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Josh, we were going to have him powder coat almost all the way down on the gasket surface where the pumpkin goes so we get black all the way. Any harm in doing that, will gasket sealer seal? I figured we could scuff it a little if needed around the gasket only.
Hehe, he had one of his guys in the blast booth two straight days trying to get ours off, you bet it is tough.:p
Don
Sorry, I should have explained more.
I mask the rear end, the lay the third member, run my razor around the edge, remove the third member, and free hand about 1/4-1/2" smaller to make sure there is no visual bare spots.
I have coated, and reassembled maybe 20 or so ford 9", and 8" and never had any leaks, using a gasket only not liquid type (to messy looking for my taste)
with blasting you can only blast it one coat at a time, or you will cause uneven spots on the metal. Our media blast system will remove the powder, and the metal at the same rate, have to be very careful!
Josh
Josh, the day I sat in my car watching the guy blast on his frame he was really poring the coal to it, so I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't blast a lot of metal away too. That is my fear, and it is going to take a pretty good coat of filler all over it to get it smooth, I'm afraid.
Tonight we concentrated on getting the parts all separated and seeing which ones needed recoating and which ones we could simply take the air nozzle to and blast off the clear. We were able to salvage a few of the parts, like the front backing plates and the springs because the clear came right off and left a nice smooth black surface underneath. Then we disassembled the rear end and are taking that, the backing plates, and a bunch of other parts back tomorrow am and have a talk with them. They owe us big time, we are probably going to eat a lot of money we already spent for stuff that got blasted off and body shop bills to get it sanded. All in all he is probably out $ 1000 by the time you factor in all the dremels, sanding supplies, etc that we had to buy to get the thing straight enough for the first go round. He was also charged extra for the clear coat and that is now sitting on our garage floor, in pieces. :mad: I is also setting us back a month or more.
But......................it would have been a lot worse if we discovered the problem later after the car was assembled. That would have been VERY bad. We are still on the fence as to powder coat or have the frame painted. If the powder coater can find someone to sand the Tiger Drylac smooth, I'll order some more and let them have at it. Our body shop guy never wants to see it again.
Don
I have been watching this drama unfold with great interest.:HMMM: I have never had anything powder coated yet, but it has interested me for a long time and we have two local powder coaters here that both have good reputations. After watching what you guys are going through, however, I think I will limit any future powder coating to pieces that can be unbolted. I have been skeptical of powder coating a frame to start with because if I needed to add anything later on (like a bracket or a gusset somewhere) I want to be able to spot in the finish. Your ordeal has given me additional reinforcement that I will keep on painting my frames...:rolleyes:
I'm not a powder coat guy so no axe to grind, but this doesn't look like an inherent problem with powder coating, but with process. Pops mentioned it in one of his earlier posts, it's very likely the coater didn't follow proper procedure between the base (color) coat and the clear top coat applications and therefore the two materials didn't chemically "crosslink". And since the base coat is so smooth, thus shiny, there's no chance for a mechanical bond. I know paints better. If any of you have painted epoxy primer/sealer for instance, the instructions state you need to top coat it within X amount of time or you'll have to scuff it so that the top coat has the irregularities caused by the scuffing to "hang onto". The base needs to be less than fully "cured" or dried so that the chemicals in each layer are still active enough to bond with one another to form a durable coating. I think the real lesson to learn here is who does the work is at least as important as what the material is.
Don---The wife and I just got back from a holiday in the Carribean, and I checked this thread expecting to see Dans car beautifully finished. Instead, what a disaster!!! Please tell Dan how sorry I am for both him and you. I know the work you fellows have put into the roadster pickup, and this is a terrible thing to have happen. ------Brian
Just like anything else, powder applied properly is a great product, applied incorrectly is a disaster, same as paint.
major difference is stripping powder to fix a problem is alot more of a task than removing paint.
The proper steps would be, just to clarify would be
1) media blast, or sand the frame down to bare clean metal
2) Iron Phosphate wash to further remove any left over contaminate, or oils.
3) apply the Powder Coat filler product, the cure in oven, or at room temp 24-48 hrs
4) sand your ass off
5) apply a second coat if needed, repeat step 3
6) sand your ass off some more
7) clean off sanding dust, sand any blush rust away
8) clean all other contaminates off with solvents, and tack rags
9) Apply primer coat and cure for 1/2 the cure cycle
10) block the entire frame again
11) repeat steps 7 and 8
12) apply color coat, cure for 1/2 cure cycle
13) let cool completely, and apply clear, then full cure cycle in oven
Ok, now the reason you only run them for a 1/2 cure cycle between coats is to promote proper inter coat adhesion.
The way to do this is, while in the oven the powder melts, and for a brief period liquefies. It is a balancing act of curing the first coat of powder
enough so the 2 colors do not liquefy at the same time and bleed into one another, and that the first coat is still tacky enough for the second coat to adhere to.
So
the first coat is applied to "flowed out"(which means is no longer liquid, but still ply-able) then the second coat is applied, and flows out on to the first coat, and they cross-link or "melt" together, and so on.
I have done 5 coats, sent it off to PPG's lab for testing, and had good inter coat adhesion between all coats, and not over cured the powder.
Alot of places CLAIM to be custom powder coaters, or are production shops that do not know how to do custom, and do a substandard job.... then conversations like this start
You can leave powder on for 9 days (maybe longer, just the longest I've done it) in it's powder form, then put it in the oven, and have it cure just fine, so sitting over night is no problem.
In fact when we do car body's sometimes it takes a week from the time we apply the first coat, until the last coat.
Hope this info is helpful
This tale of woe has to be as boring for everyone as it is a pain in the butt for us. I have to say the problem is not the process itself, but the way our particular powder coater did it...........very simply, they screwed up. The general consensus from everyone, including Josh on here, is that they cooked the black too long for the next coat of clear to melt into it. We actually love the way the parts look now that we have blown the clear off of some of them, we couldn't have painted them to look as good. And no question about durability.........the finish is really tough.
Last night Dan and I sat and looked at the frame and weighed all the options.......painting vs getting it powder coated again. We have finally decided that the powder coating is what we need to do on it because of the way it sucked into all the little nooks and crannies. No painter could get the kind of coverage we saw from the powder coating. It went into every little spot and stuck like glue.............except for the clear.:rolleyes:
Today I ordered 3 more kits of Tiger Drylac EPO strong, and just have to find someone to sand it for us after we apply it to the entire frame surface. We are going to put this back on the powder coater to solve for us because we already paid the bodyshop once to do it, now it is their turn to put us back where we were before their screwup. Hate to be that way, but we have eaten enough money in this deal already, and we didn't so anything wrong.
Thanks for all the concern all of you have expressed, and I know Dan appreciates it too. I think the four years and a million hours he has invested in this car is starting to wear on him. The fun has left, and he realizes how much money he has spent in those four years, with no running car to show for it. But that will all go away when he finally gets to drive it for the first time.
We didn't get to meet with them this morining, but have a 7:30 appointment to sit down with them tomorrow. I kept a big plastic bag of the clear coating in case I have to go see Judge Judy. :D
Don
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itoldyouso
I can see her yelling now:LOL:
yes, have them do the filling, and sanding... that will definitely teach them:eek::eek:
sadly I have been on the have to fix a screw up like that side... SUCKS!!!
I like the way you guys have handled this. I think it is great that your giving them a second chance. Are you guys skipping the clear second time round? Boy what a sad course of events for all. Still I'm glad your sticking with the powder coat, from the frames I've seen powdered they looked great including Ken's. Next time I see him I better remember to ask for a ride!:LOL: Hope this round is the last round!
We've decided no more clear coat Steve. It does have some advantages such as UV protection, depth, etc. but we won't trust our PC to do the job that way again. They seem fine with doing the regular steps, but dropped the ball on that phase.
We have our meeting with them this morning to see what they can do to help with the smoothing part of the filler on the frame. I ran into my old boss Saturday at a car show Don and I went to, he owned the body shop I worked at. He sold the business a few years ago, but I am going to ask him if he knows any shop that could take the frame in and sand it for us. He keeps in contact with that business, so he should know someone. Gonna call him today.
Don
Don, I'm still glad to meet you half way and pick up the frame and take it to Josh (streetwerkz).
BradC
We haven't ever had any luck with clear coating. If it's getting any sunlight it will change colors. It doesn't seem that black does it as much as the other colors but it still looses it's original brightness. We don't use it.
Ken
Thanks Brad. Nice offer. I think we worked it out with them in this morning's meeting. We are going to apply the filler and they are going to have it sanded smooth in house, then we inspect it and if it is ok they coat it for us.
Ken, we share your feelings about the clear. Why we didn't quit with the black we will never know.......but it sounded soooooo good. Today in that meeting he is still trying to blame it on a defective batch of clear powder. He said he had one more job after ours that peeled too, and he swears he personally watched the entire process for correct bake times, etc. One thing that concerned me was when I asked him if he used the same brand products for base and clear and he said no. My experience is you stick with one system all the way through for compatiblilty and no questions later.
We left a bunch of parts with him today like the rear axle assembly etc, so well see how they look when done.
Don
Don,
I'm glad his is working with you, but honestly I would go by and check anything else he sand blast for you before he paints it. Just to have a peak at the clean parts. Don't ask, I have my reasons! :D
Ken