or this one.
Printable View
or this one.
Don,
The process is really simple.
Basically you fab up a plug out Expanded Polystyrene foam, the white stuff cheap coolers and drinking cups are made of (there's a reason I didn't refer to "Styrofoam" but that's a whole nother story) to the shape of the inner tunnel.
You can get this from a variety of sources in sheet, block form.
Working tools can consist of any of the following-Bread knife, hacksaw blade, utility razor, band saw can all be used for cutting.
Rasp, surform, D A , 40-80 grit abrasives for shaping, finer grit for finishing.
Once you've shaped the plug to fit, you seal (assuming you're using Poly resin) it. Sealers would include any of the following. Water based acrylic enamel paint, Latex house paint, or even a coat of thinned Elmers glue. Absolutely no solvent base materials.
Once the sealer has dried/cured use of a parting agent is optional but recommended.
Lay up your glass over the plug, if the working side of the glass is going to be finished ie. exposed to open view, take appropriate steps to facilitate (build).
Allow the glass to fully cure.
Once cured flip the plug over and carve a basin in the center of the plug.
Fill the basin with Acetone and set aside in a well ventilated area away from sparks or open flame.
The acetone will dissolve the EP, you more than likely will need to clear the cavity and add fresh Acetone until the majority of the foam is dissolved. If you used a parting agent in conjunction, you should be able to break the plug free prior to complete dissolution of the foam.
Clean, trim, fit your new tranny tunnel!
So in the application I am doing, I would form these sheets around the transmission (allowing some clearance), coat it, and use that as a male plug?
If so, how do you join the sheets together at the seams? Tape of some sort?
Sounds interesting. Tell me more.
Tom.........I looked for the post you mentioned to me. Couldn't find it. Have you done it yet? PM me at the other place.
Don
Think of the game Battleship
Don,
The method I described would be stand alone. Layed up off the vehicle.
Lay out a 1" grid on 2 posterboards then locate the centerlines in both axis's and highlight them. From the centerline dividing the width, assign the letter A to the first line right of the centerline. Assign the letter B to the next, C to the following line (continuing working to the right) D to the next and so on until you've ran out of lines.
Moving back to the centerline assign letters to all the lines to the right of the centerline using lower case letters ie. a,b,c,d, etc.
Repeat the process for assigning lines for both fore and aft of the centerline for the length poster board. However use numerals for designators such as 1,2,3, on the lines fore of the centerline and -1,-2,-3 aft of the centerline.
Do this to both boards.
Youll pull your dimensional measurements from the cut out in the floor pan for TOTAL length divide it in half, and transfer these to both posterboards locating out from the centerline both fore and aft, draw a line across the width of the sheet at 90 degrees to the length centerline at both fore and aft locations. Lets say these lines intersected at 18 (fore) and -18aft (for a TOTAL length of 36".
Now measure the widest measurement at the cut out on the firewall for the bellhousing and it was 24" divide it in half (12") and transfer this measurement on both sides of the width centerline on FORE line 18. You should now have indicators on 18L and 18l Now take the width measurement at the aft position 10" again divide by half 5" and locate on Aft line -18at the E and again at e positions.
Lay a tape measure/yardstick along the cut out on the floorpan and working from the bellhousing back transfer the contour of the cut out onto the grid using the steps above. You don't have to indicate every inch, just where the contour changes.
Once you've completed this, you can connect the dots and you have a accurate but rough outline of the Topview of the tunnel.
Refine by eyeballing curves and contours and adjusting on the grid.
Repeat the process on the second board using the highest point of the bellhousing for total height and locate points of contour on the A,B,C / a,b,c, gridlines.
Label this side view.
Now that you have both layout patterns you can obtain the needed amount of EP for the plug.
If you are making your plug up from several pieces you can use Carpet Tape to affix the pieces together to form a rectangular block.
Once you have the block, draw centerlines in both axis's on all sides using a sharpie.
Cut out your patterns and trace the outlines on to the blocks aligning the centerlines from the patterns to the centerlines of the block.
Cut the sideview outline on the block first, making sure you remark the centerline back on the block after cutting.
Now cut out the Top view sections off the block and again replacing the centerlines after cutting.
Using your patterns you can now shape to finish form.
Clear as mud huh?**) :3dSMILE:
I've got to crash, I'll follow up tomorrow with diagrams that might pull this all together.
No, it is actually pretty clear. How does an electric carving knife work for this? I've used one of these in the past, and it cuts some foams well, so probably would work ok here too.
Thanks for the detailed info, I may give this a shot if I can figure out exactly how to measure my trans/bellhousing accurately enough. I'm not good at measuring stuff, so I usually have just put something over the top of the trans and laid up the glass over that. However, I saw a guy building an entire car on TV one night, and he did it essentially the way you describe.
Thanks again Tom.
Don
Hey Itoldyouso, it might have been my gallery that you were looking at. I have built a couple of shifters this way...
Don---I assume that what you and Supa-Roosta are discussing is building a glass transmission hump to work for your car. I know a very neat and simple way of doing this, and would be happy to explain if you want. Do you have the wooden floor glassed in now, with just a cut out area for the tranny hump and driveshaft loop"---Brian
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Robinson
I went back and looked at your gallery, yep, you are the guy. Thanks for the ideas. Great looking cars and gallery BTW.
Brian, your posts are always informative. Please do put whatever in here you think would be helpful. I would like this thread to be everybody's, and the more ideas and info the better. Those colored graphics you do leave little to the imagination, and make things very clear.
No, I haven't laid the floor in yet, but may actually start on that this weekend, but first I want to work on the rest of the shifter and brake pedal assembly.
Thanks to supa roosta, J Robinson, and Brian for the ideas and help. Lord knows I need all I can get.:D :D :D :D :D :D
Don
Don---when you make the plywood (I assume) floor, leave a 1/4" to 3/8" gap between it and the sides of the fiberglass body. If it actually sets up against the body, it will leave a visible line on the outside of the body that no amount of filler, putty, nor paint will hide. Cut fiberglass cloth or mat about 8" wide, and let half of it overlap onto the plywood all the way around, and the other half spans over the gap and up onto the inside of the body. When it has "set", flip the body over and repeat from the other side. There is a fair bit of measuring and cardboard pattern making involved in cutting out the hole where the transmission hump needs to be, and that has to be done before the plywood is glassed into place. There are as many ways of making these patterns as there are feathers on a duck, so I'm, not going to say much about that. The tranny hump, though----this is a kind of neat trick. Since there isn't much room in the cab area of a T-bucket, you want the tranny hump to be as small as possible, but you don't want the tranny to be hitting or rubbing on it. When I built my 27 roadster, I had an old "dummy" 350 automatic that I used to set up the mounts (it was a home built frame). I installed the engine and tranny, and bolted it in place. I glassed in the 3/4" marine plywood floor in the body, exactly as I explained above.---Now heres the neat part. I decided that I wanted a 1/2" gap all around between the fiberglass tranny hump I would build and the actual transmission.---So----I took an old broom handle and sawed it up into peices 1/2" long. I took my trusty glue gun, and glued peices of 1/2" long broom handle all over the top surface of the old transmission, with about 2" spaces between them. I then took a small tub of drywall mud, and troweled a layer 1/2" thick all over the exposed surface of the tranny that stuck up above the floorboards. The peices of 1/2" long broom handle ensured that the coating of drywall mud was uniformly 1/2" thick over the entire surface. I let it dry for a couple of days, then gave it a couple of coats of Johnsons Paste Floorwax on top of the plaster. I then layed up the fiberglass mat over the entire plaster surface, and let it extend about 4" out onto the surounding plywood floor and up onto the firewall. I used about 3 layers of mat, with 1 hour flash off times between layers. I let it dry overnight, then unbolted the body, walked to the back of it, and gave it a good yank straight up. Then my sons and I lifted the body off. Some of the plaster stayed on the tranny, some stuck to the fiberglass, but it is easily removed with a putty knife and air nozzle. I was left with a perfect fiberglass transmission hump, with an exact 1/2" gap between it and the transmission, all around.----Brian
Brian: Some really good ideas there. I knew some of it, like never to put the plywood up tight against the fiberglass body, as it will show through, but other things you suggested were new to me.
The idea of the cut up broomstick is a super way to get that uniform gap all the way around. The plaster is another good idea. I just read a story about Ed Roth, when he built the "Beatnick Bandit" and some other cars, he used the plaster male mold idea too.
When I built the hump in my '27 I shaped cardboard over the transmission and painted a couple of coats of fiberglass resin on it to make it ridgid, then I put wax paper over it (big butcher size) and laid the glass up over that. Since this hump is going to be much larger than that one, either of the methods you and supa roosta have explained will probably work well.
I think what I will do for the plywood is run two pieces, one down either side of the trans hump and driveshaft tunnel, then form something (maybe thin aluminum) over the driveshaft hoops. I will then build up fiberglass cloth over that aluminum. I'll make it so the aluminum is only a temporary form. For the trans tunnel, I will use some of both of your ideas there, because I'm not sure yet if I will do the hump on the car frame or off.
Thanks again, and if anyone else has any ideas to interject along the way for any subject, please do. The more ideas that come into this thing the better, and they will give some other builders some great options based on real building experiences.
I really appreciate you guys participating in this thread, and also for reading it.
Don
Don---One of the best things I've ever found for making accurate patterns is my $11 glue gun. When I made the pattern for my T roadster floor, I cut a peice of cheap particle board deliberately about 4" undersize from what I knew I would need. My floor was recessed about 6" (the car was channeled that much) so I couldn't just lay the bottom of the car on the plywood and trace around it. With the particle board dummied into place (off the frame), ---actually I propped the body up on four 8" high cement blocks, one on each corner, and propped the particle board up on four 14" high blocks of wood. Then I took a bunch of 12" x 8" peices of cardboard, and set each peice tight against the inside of the fiberglass body, then glued it to the particle board all the way around the inside of the car. When I finished doing that, I lifted the particle board out, with all the cardboard stuck around the edges. I drew a line all the way around the perimeter of the cardboard, 3/8" in from the outside edge, and trimmed it off with my shop scissors. This then gave me the perfect size template to use when I cut my 3/4" marine plywood floor.
Brian: That is a super way to do it. I have always had a problem getting the exact fit, even though I scribed lines every inch and measured out from there. No matter how I tried, the finished cut was always a little off from the measurements. I will try your method. It sounds foolproof.
I'll post some pictures when I get to that stage.
Thanks,
Don
Hey guys,
In all my years of building cars I have never encountered the problem of the floor showing through on the outside of a fiberglass body. Was I just lucky? What causes this problem? I'm getting ready to start another project and I don't want to trust it to "luck" again...
I've got a book that I bought years ago before I ever did my first glass car, the title is "The fiberglass boat repair manual." Although it relates to boat repair and boat building, fiberglass work is fiberglass work, whether it is a boat or car, so the info in it was really informative.
In that book they say to never lay the edge of plywood directly touching the existing glass (or in our case, the body) because it can leave an imprint on the outside of the body where the new fiberglass work is being done. I think it has something to do with the fiberglass curing and pulling the body to the plywood floor, or maybe the plywood just creates a dark shadow there. I just don't remember the exact reason. But I have watched our fiberglass guy at work replace many transoms in boats, and he always leaves a gap at the edges, and he and I have lightly talked about the need to do that. But once again, I just don't remember the specific reason.
I have the book right here in front of me, and I will try to find the paragraph that discusses that and post it if I can find it before I have to leave to go to the shop this AM.
Don
J Robinson.---I know a million things. About 300,000 of them, I learned from practical, hands on experience, building my own cars over the last 41 years. The rest I learned by reading a lot and talking to people I considered smarter or more experienced than me (they've grown fewer as I've grown older):LOL: :LOL: The bit about not letting interior flooring or firewall or bulkheads come in direct contact with the fiberglass body shell falls into the latter category. Since it seemed to be a pretty well established fact in "fiberglass expert" circles, I have never taken the chance of doing it any other way. Deep down, I believe that it has to do with the different expansion/contraction rates of fiberglass versus plywood.---if you have a peice of plywood 3/4" wide touching the fiberglass body, then it is a "point contact" type of thing, and will leave a "shadow" on the finished body. If you leave a gap, and tie the plywood to the body with a "flange" of fiberglass about 3 to 4" wide, then the loading is spread out over a much greater surface area, and won't leave a shadow.----I think thats it, anyways.:whacked:
Yeah, I think that is it. Perhaps it creates a hard spot too, where it can't flex and work without causing some problem.
Brian pretty much said why I do it, this is something all the professionals I have seen do, so I just felt there must be a good reason not to question their experience. I tried to find that paragragh, but the book is pretty thick, so it will take me more time than I have today. I will try tonight when I am sitting around, and will post it for you.
This was a great question you raised , though. Thanks for asking why.
Don
Would the flange be T'd on the plywood or more like an angle iron shape. If I understand you are saying you should cut your plywood a little small and then build the flange on to it to the size of the template. Then attach the flange to the body wall.
Thanks for the answers. The difference in expansion and contraction makes good sense. Apparently I was just lucky in the past. I must have inadvertenly cut the few floors I've done with just enough "slop" for them to work out OK. I have been building hotrod and stock car chassis off & on since 1968 and I learn something new every time I do another one. Just goes to show that you're never too old to learn...
Brickman: The process is called "tabbing" in the business (boats primarily). What you do is lay your plywood in place, then lay up strips of fiberglass in an L shape , part of it on the plywood and the other part of the L on the body. You wet it out, then you lay another L shaped piece over the top of that one, with each sucessive one slightly wider than the last one, so that each one goes out a little further than the last one. The reason for this is so you don't create a hard, sharp place, where the glass can start to crack out. Each L is wider than the last one, if you can envision that. When I start the glassing I will take pictures to show this.
J: You probably put enough gap in those ones you did to be ok, it doesn't have to be a huge gap, just like a 1/4 inch or so. Yeah, I learn something all the time, and this forum has been a real learning experience, as we have some really talented folks on here, in a lot of areas. Wish I would have had a forum like this years ago.
Don
I kinda got a little late start today, but continued working on the shifter. I decided to go with the Craftsman wrench, what do you think of it???
Don
looks pretty good.. if is was me id use a 1/2" for that shorter throw:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
Harmon
Just kidding !!!!!!!!!!!:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
No, actually, I am using the early Ford shift handle, and built some brackets out of 3 x 3 angle iron that I cut into a shape . I am going to use a spring loaded ball bearing as a detent, so that the shifter clicks into each gear. I still have some work to do on that, but about 3/4 of the shifter is done.
Here are some pictures, starting with the angle iron I cut, and then the pretty much laid out shifter. I could have just ordered a Lokar, or Gennie, but this was more satisfying, and I have about 20.00 in the whole thing so far. Used lots of scrap steel out of our scrap heap.
Thanks for looking.
Don
So Don, you are just making your own floor? Will this be cheaper than just getting one from Speedway Motors you think? I never understood how to attach these things to a glass body but I am guessing through an angle iron shape on the body and set the floor on that or what? I am trying to invision what you guys are talking about here and about 5% of it makes sense to me and that is the part of the wood rubbing the glass. Remember I told you about the 4 door for sale? I am not sure if I am going to get that now because I cannot get the money in time and so I am going to start planning out a glass bodied car. I'm just worried about building a glass car from all the bad things I hear about them. If you can get some pics from this process then that would be great! If I got a T kit like yours (or maybe the roadster one) I would want to channel it and such so the pictures will definetely help.
I am going to go back and read most of this thread now to see all that I missed! :D
Heres one more shot.
CHEVYBOY:
Yeah, when I race it I'll use the 1/2 inch for quicker shifts.:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
Don
FMX: Here maybe this will make it a little easier to understand. If you can envision that for the most part all T buckets and similar bodies are just a big empty shell. So what you do is channel it the desired amount, then you have to build a floor for it. The majority of builders simply cut a big sheet of plywood into a floor shape that goes all around the inside perimeter of the body. Sort of like if you took a room in a house, and laid a floor from wall to wall going both directions. Then, you have to secure that plywood to the sides of the body some way, so you grind the inside of the body, where you are going to lay glass (it won't stick if you don't get the top layer off) and you cut fiberglass mat or glass into strips that are maybe 4 inches wide X a couple of feet long. Then you cut some strips 6 inches wide x a couple feet long, and then some 8 inches wide x a couple feet long. Now, you wet about 2 or 3 inches up the inside wall of the car, and also wet the same amount on the plywood. You lay down the first 4 inch strips and push them into place, making an L. in the corner (sort of like a baseboard in a house, but with another leg that is coming onto the floor.
When that is in place, you put the 6 inch pieces over the 4 inch piece, overlapping it, and extending out into the floor and up the side 1 inch further. you keep doing that until you feel you have enough layers to make it strong. After that, you flip the body upside down and do the very same thing on the underside of the body. When you are done, the body will now have a very strong floor. You still have to put some other wood on the sides, and I will take pictures as I do that, as well.
Hope this helps clear it up somewhat.
Don
Ok thank you Don, I completely understand this now. How about using Fuzor instead of glass matt? We use Fuzor at the shop all the time and man that stuff is STRONG! I know a lot of people are using it now to weld panels together (or fuzor them together instead of weld)... Either way, I now know exactly what your saying. What size plywood should I use if I do this? Only thing I would worry about is rotting of the wood later but then again it won't be out in the rain much with no top. lol
Never heard of fuzor. Problem is, plywood is tough to get anything but resin and glass to stick to, so I don't know if this product is compatable.
Well, some people use marine grade plywood. I think Brian mentioned he did that. I just use exterior grade plywood, but the key is to seal the EDGES of the plywood before you put it down. Moisture gets into plywood through the cut edges and starts the rotting.delaminating process. If you paint a couple of good coats of resin on the edges, that seals them. Plus, when you get done tabbing the body to the plywood, you run a layer or two of mat over the entire top and bottom of the plywood, as a skin. Water can't get in that way. Every time you drill a hole in the plywood to mount something, use some marine caulk and that will waterproof it even more.
It's just like building a boat, really. My glassman at work is going to hook me up with some new cloth he says is super strong, and I am anxious to try it on the tunnel and trans hump.
Don
Well, sounds good Don. I am going to keep looking in this thing then. Thanks a lot for the info!
Don, there's already detents in the trans,if you put your shifter on you actual transmission,I'm sure you'll feel them in the stick.If you want more,you might be able to use the same detent assy on the shifter,given the shift levers are the same lengths. just a thought, Hank
Thanks for that info Hank. I kinda thought that was the case, but with the long shift lever I'm using I was afraid the weight might vibrate it into another gear. When I get the new trans in (should be this week) I will be able to hook up the lever and see how it feels. I'm hoping you are right.
Don
Hey Don, the car looks great. I must admit this thread burned my butt at first. I recently picked up a finished:confused: T Bucket For a pretty decent price, I figured I could drive it the rest of the year and make my changes this winter. After finding the steering coupler had never been tightened :eek: and the clevises tourqed down so tight the suspension would not move. I decided to go through the whole car now. So as i'm tearing into my great deal I find your thread, not happy!! It took about 5 minutes to figure out this is the best thing that could happen. My vision for mine is very close to yours.
I have alway's been a muscle car guy and this is my first try with a street rod so you can imagine how much this help's, so please don't lose interest.
I do have a couple of questions, are your slicks 820x15 or 1000x15, and other than using a radius rod setup like yours is there any way to get the rear that low?
Thanks Ron
That's a good way to do it. I think I have a system worked out with a spring loaded ball bearing the rides on the larger of the 2 plates I made to support the handle. I made it bigger to give me more surface area. I thought if I drilled little depressions in the exact spots where the trans detents are, it would suppliment the holding power. I figure the spring loaded ball would ride along the plate and drop into the little depression.
We'll see how it feels when the real trans shows up.
Thanks Denny,
Don
Don---The detents in the transmission are not strong enough to hold the gearshift in place. The detents in the tranny will also let you shift directly from drive into reverse or park at any speed. You need to build in detents and lockouts into your shifter mechanism.---Brian
I'm afraid you are right. Plus, if it drops into another gear while underway it probably would not be too cool.
Don
don great work. looks good . on the glass work i use fiber gel made by swiss this works great and is very easy to work with or the west system both work good with wood to glass and what i like to do is make a backer from thin aluminum like for a trans tunnel screw it to the wood and lay up the glass this will let you get form with the glass and work on the aluminum keeps thing from moving or dripping and when done pop it off. if the aluminum is not sanded it will come off and you get a nice job with a good form .if this helps any one ?
Pat: You are right about West System. It is the premier epoxy resin, as are all of the products they make. Not inexpensive, but really high quality and it holds very well.
I plan to do the aluminum routine over the tunnel, as you mentioned. It holds it's shape better than cardboard.
Don
yes and it is made in bay city mich. my friend builds air planes and boats with itQuote:
Originally Posted by Itoldyouso
FMX,
Was just reading Don's updates and saw your posting and have a suggestion. Get the fordor, remove the rear doors and move them foward and add pickup bed (you wanted pick-up) and you have an extended cab pick-up and a different look.:3dSMILE: :3dSMILE:
Don, kep us posted about the new products (name, manuf. etc.), as I am going to add the windshield lip/new cowl to my '32 so I can use a chopped stock type windshield.
Keep up the good work.
Jim
P.S. Keep a pen or pencil in your hand and if you fall asleep it falls out and wakes you up!;) ;) :LOL:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron B.
Ron: Whew!! When I read the first part of your post, I thought you were mad at me.:eek: :eek: Glad to see I don't have to leave town.:3dSMILE:
Thanks for the nice words. The tires are 10:00 X 15 Firestones from Coker.
You are so wise to nut and bolt the whole car you just bought. Buying someone elses unfinished or even finished rod is a great way to get a deal, but you have to check it all out to make sure there is no Mickey Mouse stuff going on. Start right at the frame and suspension, and go over it with a fine tooth comb, and if you see something suspicious, don't even think about it, just fix it.
Setting a rod this low created some problems with rear suspension, and the fact the rear axle is right against the body made it even worse. I pondered this one for a while, and couldn't come up with a better solution, mainly because I didn't want the radius rods pointing down to the ground in the front. I think it will be ok though.
On my '39 Dodge we used a three bar setup from Suicide Doors, and it really makes a nice compact setup, and the Dodge is set low also. I don't have a picture of it here at work in this computer, so I will post a shot tonight for you. It makes for a very clean, good riding setup.
Thanks again for the nice words, it's nice to learn that at least one member isn't bored with the posts I have been doing on this car.**) **)
Don
Old Hippie, great idea but I doubt I am getting this thing now. The owner seems a little fishy to me and it is one of those things where you may have some problems so I am going to steer away and wait. Which really that is ok, it gives me time to sell one or two of my projects I have now and save up. Heck I may find me a truck later this year so waiting is not always bad. For now I will research and be 10 steps ahead when I get to that point.