much detail, but if you will e-mail me I will send them to you full-size so you can see them. They're too big to post here...
Sure. i'll send you my email address, but my stupid service seems to reject every other email to keep spam out. Send it, and I will then be able to tell my service it is ok to let you in.
Thanks for the offer.
Don
Quote:
Originally Posted by cffisher
I was cleaning out some old pix in my computer tonight, and found this front shot of my Kids '29. It is essentially the same now, but just without a top.
Don
you could slot the shifter stalk the stalk would have a slip fit on a smalller tube the stalk would not be welded to the lever for the P R N . by a detents it would be spring loaded and push up in the detents by the load of the spring the stalk would have two slots vertical on he stalk this part would be pin to a smaller tube and pined so with out the spring pushing up there would be up and down this would be limted buy the length of the slots they would be mill in to the bottom part of the stalk and a pin on the side of the shifter or a striper bolt that would hit in the detents and all you would push down on the shifter pull it out of the detents . i have one more way i think that would work good but i think this would work great .the slip fit on the tube and the stalk would have to be good and would be in the shifter stalk the length would be longer than the slots the longer it is the less chance of back and forth slop you would want the pins to work the slots not right at the base this would help on the leverage point angle would work up against the smalller tub and not work the pins as hard. this could be whip rigth out if you have a mill and a lath or know some one that can do the small machine job for you
This is the last of it. The triangular shaped purple plate is the lock-out gate---it is 1/8" thick, and it is welded to the dark blue transmission bracket.---it does not move. The yellow pin in the absolute bottom of the shift lever is a hard press fit into the hole in the shifter lever, and extends out 1/8" on the side of the shift lever that is closest to teh lockout plate. It fits into the holes and/or slots in the lockout plate. This will only let the shift lever move if it is "tweaked" sideways, which rocks the lever to one side on the pivot ball and causes the yellow pin to disengage from the slot or hole in the lockplate.-----Of course, you have to do a lot of lay-out and trial and error fitting to ensure that the holes and slots in the lock-out plate correspond perfectly with the correct position of the lever going into the side of the transmission when it is in one of its "snapped into gear" positions.
I am not going to model the Lokar unit, as it does take a fair bit of time, and anyone who studies this type of lockout will see the point I have been trying to make. Aftermarket gearshifts are not cheap, but the lockout mechanism and the built in starter safety switch does, in my opinion make them worth the money that you spend on them.----I would be the last person to discourage "build it at home" innovation, but it reaches a point of diminishing returns. You can build a gearshift at home, but you will roll up a Hell of a lot of hours doing it. And at the end of the game, if you haven't been able to incorporate a lock-out gate and a starter safety switch into your design----well, that shift lever only has to get bumped into reverse once at 60 MPH or someone only has to reach in the door and turn the key to "start" position once when the car is setting in gear, and how much have you saved???? I love to design and build my own stuff, but sometimes it just makes more sense to run to the aftermarket.
Brian: The truest statement you have ever made was about the wisdom of buying a manufactured unit, like a Lokar or Gennie, rather than putzing around with this homemade one. When I look back on how many pages of this thread this one subject consumed, it is amazing. How can something so simple be so hard?
You have probably seen me give other rodders who are struggling with some issue the very same advice you just gave to me. "Quit messing around with it, bite the bullet and spend a couple of bucks to do it right." I should have just ordered the Gennie a couple of weeks ago and been done with it. My own Son and I had this little discussion at the shop one night, and that was his advice too. But I was trying to come in as close to the original $ 3 K figure as possible, and that meant building, rather than buying, most of the components. But in this particular case I admit I was being penny wise and pound foolish.
All of you, especially Brian, have expended a great deal of time and effort on what should have been a non-issue, and I thank each of you for that help. For now I am going to stop working on the shifter, and see what happens when the spring plunger arrives next week. I would like to salvage this shifter, because of the time I have in it (Yeah, I know that's just stupid and stubborn) and I may actually just order a Gennie in the final analysis. We will have to see.
But thanks again to everybody for all the help and suggestions. The info won't be wasted, as I am sure a lot of others will benefit from what we have been discussing. Today I am going to work on other areas of the T. I don't even want to see that stupid shifter for a while.:3dSMILE: :3dSMILE: :3dSMILE: :3dSMILE: :3dSMILE:
Thanks again guys for all you tried to do here. It helped a lot.
Don
Oh, Don!!!! You never get to old to make an error of judgement. I still do sometimes. Sometimes being able to say "I done it myself" takes a man down roads that are best left untravelled.----You are not alone!!!!**) **) **)
Yep, look how nice and compact the Lokars and Gennies are.
Don
Experience..................being able to recognize more quickly a mistake you've made before!
Today I decided to get away from the shifter thing for awhile and work on the brake pedal and master cylinder mount. Building one of these is no big deal, but obviously you want everything to be strong and function properly.
I started by cutting the shape of the brake pedal out of some 3/8 inch thick steel plate I have. I used the bandsaw to cut it into sort of a hockey club shape. Once that was done I started the heating and bending process to get it to the shape I needed. The pedal has to go to the left a little of the frame rail, so I bent it that direction a couple of inches.
Once the bending was done I trimmed the ends a little to make it more attractive, and drilled the hole in one end for the pedal pad I will probably order from Speedway, and I put another hole in the bottom for the master cylinder rod. A final, 5/8 diameter hole was drilled toward the bottom, and this will be the pivot point that mounts to the frame.
Here are some pictures of the first steps in making the pedal.
The next thing I did was build a mount to afix the master cylinder to the frame. You can use just a flat plate to do this, and gusset it, but since this car sits so low I want some protection for the master cylinder in case the car bottoms out or hits something in the road. I used a piece of large angle iron, and after cutting it I drilled the proper pattern into the front edge to accept the Ford Mustang master cylinder I bought last week. I also made up a 3rd wall out of 1/4 inch flat stock, so when the whole thing is welded to the frame it should not only be strong, but act as a skidplate to protect the master cylinder. I'd hate to wipe out the master cylinder on a speed bump or pothole.:eek: :eek: :eek:
The last pictures show the pedal and master cylinder mount, and their relationship to one another. I still have some work to do on them, but this should give you some idea of what I am shooting for. That flat plate you see on the side of the master cylinder will be welded completely to the frame and to the angle iron mount, so it should never move.
Thanks for looking,
Don
Don
Shouldn't there be some protection for the rod also if you were to hit somthing the brake would be activated.
Very good point. Actually, only about an inch of the master cylinder mount will be down below the frame, and the entire rod and bottom of the pedal is not below the frame, so they are in no danger. I had to mount the master cylinder a little lower to get it below where I want the floor to be, that is why it is lower.
But, when I looked at the pictures tonight, I think I will continue a skid plate curved up to a point in front of the pedal, arching upwards. This will be a smoother transition for any obstruction I might hit, and let it sort of flow past the master cylinder.
Don
I know that if it CAN happen it will. I remember on time trying to adjust the steering valve on a vett. I thought I had it centered. Got in had my hand on the wheel started the engine That wheel took of so fast that if I'd had my hand anywhere but loose on top I'd have broke somthing. I try not to leave anything to chance any more.
Today I got more done, and didn't spend a penny. My favorite kind of day.:D :D :D
The first thing I did was weld the 3rd wall to the master cylinder bracket, and clamp it to the frame rail for a trial fit. It also dawned on me that I still have the stick tranny in place, and maybe I had better put the turbo 350 in there to make sure everything is going to clear. Rather than use the rebuilt one I just got, I used the dummy case so that I can drip fiberglass and stuff all over it without causing any harm to my good one. After it was in place I was kind of relieved to see that it took up no more space on the drivers side than the stick trans, so I am going to be ok there for pedal room and foot room.
The next thing I needed to do was finish up the cowl roll bar skeleton that will be the backbone of the dash. I finished welding the part that goes under the dash to the roll bar with 3 short lengths of 1 x 1 tubing. When it was all done it really is strong, and will give me a great mounting place for my steering and my windshield. In fact, I could actually drive the car with only the skeleton in place, because the body will only be a skin to dress this framework up.
Here are some shots of how it turned out.
Don
PS: The little wing on the drivers side is smaller than the passenger side by design. My ignition switch comes through the dash there, and it had to be smaller to clear that.
To give some idea of how the windshield bolts through the dash and into these wings on the skeleton, here are a couple of shots. I will weld some plates to the top of the frame and tap threads into these so the roll bar can be removed when needed.
When I got the windshield bolted on the skeleton I tried shaking it and it didn't move. When the body is also in place it should be even stiffer.
Thanks for looking,
Don
looks good
Heck, it is starting to look like a car.
Thanks Pat and Squire. Yeah, it is kinda starting to come along. The jobs I am doing now are in that plateau where they aren't as dramatic as putting a front end under the car, but they are getting done. I also am finding I need to do some things that are 5 steps ahead of where I am, so they will fit when it is time to install them. This dash support is a major step, and now I can hang the steering for the last time.
By the way, my Son stayed at the shop a lot longer than me last night (like 4 AM) working on his '29. Today when I got to the shop I saw he had all of the body panels made up and had them in place with Cleco (sp) fasteners. He is almost ready to start welding the back panels into place. Here are some shots from today of where his car stands.
Don
Don, just a thought on your car.....you could maybe make more seat room in the cab by lowering your driveshaft loop 3 or 4 inches. Whatever clearance there is from the joint to the side of the loop, make it that same dimension from the joint to the top of the loop. Also you should know that the loop needs to be 360 degrees around the shaft to be legal in NHRA.
Tech: It can't go any lower because it is going to also form my driveshaft tunnel, and if I go any lower the driveshaft will possibly hit when the car bottoms out. It actually looks higher in the pictures than it is, and doesn't intrude on the seating because it is only 6 inches wide. There is a bottom to the hoop, I made two 3/8 x 2 inch straps across the bottom. These bolt in so I can get the shaft out if needed.
I probably won't be allowed on the strip for a lot of other reasons like blanket, roll cage, etc., so street use will be all this thing sees.
What makes that tunnel so high is that the frame is much lower than traditional T's. Being this low creates some real challenges, and will probably cause me to be very careful entering and leaving driveways. I figure the car will settle down another inch or two yet when everything is installed.
Don
don your son truck looks great . i wish i still had the drive to stay up that late to work on cars .i did once
Thanks Pat. Yeah, wish I did too. He likes it because after about 9 PM it starts to cool off and you feel like working. A few nights I went over to the shop about midnight after I got up from a nap. It was really nice not to be sweating all over my work for a change. At least Fall is coming, so it should start cooling off pretty soon.:3dSMILE: :3dSMILE: :3dSMILE: :3dSMILE:
My Son is a musician, so he is used to being up late. To him, 2am is when work ends.:) :) :) :)
Don
yes .i like to work late to. i use to like to paint at 4:00 when no one is around .i am trying to get back to find my drive i had. i am good for 4 hours on my feet and thats it
Don, I have been enjoying this string today, a great source of info. I am contemplating my first rod (my dad has built a few (with some help from me), but am nervous about the DMV. What are your plans for registering this T? I am in CT and if I undertook a project such as this, it would be registered as a 2006 composite vehicle, which means emmissions testing, ride height, bumpers, fenders, lighting requirements etc. This kind of kills my idea of building one from scratch. I am assuming your local DMV doesn't require such things...
Keep up the good work, looks awesome.
Gusaroo: Thanks for the nice words. I was lucky enough to buy a T bucket project a few years ago that had a good title. Ended up scrapping the body and frame as they were trashed, but kept all the good stuff. I intend on using this title, which reads 1923 T.
Some States are tough to title cars in. Florida, luckily, is kind of like the old West. We all carry guns here, and as long as you don't shoot anybody in the back, you are ok.:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: Our laws regarding cars are kinda on the "loose" side. The reason I moved from Pa. was to get away from those overly restrictive regulations.
You should see some of the cars that are driving around down here. At some cruises it looks like the local dragstrip just let out. Slicks, blowers, open headers, etc. Gotta love it. I was coming home from a cruise one night in my '27 and had the headers uncorked. Cop pulls up next to me and I figure I am dogmeat. He says to me "nice rod, my Sister has a '34 coupe." and drives on his way.:3dSMILE: :3dSMILE: :3dSMILE: I hope they still have the same sense of humor, because the T is going to have either zoomies or open megaphones.
Don
Don---How are you doing with your budget on the 3K project so far?