Actually, she left me. Something about some drummer in some little rock band.:(:D
Don
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Actually, she left me. Something about some drummer in some little rock band.:(:D
Don
Ah the tattoo type that shoots home videos! :eek::LOL: Maybe we should photoshop her into the Black T just for old time sake!:LOL:
The night we talked about your problems with the powder, I have to say it just made me, and my wife SICK!
As someone who has been screwed by a powder coater, then becoming a powder coater and fixing my own screw ups, I know first hand that both suck big time.
I think there is nothing worse than looking at a customer and trying to fix a problem, as a former customer (of powder coating) that has delt with b.s. I know how the customer feels, our old powder coater would do our parts when he felt like it, poor quality, to top it off he did not really even care.
So we sold a few cars (We started off as a fiberglass car dealer/builder) and bought a Powder coating set up strictly to handle items for our products. Next thing you know we have a few successes, word of mouth, and 5 yr's later we have a nice small powder coating company, and enjoy helping people realize their dreams, even if we are now just a small part of that.
I really wish you guys were in Ohio, you are like a dream customer, you followed all the advice I shared, and did a wonderful job of filling, and sanding everything by the looks of the pictures.
I really hate to hear of someone having a bad experience with powder, when done correctly it look beautiful, same as painting (just a little harder to work with in terms of body work.... as you know)
Didn't mean to go on, and on... I'm a blabber mouth sometimes
Ultimately I am sorry to hear about your bad experience, and hope you get her fixed, and on the road soon!!!
Josh
Yeah, I wish your shop were closer too. :) Well at least the frame is back from the shop and they did a great job of sandblasting all the powder coating off. That things been blasted so many times it should be getting smoother and smoother. :)
I think we are going to the shop today and DA it and get it ready to deliver to the body shop for paint. We can also start evaluating what parts need taken back for complete stripping and which ones we can simply peel and blow the clear off of. Dan fooled around with a couple of parts the other night and got the clear off, the black actually looks pretty good under it. What surprised me was how thick the clear it, the stuff looks just about like shrink wrap new items come packed in. Is it supposed to be that thick?
On thing that will have to come apart for complete blasting is the rear end assembly. For one thing they masked off too big a section where the pumpkin goes and some bare metal shows, so it looks like we will be pulling that thing apart today too. We had a sandblaster in at work the other day doing a boat bottom and I told him we were having powder coating blasted back off. He said he doesn't envy the guy doing it, takes a lot of time and concentrated blasting to break through. Hope the powder coater remembers this the next time and doesn't ever want to go through it again.
Don
yeah, powder clear build usually about 2-4 mils thick (closer to 2 mils is better), which is great when it adheres to the base coat, as it has a deep European luster, it's great!
Yeah, I have a empty 3rd member we use to mask ford rears, works great to eliminate poor masking.
Sadly I have learned some of these lessons the coater you used the same way, fortunately not at the magnitude they did.
Yes we media clean, and blasting powder SUCKS!!!!
Josh
Josh, we were going to have him powder coat almost all the way down on the gasket surface where the pumpkin goes so we get black all the way. Any harm in doing that, will gasket sealer seal? I figured we could scuff it a little if needed around the gasket only.
Hehe, he had one of his guys in the blast booth two straight days trying to get ours off, you bet it is tough.:p
Don
Sorry, I should have explained more.
I mask the rear end, the lay the third member, run my razor around the edge, remove the third member, and free hand about 1/4-1/2" smaller to make sure there is no visual bare spots.
I have coated, and reassembled maybe 20 or so ford 9", and 8" and never had any leaks, using a gasket only not liquid type (to messy looking for my taste)
with blasting you can only blast it one coat at a time, or you will cause uneven spots on the metal. Our media blast system will remove the powder, and the metal at the same rate, have to be very careful!
Josh
Josh, the day I sat in my car watching the guy blast on his frame he was really poring the coal to it, so I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't blast a lot of metal away too. That is my fear, and it is going to take a pretty good coat of filler all over it to get it smooth, I'm afraid.
Tonight we concentrated on getting the parts all separated and seeing which ones needed recoating and which ones we could simply take the air nozzle to and blast off the clear. We were able to salvage a few of the parts, like the front backing plates and the springs because the clear came right off and left a nice smooth black surface underneath. Then we disassembled the rear end and are taking that, the backing plates, and a bunch of other parts back tomorrow am and have a talk with them. They owe us big time, we are probably going to eat a lot of money we already spent for stuff that got blasted off and body shop bills to get it sanded. All in all he is probably out $ 1000 by the time you factor in all the dremels, sanding supplies, etc that we had to buy to get the thing straight enough for the first go round. He was also charged extra for the clear coat and that is now sitting on our garage floor, in pieces. :mad: I is also setting us back a month or more.
But......................it would have been a lot worse if we discovered the problem later after the car was assembled. That would have been VERY bad. We are still on the fence as to powder coat or have the frame painted. If the powder coater can find someone to sand the Tiger Drylac smooth, I'll order some more and let them have at it. Our body shop guy never wants to see it again.
Don
I have been watching this drama unfold with great interest.:HMMM: I have never had anything powder coated yet, but it has interested me for a long time and we have two local powder coaters here that both have good reputations. After watching what you guys are going through, however, I think I will limit any future powder coating to pieces that can be unbolted. I have been skeptical of powder coating a frame to start with because if I needed to add anything later on (like a bracket or a gusset somewhere) I want to be able to spot in the finish. Your ordeal has given me additional reinforcement that I will keep on painting my frames...:rolleyes:
I'm not a powder coat guy so no axe to grind, but this doesn't look like an inherent problem with powder coating, but with process. Pops mentioned it in one of his earlier posts, it's very likely the coater didn't follow proper procedure between the base (color) coat and the clear top coat applications and therefore the two materials didn't chemically "crosslink". And since the base coat is so smooth, thus shiny, there's no chance for a mechanical bond. I know paints better. If any of you have painted epoxy primer/sealer for instance, the instructions state you need to top coat it within X amount of time or you'll have to scuff it so that the top coat has the irregularities caused by the scuffing to "hang onto". The base needs to be less than fully "cured" or dried so that the chemicals in each layer are still active enough to bond with one another to form a durable coating. I think the real lesson to learn here is who does the work is at least as important as what the material is.
Don---The wife and I just got back from a holiday in the Carribean, and I checked this thread expecting to see Dans car beautifully finished. Instead, what a disaster!!! Please tell Dan how sorry I am for both him and you. I know the work you fellows have put into the roadster pickup, and this is a terrible thing to have happen. ------Brian
Just like anything else, powder applied properly is a great product, applied incorrectly is a disaster, same as paint.
major difference is stripping powder to fix a problem is alot more of a task than removing paint.
The proper steps would be, just to clarify would be
1) media blast, or sand the frame down to bare clean metal
2) Iron Phosphate wash to further remove any left over contaminate, or oils.
3) apply the Powder Coat filler product, the cure in oven, or at room temp 24-48 hrs
4) sand your ass off
5) apply a second coat if needed, repeat step 3
6) sand your ass off some more
7) clean off sanding dust, sand any blush rust away
8) clean all other contaminates off with solvents, and tack rags
9) Apply primer coat and cure for 1/2 the cure cycle
10) block the entire frame again
11) repeat steps 7 and 8
12) apply color coat, cure for 1/2 cure cycle
13) let cool completely, and apply clear, then full cure cycle in oven
Ok, now the reason you only run them for a 1/2 cure cycle between coats is to promote proper inter coat adhesion.
The way to do this is, while in the oven the powder melts, and for a brief period liquefies. It is a balancing act of curing the first coat of powder
enough so the 2 colors do not liquefy at the same time and bleed into one another, and that the first coat is still tacky enough for the second coat to adhere to.
So
the first coat is applied to "flowed out"(which means is no longer liquid, but still ply-able) then the second coat is applied, and flows out on to the first coat, and they cross-link or "melt" together, and so on.
I have done 5 coats, sent it off to PPG's lab for testing, and had good inter coat adhesion between all coats, and not over cured the powder.
Alot of places CLAIM to be custom powder coaters, or are production shops that do not know how to do custom, and do a substandard job.... then conversations like this start
You can leave powder on for 9 days (maybe longer, just the longest I've done it) in it's powder form, then put it in the oven, and have it cure just fine, so sitting over night is no problem.
In fact when we do car body's sometimes it takes a week from the time we apply the first coat, until the last coat.
Hope this info is helpful
This tale of woe has to be as boring for everyone as it is a pain in the butt for us. I have to say the problem is not the process itself, but the way our particular powder coater did it...........very simply, they screwed up. The general consensus from everyone, including Josh on here, is that they cooked the black too long for the next coat of clear to melt into it. We actually love the way the parts look now that we have blown the clear off of some of them, we couldn't have painted them to look as good. And no question about durability.........the finish is really tough.
Last night Dan and I sat and looked at the frame and weighed all the options.......painting vs getting it powder coated again. We have finally decided that the powder coating is what we need to do on it because of the way it sucked into all the little nooks and crannies. No painter could get the kind of coverage we saw from the powder coating. It went into every little spot and stuck like glue.............except for the clear.:rolleyes:
Today I ordered 3 more kits of Tiger Drylac EPO strong, and just have to find someone to sand it for us after we apply it to the entire frame surface. We are going to put this back on the powder coater to solve for us because we already paid the bodyshop once to do it, now it is their turn to put us back where we were before their screwup. Hate to be that way, but we have eaten enough money in this deal already, and we didn't so anything wrong.
Thanks for all the concern all of you have expressed, and I know Dan appreciates it too. I think the four years and a million hours he has invested in this car is starting to wear on him. The fun has left, and he realizes how much money he has spent in those four years, with no running car to show for it. But that will all go away when he finally gets to drive it for the first time.
We didn't get to meet with them this morining, but have a 7:30 appointment to sit down with them tomorrow. I kept a big plastic bag of the clear coating in case I have to go see Judge Judy. :D
Don
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itoldyouso
I can see her yelling now:LOL:
yes, have them do the filling, and sanding... that will definitely teach them:eek::eek:
sadly I have been on the have to fix a screw up like that side... SUCKS!!!
I like the way you guys have handled this. I think it is great that your giving them a second chance. Are you guys skipping the clear second time round? Boy what a sad course of events for all. Still I'm glad your sticking with the powder coat, from the frames I've seen powdered they looked great including Ken's. Next time I see him I better remember to ask for a ride!:LOL: Hope this round is the last round!
We've decided no more clear coat Steve. It does have some advantages such as UV protection, depth, etc. but we won't trust our PC to do the job that way again. They seem fine with doing the regular steps, but dropped the ball on that phase.
We have our meeting with them this morning to see what they can do to help with the smoothing part of the filler on the frame. I ran into my old boss Saturday at a car show Don and I went to, he owned the body shop I worked at. He sold the business a few years ago, but I am going to ask him if he knows any shop that could take the frame in and sand it for us. He keeps in contact with that business, so he should know someone. Gonna call him today.
Don
Don, I'm still glad to meet you half way and pick up the frame and take it to Josh (streetwerkz).
BradC
We haven't ever had any luck with clear coating. If it's getting any sunlight it will change colors. It doesn't seem that black does it as much as the other colors but it still looses it's original brightness. We don't use it.
Ken
Thanks Brad. Nice offer. I think we worked it out with them in this morning's meeting. We are going to apply the filler and they are going to have it sanded smooth in house, then we inspect it and if it is ok they coat it for us.
Ken, we share your feelings about the clear. Why we didn't quit with the black we will never know.......but it sounded soooooo good. Today in that meeting he is still trying to blame it on a defective batch of clear powder. He said he had one more job after ours that peeled too, and he swears he personally watched the entire process for correct bake times, etc. One thing that concerned me was when I asked him if he used the same brand products for base and clear and he said no. My experience is you stick with one system all the way through for compatiblilty and no questions later.
We left a bunch of parts with him today like the rear axle assembly etc, so well see how they look when done.
Don
Don,
I'm glad his is working with you, but honestly I would go by and check anything else he sand blast for you before he paints it. Just to have a peak at the clean parts. Don't ask, I have my reasons! :D
Ken
Great minds think alike Ken. :D I had the same thoughts that he might just blow off the clear and say "Ok, we did them all over and they are done." For that reason we changed a couple of things, like we are going to have them powder coat even the gasket surface on the rear housing where the pumpkin goes. They had masked it off previously, and in a way that was bigger than the gasket, so there was a bare area. We told them to not mask now.
We also delivered the parts we dropped off today right to the sandblast booth, which is removed from the main building. The guy was starting to work on them as we left, so at least those will get down to bare metal. Finally, we are very intimate with every part that we dropped off and will probably be able to recognize that it is new coating. There were some little flaws we noted.
Shame you have to think that way, but we have all been burned a few times and are less trusting that we once were.
Don
It is ashame. I'm more concerned that they completely clean the part of all powder coating. If not, you really won't know you still have a problem till later.
Ken
Ken, I sorta, kinda, almost trust them on that phase. I have to admit they took two full days and got every speck of PC off of the frame, even in spots you can't see. I want to keep them in the good guys column until proven otherwise, the owner seems very sincere and hasn't blown us off as I feared he might in the beginning. Trouble is, here in Ft Myers we aren't flooded with similar businesses, and he is the biggest. They also do a bunch of the local motorcycle shops, so custom stuff should be no mystery to them.
If we could have felt comfortable that a painter could duplicate the even coverage in spots that are fairly inaccessible, we would have gone that route in a heartbeat. But sitting there kicking it around the other night that was the one thing that we did like about the PC, it was really into every tiny spot, so rust should never be an issue. That swayed Dan's final decision to give the PC one more shot.
Don
Don
You have no idea how relieved I am you got everything worked out, and under way.
I have felt horrible for offering any advice after learning about your problems.
While I know the process is sound, like any other mistakes can be made and cause problems.
I cant wait to see this car on the road, she'll be beautiful be for long
Josh
No Josh, you and Ken and the other guys who gave advice were spot on. Looking at the front backing plates the other night after blowing the clear off it was apparent this is a terrific process. The finish is tough, pretty, and smooth. Plus I still like the aspect of just dropping stuff off and picking it up later, all done. :D
Please understand guys that we REALLY appreciate all the feedback, both for and against PC. All of the input helped us to make a better decision than if we had just gone into it blind. The help and nice words all of you posted after the little fiasco shows how you all really care about what happens to another person........for that we also thank each of you.
Putting this into perspective, it's just a bump in the road to building a car. I feel for Dan because he has poured hours and hours of work and a bunch of money into this car so far, and I know it is disheartening for him. But this problem will pass and will be somewhat forgotten later on. Don went through his share of problems when we got his T together..........it ate that valve part way to Turkey Run, the new transmission went south after a few miles, he had death wobble we had to cure, and finally that steering arm that snapped in half. But he took it in stride and simply put a cover over the car until he felt like fixing the problems. I know he was hurt by all that, but now he drives it all over the place and gains confidence in it more every time he uses it. Dan will get through this too, and I am doing everything I can to help him with that process.
Nobody ever said this stuff was easy.:D
Don
That is for sure. It probably is also why it is so rewarding in the end. These cars take blood out of us, literally! But when they're done, it's the individual details that were the biggest pain, that usually shine most later. Hang in there, you and your son's are fine examples of truer rodders!Quote:
Originally Posted by Itoldyouso
Well, as long as you blame Ken, and not me I'm ok with that:D
Seriously tho
you and stovens are correct, if it was easy we wouldn't love em when their done
Don---Whats happening with this saga? Its been a while since your last post----this does not bode well-----Brian
Well Brian, it's been slow going. We dropped off all those other parts at the PC a while ago, and Friday they told me they should be done tomorrow or Tuesday. As for the frame, it came back from them all blasted clean, and Dan worked on it late last night and got the metal nice and shiny again. Tonight we went over and put another skim coat of that Tiger Drylac filler all over it, which should take a couple of days to cure.
Tomorrow I am going to start calling some local body shops to find one that will sand it smooth for us. The one I had used is disappointing me right now because I have left several messages and no return call. That's ok because he just screwed himself out of also painting the cab and bed..........I'm done with him. With all the body shops laying people off because people are using the money they get from insurance companies to live on rather than get their cars fixed, you would think there would be someone hungry for some business. :confused::confused:
Dan has about had it with this phase of the job, and I can't blame him. Not only is some good money down the drain but we are back where we were over a month ago. But once it's back in black most of this fiasco will probably be forgotten.
Thanks for asking.
Don
I thought the powder coater said they would sand the filler for you??
They did offer to do it, but we talked it over and don't feel they can get it as smooth as a bodyman can. We needed someone who understands how to fair in fillers and will get it right. If it costs a little more this way it will be worth it in the end we hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by 35fordcoupe
I did find a shop today who will do it for us. He is a restoration shop so he should be able to do what we want done. I am supposed to meet with him tomorrow to drop it off. I'm as anxious as Dan because all my projects are on hold too until we get this thing further along.
Don
good news!!
Can't wait to see this project back on track.
good luck tomorrow with the body shop
It's a good thing we have a sense of humor about this powder coating thing because it keeps getting stranger all the time. Yesterday Dan picked up all the parts we had taken back to be sandblasted and recoated, and last night he and I went to the shop and unwrapped the rear axle housing. When we met with the owner a couple of weeks ago the one thing we stressed over and over again was to NOT mask off the gasket area where the pumpkin goes. They had masked it off, and when we installed the gasket a big section of bare steel was left around the gasket. We must have told him 4 times to coat the entire rear housing and NOT mask it off. Soooooooooo, when we unwrapped it last night we found they had not only masked it off again, but the bare area was even bigger than the first time! :mad:
This morning I was back at their door with the housing and I was not in the best mood I have ever been in. At 1 PM they called to tell me they had it redone, and that I could come pick it up. My fear is that they simply reshot that area, and if so I am going to reject it once again. We paid good money for a good job, not a retouch. I'll find out tomorrow morning when I go there again. :mad:
Also, we decided to not use the body shop I had talked to for the sanding on the frame. I stopped by their shop, and it wasn't the most professional place I have ever seen. I could just see us chasing them for a couple of months to get our frame back. What we did do was Dan started sanding it himself last night, and it went much better this time. Not sure what was up with the first batch of Drylac filler we used, but this time it sands much easier and also applied much easier. This time I used one of those paddlewheel mixing deals that goes on an electric drill, and I mixed the heck out of it, almost whipping it like butter. It spread very easily, and is sanding out much better. Dan got the entire front half of the frame done last night, and another night should get the back half done.
Who would have ever thought that something that should have been so easy would become such a PIA? :( However, living in SW Florida we have become accustomed to these sorts of problems from just about every business we have ever dealt with.
Don
Don,
What a shame and waste of time. I certainly can see your frustration, I think you made the right call on the body shop. If you got bad vibes from your visit go with your gut!
Ken
You've hit the nail on the head Ken, what a waste of time the past two months have been, messing around trying to get these parts coated. This thing is starting to get old at this point. As for the body shop, something just told me they were going to add to our frustrations, and about now Dan is not exactly thinking hot rodding is the most relaxing hobby in the world anyway.:rolleyes:
Don
Too bad Don. I hope that someday this episode is a memory that's mostly forgotten. This type of thing is why my current coupe looks rough right now. Low stress. My last project was so detailed, tedious, and time consuming that I burnt out on it. I'm having fun with my car right now. I'll take it apart and paint it later though. I do want it to look nice someday.
Hey atleast billetproof is in a couple of days!!! just take a deep breath and enjoy the sights, and hopefully this bump will seem like a bad dream!
Im sure the stress is overwhelming right now, but when it`s finally over the rewards will be worth it!! Just hang in there guys.
Poor Dan. I know his frustration level has to be at the "explode" level.:mad::whacked: I'm sure he has probably had thoughts about where he is now and where he would have been if he had kept the first chassis & body... Tell him to hang in there; some frustration is almost always part of the process (though usually not this much). I know I have said many times that in my next life I am going to be a stamp collector and not going to have anythig to do with $%*^#@*$ dirty old cars!:HMMM::rolleyes::LOL::LOL:
Thanks guys. Oh yeah Bill, your Deuce is just soooooooo rough. :rolleyes::D They should all be so rough, that's why everyone who sees it falls in love with it.............me included.:)
John, Billetproof..........YES!! We are ready to go. Don has to play, but Dan and I are coming. Not bringing my T though because we just want to relax and do the spectator thing and get time to see some old friends and drink a few cold ones. Really looking forward to it.
Jim: The way things have been going with this thing, even stamp collecting looks good. I keep telling him to chill and just get the darned thing running, but since it has been his obsession for the past 4 years he can't seem to do that. I guess it's like your first kid..........you sweat every little scratch or sniffle they get, then the second one comes along and you lay back a little more.
Oh, I've finally gotten a little time to start playing with a little project of mine while he has been there sanding away on his. I started to notice that the 29 roadster pickup body he passed down to me looked very much like it would fit on the chassis I had waiting for the 39 Dodge truck. So the other night he and I lifted it onto that frame and it fit like it was made for it. It ends up looking like a 50's drag car with the moon tank up front and the tripower Olds engine. Just a few tweaks and everything will fit.
My plan for this one is maybe a brushed on paint job, some door art (Dons Speed Shop :D), lots of old speed decals, and generally early American rat. Want it to look like something I would have owned 50 years ago if I had the ability. I am using a chrome model a grille shell with no radiator, that will still be hidden in the bed. I like the looks of it and as soon as I can drag it out of it's hiding spot I'll shoot some pictures.
Don
Don, I would go with (3 D's Speed Shop) or (Don's Salvage Company).....LOL
BradC