One way to build a '32 sedan

[QUOTE=ford2custom;396413]

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

Richard - I'm probably not explaining it clearly. The Schroeder steering boxes were the most used way back hen. Indy cars used them and sprint cars still use them I think. I just think they look cool. I have used them in the past but when you mount them in the correct height inside the car to get the correct geometry outside the car so you don't have any bump steer you can beat the snot out of your shins. Especially in a clutch car, it takes up a lot of room. So now that I'm "older" I want more comfort so I just came up with a way of getting the correct geometry to eliminate bump steer and give me more room for my legs. That's all this is.

Ken,
You explain everything in great detail; I’m just not as well versed as you. I have seen the arm (pitman arm) coming outside of the cowl section but just never thought too much about it. I did a little research and found an article from Street Rodder Magazine. I found one with the gear drive but not the chain. That must have been another type but the same principal I’m guessing. In the old racecars being real narrow I can see how it would give more legroom. They also said like you they are just cool like old is new again. At my age I’m still learning, I just found out more then I knew before you posted the pictures. In my day I did more buying/selling and trading cars then actually building, if something broke I tried to fix it just to keep it running. Looking back now, I wish I had spent more time taking cars apart and seeing how things work then just keeping them looking good.

Thanks for taking the time to get me to reading about the different types of steering. I will tell you I know what bump steer can do, it almost caused me to flip a 40 Chevy Coupe that had a citation rack and pinion steering mounted to a tube straight axle.

Thanks Ken, as usual you're a good guy for sharing your knowledge.

Richard


http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/...chevrolet.html

Attachment 45123

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Richard your doing better than me. I don't even know what bump steering is, unless it is the car steering you over a bump?

[QUOTE=stovens;396443]

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Originally Posted by ford2custom

Richard your doing better than me. I don't even know what bump steering is, unless it is the car steering you over a bump?

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In brief, you hit a bump and the car "decides" to change directions "on it's own"......several causes, but can be summed as steering hardware engineered/installed wrong.

Hey I know this one!

Bump steer is when your front tires steer left or right as your wheels move up and down due to a bump. Here's a cool video on YouTube that shows it very well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKJAukSZRT0

Here is a little more.

http://bulletproofsteering.com/geometry.html

That’s exactly how it happen Bob, we had just left the fair grounds in Columbus, Ohio NSRA. I was going up a ramp leading to the by pass, the ramp was banked to the right and there was a raised expansion joint. When the right front wheel hit the raised area all hell broke loose. I had no control of the car it was going back and forth. I thought it was going to flip. I got it stopped just before it was about to hit the guardrail.

Richard

[QUOTE=ford2custom;396413]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

Richard - I'm probably not explaining it clearly. The Schroeder steering boxes were the most used way back hen. Indy cars used them and sprint cars still use them I think. I just think they look cool. I have used them in the past but when you mount them in the correct height inside the car to get the correct geometry outside the car so you don't have any bump steer you can beat the snot out of your shins. Especially in a clutch car, it takes up a lot of room. So now that I'm "older" I want more comfort so I just came up with a way of getting the correct geometry to eliminate bump steer and give me more room for my legs. That's all this is.

Ken,
You explain everything in great detail; I’m just not as well versed as you. I have seen the arm (pitman arm) coming outside of the cowl section but just never thought too much about it. I did a little research and found an article from Street Rodder Magazine. I found one with the gear drive but not the chain. That must have been another type but the same principal I’m guessing. In the old racecars being real narrow I can see how it would give more legroom. They also said like you they are just cool like old is new again. At my age I’m still learning, I just found out more then I knew before you posted the pictures. In my day I did more buying/selling and trading cars then actually building, if something broke I tried to fix it just to keep it running. Looking back now, I wish I had spent more time taking cars apart and seeing how things work then just keeping them looking good.

Thanks for taking the time to get me to reading about the different types of steering. I will tell you I know what bump steer can do, it almost caused me to flip a 40 Chevy Coupe that had a citation rack and pinion steering mounted to a tube straight axle.

Thanks Ken, as usual you're a good guy for sharing your knowledge.

Richard


http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/...chevrolet.html

Attachment 45123

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Richard,
The lower photo bolts into the steering box taking the place of the existing part. It makes it easier to steer at lower speeds. That has been the biggest complaint with using these on the street. The ratio is 8 to 1, not very favorable when your wife goes to the grocery store. That replacement piece changes it to 16 to one.
Ken

When I first did the alignment on my car I used the TCI specs. They are not right and had some scary bump steer encounters. Now instead of 1/32" toe in, it's now 3/32's. The caster was 1.5* now it's ~3.5* with the camber at their spec. Voila - it now handles very nicely. Will I experience some additional tire wear by not using the TCI spec - maybe, so what, but at least the car handles very nicely now.

Dave,
I think you will have less tire wear with your set up. Anytime it handles better you are using less tire friction.
Ken

Wow! Truely a great write up so far. Can't wait to read more!

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Originally Posted by ford2custom

That’s exactly how it happen Bob, we had just left the fair grounds in Columbus, Ohio NSRA. I was going up a ramp leading to the by pass, the ramp was banked to the right and there was a raised expansion joint. When the right front wheel hit the raised area all hell broke loose. I had no control of the car it was going back and forth. I thought it was going to flip. I got it stopped just before it was about to hit the guardrail.

Richard

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Nope Richard, what you are describing is Death Wobble......totally different than Bump Steer. Bump steer usually only takes your car a little off course one direction or the other. When the wheels shimmy back and forth violently in both directions, that is Death Wobble. When that one happens to you it is something you never want to experience again. :eek:

Don

This little video shows Death Wobble on a Jeep.

Don

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwiv2...eature=related

Don, I had a 31 Ford 5-window coupe in the late 60’s when I would go across a set of railroad tracks I would have to come to almost a complete stop. If I hit the tracks too fast the front end would wobble uncontrollable both wheels. I put a set of king pins in and that stopped the wobble. I was on a motorcycle going 98 miles an hour and the front wheel broke loose; I thought it was over for me.

I guess when I mentioned the 40 Chevy, it happened so fast the car went to the left then right like you would make real sharp turns on the steering wheel. I should not have said back and forth. I thought it was going to flip. I wasn’t going that fast either. Anyway all three times was really scary.

Richard

This is a very good thread. What I have seen so far relates mostly to IFS, except the Jeep video which I think was a solid axle 4WD. I have a solid I beam on the 34 and never had any trouble over the years I drove it as a daily driver (used push pull with a F1 steering box). I have since upgraded to Unisteer R/P cross steer and am wondering what I might have to deal with when I get it back on the road. Should the cross steer rod be parallel to the tie rod.? If so I would have to either lower the Unisteer or get different spindle arms and put slots in my split wish bones for the cross steer and tie rods. or? Oh good, another delay in the project.:rolleyes: Once again,this is a really good thread.

Jack.

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

Dave,
I think you will have less tire wear with your set up. Anytime it handles better you are using less tire friction.
Ken

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Yeah Ken, my instinct tells me that as well - but even if I only get 10-15,000 miles out of those premium Yokohama AVS 'Z' rated tires, I'll be a very happy camper - and yes, I know 'Z' rated tires on a car with the aerodynamics of a slightly rounded brick is ludicrous, but if the size AND price are right......:LOL::LOL:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Nope Richard, what you are describing is Death Wobble......totally different than Bump Steer. Bump steer usually only takes your car a little off course one direction or the other. When the wheels shimmy back and forth violently in both directions, that is Death Wobble. When that one happens to you it is something you never want to experience again. :eek:

Don

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Pretty scary stuff Don. Did you scroll down to see what was going on inside the JEEP during the death wobble?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKO-t...eature=related