Market study/New frame options??

[pav8427]

Would anyone out there that is currently considering a new frame for their
64-67 GM A-body or other hotrod of similar size be interested in a different option for a new frame?
Pics show a chassis I have put together over the years for my 65 Chevelle SS.
I'm thinking that if I got enough interest, I would tool up to build something like it to help 'fund' the rest of my project
It would work well for anything with a 115" wheel base/60" track width.
I could shorten/lengthen, but would like to keep the track width so as not to mess up the geometry.
Not trying to 'sell' them yet,just lookin' to see if there would be any interest.
Any input or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you, Doug

[mrmustang]

Looks like a nice clean frame job, exactly what are you using for a front and rear suspension set up?


Bill S.

[pav8427]

Front susp. is based on B-body spindles w/ a c4 Corvette rack doing the turning chores.
Set up for qa1 coil overs on all 4 corners.
Rear suspension is a version of a 4 link w/ PHB.
This one uses all teflon lined heim joints or spherical bearings except at the lower a-arms which use Moly impregnated nylon bushings.
All this is mounted to a chassis that is a 'bolt-in' for 64-67 A-bodies and except for the rear housing,spindles,rack and sway bar is all designed and built by me.

Doug

[pav8427]

Anybody??
Comments,good or bad.

Thanks,Doug

[Itoldyouso]

Ok, you asked. It certainly is a very nice, well done frame, but marketing something like this and actually making a buck at it is something else. Have you figured how much you have in materials and time? I would bet it is pretty substantial. Question is, can you mark that up enough to make a reasonable profit to make it worth your time and effort, and would that figure be something that was competitive with what some existing shops are now charging for a similar product?

We've had people ask us to do frames for them, and recently I sold an extra frame I had on Ebay to get some room in the shop. While the ad ran I had about 7 people ask if we could build a frame for them, and one shop asked if we could build several for them to sell. While it is flattering, the reality is we couldn't charge enough to make even minimum wage for the time we invest. As you probably know from doing your nice frame, it takes a whole lot of time and work to put one of these together. Can you get someone to pay you enough so that you make a REASONABLE profit.

I've looked at this myself to simply help pay for our substantial shop rent every month. Right now it doesn't make us a dime and costs us a whole bunch every month.

Not trying to throw a wet blanket on your idea, but I don't see how small operators like you and me can compete with the big guys who are geared up with the equipment to crank these out in large numbers. You would be competing against people like Morrison who probably buy stamped brackets by the thousands. Just my opinion.

Don

[pav8427]

Thank you,
Yes, I have done the majority of the homework on the materials and any vendor work.(laser,press brake,CNC and tube bending)
I am fortunate to work at a small shop that designs and builds custom one-off machines and is fairly well equipt. The opportunity has presented itself that I am able to use all the resources affiliated with the shop.
Being that it will come with very little overhead, I feel that I would be able to offer these at a reasonable price and yet not loose my shorts.
I am not looking at competing with the big dogs like Morrison, C/E and the like. There are quite a few shops that are out there that are still alive in this 'hobby', and if I did well enough(something like 3-6 chassis')to have fun doing what I like, good.
If not, oh well, I tried.
Again,if there was interest,I could build the jigs and fixtures,put together a few chassis' on commission type basis, then move on. If it got good results, then cross that bridge when I get to it.

Thank you, Doug

[41willys]

Doug, It looks like a very nice chassis and I hope you can get something going with it. A word of caution though. I have several chassis on the road at this time. Some years ago I thought the same as you, sell enough to help keep my own hobby going. I have sat down and tried to analyze what kind of "profit" I have made from them and I can safely say that I never really made money on any of them. The reasons are simple, by the time you warranty your work and pay for your manufacturers liability insurance and then lay awake at night worrying that one of your customers will do something really stupid and hurt themselves or hurt somebody else, you soon find out that there is not enough money to be made to cover you. As to the warratny issue, no matter who you sell your stuff to there will always be the ones who will bug you to death because they don't feel soemthing is quite right. and then the liability issue, I had an insurance agent who was writing my liability rider tell me that the company would no longer cover me with out a safety certificate from a licensed engeneering firm. that's when I quit building chassis altogether. In this litigation happy we have today be very carefull. Just my two cents worth.
John

[nitrowarrior]

I'll never tell a guy how to run his business because the true heart of rodding and racing is the joy and satisfaction of completing a worthy project that works and is functional. Whether a profit is turned or not. My concern is the lack of frame support. Not so much horsepower as a concern, but flexing for smooth ride and longevety, I see a lack of cross member support to achieve this. IMO.

[Dave Severson]

I still build frames for myself and a few select customers, primarily for all the reasons 41willys suggested. Liablility concerns. The insurance, if you can afford it, has ridiculous "attachments". My attorney read through the entire thing and interpreted it to read that yes, you have insurance but if something goes wrong and you get sued you're on your own.... Unfortunately, liability concerns will probably be the main reason a lot of small and big shops prefer to sell components only and not complete frames. I made it over the years by just sheer luck....nothing bad ever happened with one of the cars I built and I never had to go through the hassle of a lawsuit. A know of some shops that did, and it was ugly!!!!! No amount of waivers or disclaimers will limit your liability or release you from the liability. Not fair, just the way life is.

As for the frame itself, well, you asked. I have built similar frames and used the rectangular tubing in line with the front and rear kick ups, them built the perimeter portion of the frame out of either smaller rectangular or round tubing. On the rear suspension, I prefer a triangulated 4 bar setup with the bottom bars in line with the frame and the upper bars angled in then suspended with either coilovers or air bags. Some very fine worksmanship overall. Also, along with Nitro I would like to see some more substantial crossmembers, especially over the rear end housing. The crossmember in front of the rear suspension at the kickup is very substantial... If someone buys one and puts some 600 horse monster in it with a tranny brake, you don't want him complaining to you and other potential customers about frame flex.

There is profit in building these frames, but don't give away the freebies you can do at work... There is a cost incurred even if you are doing it on your own time using the shop's equipment. If the idea does catch on, I doubt the shop you work in will let you run a second shift producing parts for your frame... Always have enough built into the price to cover the incidentals like this.

As for the marketing, I would suggest installing a complete engine and transmission along with a complete brake system and start hitting the shows and handing out cards and pricing information. Remember too, that nothing on it is proprietary, and anyone who wants to copy it will do so.... If you can make an arrangement with a local body shop or builder, consider donating one of your frames to build a first rate show car and push the heck out of it to every car mag you can find the address for.

[pav8427]

Yes,the liability issue has been addressed briefly.
Any thoughts on offering this in semi-kit form.
Would that somewhat get around the cost of insurance,disclaimers etc. etc.?
Basically offer it as one hobbiest to another,not necessarily operate as a
business entity.

Thank you,Doug

[Dave Severson]

Yes,the liability issue has been addressed briefly.
Any thoughts on offering this in semi-kit form.
Would that somewhat get around the cost of insurance,disclaimers etc. etc.?
Basically offer it as one hobbiest to another,not necessarily operate as a
business entity.

Thank you,Doug

Still does not preclude the liability issues. Like I said, I've been building chassis, complete cars, suspension mods for many years. Guess I've been lucky. The one thing you would want to check into is as a partial chassis, or in package form, the liability goes to the end user or final assembler. Then all you have to worry about is individual components that you've built. If a control arm breaks, then my understanding is whoever built the control arm is liable.

The whole mess is nothing but a bucket of worms!!! I guess if somebody wants to sue ya, they can find something to sue you about. I'm really fussy about who I do work for. If you're buying someone else's control arms, spindles, etc. it's probably not an issue. I doubt seriously if the frame itself would break, so the liability would go to the company who made the actual component that failed. Of course, if you have a very shrewd lawyer write up your incorporation papers, then you have other means of protecting yourself.....

I'd like to think that Hot Rodders wouldn't sue another Hot Rodder...but that probably isn't true anymore with all the yuppies and poser's getting into Hot Rods... I guess, build a product you are comfortable selling, be a bit selective in your cleintele, and just go for it.... This is all stuff to consider, but certainly nothing to say you can't do what you want!!!