Change in trends?

A couple years ago my street rod business slowed way down, mostly due to the recent trend for flat black and striping. Same thing with bikers building flat black bobbers.

Due to the economy, I did not expect this to change for a while, and I've been doing more muscle cars and a mix of this 'n that.

Recently I have had more upscale rod builders calling about high end repaints and graphics. Right now I have a half dozen who have commited to work. My question is....Are any of you other painters having the same experience, or is it just regional?

I'm a "shiney rod guy", and am anxious to see the tradition for beautiful cars continue...and I figured it would come back eventually, but I am a little surprised to get hit so hard. I am afraid to assume this is a change that is beginning nationally, and suspect it is temporary, but what do you painters think? Is it just me?

I think flat black sucks...Not much more to say about it. whenever I see flat black I assume it's hiding a piece of crap..Paint makes the car.

I also think that the flat black crowd are doing what Bob predicted a few years back and realizing that cars had paint back in the day, also there build knowledge has increased so now they are building better quality fit and finish cars.

Back when flat black was the cool thing most thought purpose built cars were uncool and guys like Troy t and foose were uncool, now you have "cool" guys like Jimmy Shine building cars to compete for national awards, and all of a sudden it`s ok to build a nice shiny car.

I guess with higher quality traditional cars and flats becoming uncool the money guys that were chasing the jalopy dream are now going back to where they started. Im glad bussiness is good for you.

I agree with what you guys are saying, and will ad that as some of you have said in the past ....as a guys budget goes up, his desire to build a flat finished "vintage car" seems to go down.

Still, I wonder if any of you "hired guns" are seeing an increase in business?

Hey i just sprayed someones car, does that count?

Sure! ...but was it shiney or flat black??? :-)

I'm just tryin' to see where things might be going. I hate doing restorations! If you did your job right, the car looks like it was never repainted! {:-(

Mines shiney - but becoming flat black. Paint problems and rust repair, Its on the road, no money to buy paint ( Have the epoxy) So its got spots. Flat black looks cool on a few cars- and now there are too many , is been way over done. I will keep working on mine till it is all primer(not flat top coat) then someday make it shiney again

I know a lot of guys who went to flat because prices on quality paint jobs have driven them out of reach for most. I know some guys who had Cobra paint jobs done recently with no body work involved which ran over $7 thousand. That's a lot of money for an uncomplicated body. They got stuck 'cause you definately don't want a flat black Cobra, but if I've got a rod which will look good either way, I'm saving myself a bunch of bucks.

It is gun metal metalic, and let me tell you, i have a whole new respect for what you do, cause it whooped me pretty good!

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Originally Posted by Mastiff107

I know a lot of guys who went to flat because prices on quality paint jobs have driven them out of reach for most. I know some guys who had Cobra paint jobs done recently with no body work involved which ran over $7 thousand. That's a lot of money for an uncomplicated body. They got stuck 'cause you definately don't want a flat black Cobra, but if I've got a rod which will look good either way, I'm saving myself a bunch of bucks.

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That's true....and I have to laugh because I could not afford some of the jobs I'm asked to do! This has never been a cheap hobby, and never will. A person's best way to save is to do as much as he can himself, and save the labor cost! I've been involved in either my own stuff, or customer cars, since 1965. Today, a much larger number of builders hire out most of the work. That is neither right or wrong. It's just the way it has changed....but it effects the average cost of a nice car a lot.

By the way, $7000 is cheap for some types of jobs, but that is when the quality of the finish is more important. I see production shops who still will paint cars for $250. I always keep a coupon here for those who want to make price the only issue.

My question was not meant to decide why, or which is best, or the reason builders choose one or the other. I was just curious whether other painters were also finding that the number of builders choosing shiney paint is rising?

Well, as many of you know, I'm very opinionated about cars and things with wheels (you all know of course that I invented the wheel just so I could race)

I've had cars featured in all kinds of magazines including recently Rodder's Journal, hard cover books, front covers of specialty book cataloques, models made of them,best appearing at major races----

I generally will divide things down to there most common denominator----

Do it yourselfers

The one thing that will always remain constant.....people want a concours paint job at a scuff and shoot price!!!!!! and if you're stupid enough to do it "their way" and it turns out like pooh-pooh, then the shop gets the bad mouth.

Quality body work and paint is very, very labor intensive, and material costs just keep going up........ I know of many people who couldn't afford the paint job they wanted and instead of copping out to the flat black stuff, they learned to do the majority of the body work themselves, hired done what they couldn't handle, and ended up with a very nice paint job.... Many folks right here on CHR have done 100% of their own work and the paint and ended up with an excellent job!!!!! It can be done if you are willing to do the extra work and learn from an experienced body man.....

The best thing I see about folks going back to shiny paint, is that I'll no longer have to listen to some clown in his 20's tell me how things were done in the 60's!!!!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL:

Don't you mean "How they were done in the late '40s...right after WW2"? :-)

Speaking of change...Tucson seems to be producing more and more blown street rods. Is that a trend in other places?

Physical problems would be hard to overcome.....unless you have some nephews or neighborhood kids who want to be involved! ...or a hard working spouse. (Okay. Forget that idea.) ...then you just oversee the work. :-)~

Interesting question Jay, I do thinkthat we may have seen the flat/suede pretty much run it's course and were pretty much waiting to see what the next big trend to hit is.

As far as blowers, down here that one that seems to have kind of run it's course too....but I am hearing of a couple of cars being put together with the certrifical super chargers rather than the 71 based units.

Speaking of paint I should have the little 84 El Camino I picked up in paint by the end of the week and as mentioned materials haven't gone down.

This is the one I picked up to put a motor in and make a few bucks on, not the one I'm putting a Caddy engine in. (Of course the wife just came out to look at "HER new truck".... I guess sh'e planning on "test driving" it for a while for me. :rolleyes: )

It's funny hotrodpaint
I think there are two issues going on! One flat paint trend, and two the ever ongoing issue of expense. Nobody who is struggling to build a rod wants to pay 5k-30k to paint it, yet your right they want to show it and need a high end look. Most of the guys I've talked to have limited funds, so they are doing what I'm going back and forth on, and what Dave said. Do as much body work as you can, and then take it to the pro's to do the stuff you can't. I met one guy who did all the prep and sprayed the interior, door rails and jams, etc. But had the outside done by Maico, paying extra for color sanding, and his own paint. His came out great, but I know what you mean. If it doesn't meet our standards we bitch, yet it is our own faults!:confused:
I think some people go ratrod for tradition, or what they believe was traditional, while others do it because of impatience, poor mechanical abilities and no budget. There are a few death traps around here, but for the most part, lots of cars running primer while they try and save up for nice work like you do.

Jay, I have worked in the motorcycle/bicycle industries for years and have made the following observation on colors and graphics. "They have to change to stay looking new". Looking "NEW" sells, no matter if it's on the showroom floor or at the car show. Picking colors and graphics is the most difficult thing for a manufacturer because it's like hitting a moving target since your dealing with people and not a solid target number like MPG, H.P., etc. They also have a one year lead time to factor into their choice.

I compare colors/graphics to a grandfather clock pendulum. Safe colors are in the middle of the pendulum swing, such as black's/white's/silver's. These colors might not be as exciting, but they will last in popularity much longer. Anytime the colors get into the extreme range (as in my pendulum example) they have a very short popularity life. Think about the flouresent, pinks, mauve colors thet were all the rage in the 80's. They looked very old in just a couple years. I see Flat/Matte colors as extreme colors and they will not last.

What I see in the motorcycle business is people just want something that looks different than all the rest. If it's chrome, they want it powder coated black, if it's billit they want it painted, if it's painted they want it chromed. There is no consistancy right now because we are in a state of change.

I agree with the other comments on cost of materials. I have spent over $1000 in just undercoat materials on my 32 paint job so far and I have not purchased anything for the top coat yet!

I had a conversation this morning with a T-bucket customer. He brought it up by saying he wanted something that people don't normally see.

I started to notice in the eighties that we go through times when most resist change...then 2-3 years later I hear customers talk about wanting something different. Right now I am seeing one of those times. That means in another few years people will be caught in a cycle of resisting it again. :-)

Define primer.

I have several friends w/ high end rod shops. A rattle can primer job will look like a rattle can job. However- a correctly done suede car will cost nearly the same as a shiny job. I guess it depends on the shop- and whether they are shooting a single stage or a 2 stage w/ a flattener in the clear. Same amount of prep, body work, etc for either. For me- even if I went suede- it still would have flat panels & perfect gaps.

For some perspective- my flame budget was more than most paid to paint their entire car.:eek:

And to add to that cost- the car was painted too.

To me- a primered car is an unfinished car. It is today & was in the 50's/60's.
And yes, I was there & have the grey hair & creeking bones to prove it. ;)

All I've got too say is that now that people say that flat black isn't cool anymore . It is ! And when people say it is cool again it won't be . It's just the way I see it .And becaue I've got a flat black car . Click on the camera thingy to see just how uncool it is .

Steve, I think budgets are all over the map, and always will be. Some people who play at the high end, can afford it...some can't but do anyway. Others like to "hammer the deal", and will always try to pay the least they can. Others will only pay what they can pay cash for, which is not unwise. I don't pass judgement either way. I figure that since it is their car ...and their money, they get to choose what they like. The choice I get to make is if I can afford to work for them, and still keep the lights turned on. :-)

Manky, I can't speak for others, but I don't have a big issue with flat black. I am just curious about whether things are changing again hobbywide, or if it is a temporary local situation. I also paint lowriders, sandrails, drag boats, new special interest cars, and other stuff, so you can see I like almost anything that is custom or performance oriented.

Just see that I lost most of my post yesterday on an edit------so disregard how the babble came thru-----I have noticed at some shows that the paint jobs are revolving into a lot of GHOST graffics/flames--the west/southwest is ahead of the rest of the country by at least one generation, so we still have time in the midwest to enjoy the 70,80,90s stuff!!!!!!!
The 32 that is in my gallery that I built has some ghost flames on it that you can't even see-----whats the point in that??????a proper flame job should make you want to run away-----

Motorcycle art here seems to be judged by how many skulls you can pack on a tank---

The real ART around here now is murals on the Mexican low riders-----mainly girls, gangsters etc

When I finish my wifes 33, I want to do flames , but she can't make up her mind on paint color----so it will probably be primer/gel coat/rust----but it won't be a rat rod

The big check writers and the TV shows aren't any help -----It will return to artists like Jay that will set the true period art, not the big check writers to win the riddler or national roadster show---it will be the paint on the class cars that line the lower classes that will grow as everyone knows they can't afford the 100k paint jobs and they aren't out there at the local shows or driving around anyway

Jerry, Now you did it! I can't stop thinking about what will define custom paint in the next few years. Right now I would have to say that flat black combined with a fifties home-built style is what has been the main push for the past 3-5 years, and it will take some time to run it's course. I would like to experiment with flat metallics and pinup or bomber art, but don't know if that will become mainstream or not.

The one thing I keep seeing recently is a renewed interest in either traditional, or new flame styles. Of the half dozen jobs street rod jobs that are lining up for this year, one is classic '60s flames...one is a new concept I came up with....one will probably be "trufire" or "real fire" as some call it....two are "old timey" 50s stuff, and the other job is still a "maybe".

Other flame jobs are a "fireball" chopper job if been working on occasionally, and a late model Mustang that may get here.

I am experiencing more interest in illustrations and murals, but I think that is generated locally by my past jobs, and the idea appeals to the "outsider", not mainstream builders. At this time I have a guitarist themed chopper....a tailgate cartoon....and a pirate themed T-bucket with flames that will get done.

As you can see, it can be confusing to decide what is coming down the pipe, and that was the reason for my original question.

BTW...I am thinking that "blue string art" graphics deserve another try! :-) You know, since that is a "signature trademark" for your racecars, it would seem a natural to use something remeniscent of that on your projects...ya think? :-)

too much tape!!!!!! got to keep the budget down!!!!!that was for race cars!!!!!where could I park it when I wasn't with it?????

Raelly---I am over whelmed every time the discussion turns to that and I am truly grateful to have been a part of it----but I see it as a period of time whem those fabricators, painters and letterers(?) did that stuff----candy, pearl, flake, tape shade,gold leaf, metalic---it wasn't only on my cars, but all those cars of that period---the restored cars are better than they were then ---the owners have polished, chromed and kept clean some of the cars that pretty much were neglected after they left the paint shop---

But, Robin's 33 will have flames-----

Jerry

I never thought about tape expense......but then I have paid as much as $8 a roll.

Sorry Hotrodpaint . I didn't mean it like you were saying that flat black was crap. I can't say what is coming out of my local paint shops . Because I just don't know . But high dollar cars have lost a lot in value . They had been seeing prices of $750,000,000.00 for early 70's GTHO Falcons here . Now the same car can only pull $300,000.00 . Which is a huge drop. And I don't see much upholstery work anymore . I had to take a job as a welder .

I don't know if your economy is ahead of, or behind, ours. I was slow for about 1 to 1-1/2 years, which seems to have ended (at least for me) in the last couple months. I talk to a lot of business people (of all kinds) and they all tell me it is slow, but not as bad as the news makes it sound. I am sure that housing and finance companies may be a different story, but I am speaking of general businesses.

The news channels predict that our recession is only for a few more months....but who can believe them! They like to keep us upset, and tuning back in.

If your economy is at a similar stage to ours, I think you may have an increase in upholstery requests soon....at least I hope so....but don't give up your "day job" yet. :-)

My son is looking for work and would like to learn how to block and sand a car. Too bad we are so far away (Ohio). Ref flat black, I was thinking about painting my car one part at a time with rattle cans. I have learned a lot by painting small components. If I screw up, I just sand it out and spray again. Just need to make sure I get the paint thick enough (a common mistake with rattle can paint jobs). I like the idea of fixing my own paint - cause stuff happens.

The economy, my age, and my retirement fund (currently a 101K :CRY:), is the primary reason why my 22 year old paint job on my 34 will stay with me a bit longer. Would be nice to be shinier or maybe even a different color, but not going to happen any time soon.:(

Also the car wouldn't look right in flat black unless I stripped off the fenders, running boards and hood. And the wife says that ain't going to happen either.:LOL::LOL:

22 years old almost qualifies as "vintage", even if it isn't flat black! I may have told you before, but my neighbor and good friend has a 33 Plymouth sedan with Pontiac power that he has driven for well over 30 years. He repaints about every 10-15 years, but does it himself, so the cost is a lot lower. He just had me strip and bodywork the front fenders, then put them in primer, so I guess he is thinking about a new look.

One thing he has done is run a variety of wheels, which changes the look with minimal work. Until recently, it had full moons and whitewalls. He likes to keep the paint something timeless...like flames or scallops.

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Originally Posted by HOTRODPAINT

22 years old almost qualifies as "vintage", even if it isn't flat black! I may have told you before, but my neighbor and good friend has a 33 Plymouth sedan with Pontiac power that he has driven for well over 30 years. He repaints about every 10-15 years, but does it himself, so the cost is a lot lower. He just had me strip and bodywork the front fenders, then put them in primer, so I guess he is thinking about a new look.

One thing he has done is run a variety of wheels, which changes the look with minimal work. Until recently, it had full moons and whitewalls. He likes to keep the paint something timeless...like flames or scallops.

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Looks pretty good. Not my choice of colors, but it's not my car. The paint job looks great. He must have some talent to do scallops! I agree that new paint and wheels can completely change the look of a car.

The picture is misleading. It is actually orange on the bottom.

That "talent to do scallops" may have something to do with the fact he has been doing pinstriping, lettering, and illustrations for about 40 years. :-)

I've got a few minutes to kill, and was thinking about a conversation with a future customer two days ago. He mentioned one of my jobs, that led him to me. The job seems relevent to this thread, because it is way outside any fad I remember in street rods.

This couple described some ideas, which they had me draw up, and made the offer to buy a third design of my choice.

I just followed the body lines, starting with the two base colors they wanted, and adding some things I had wanted to try, and they went for it. I gave them the warning that hot rodders tended to be traditional, and this may not be accepted by many. They said that if they liked it, they didn't care what others thought. (some customers have actually asked for the opposite "I don't care what it looks like, as long as everyone likes it".) To my surprise, it has continually won "people's choice" style paint awards. I guess I don't know as much as I thought

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Originally Posted by HOTRODPAINT

The picture is misleading. It is actually orange on the bottom.

That "talent to do scallops" may have something to do with the fact he has been doing pinstriping, lettering, and illustrations for about 40 years. :-)

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Very talented indeed! It is funny how the sun or any different lighting can change the look of a color. I guess thats why they say if your going to take pictures of cars, do it in the early a.m. or later in the day.
The custom paint you did above is pretty unique. It looks like their is a lot of detail shadowed in their. Are those palm frawn designs?

Yes...palm fronds. It is a curtain fabric I found a few years ago, and stashed away in the old "lace drawer" for a future project.

I've got some even "kooler" patterns, but I don't buy flowered lace like I did in the '70s. :-) Some of my customers, especially bikers, would put a beat-down on me if I did flowered lace paint on their ride!

Man my spelling is just getting worse everyday, fronds!:D

Hotrodpaint, that's a fine looking 33 Ply and I do like both the paint scheme and color. Also like that he kept the original roof style. I'm not changing paint anytime soon, everybody but my wife and daughter like it, but have been considering a change of wheels. Been thinking about steelies or artilleries with moons and rings, moving toward a more period style.:cool:
Finding the right style that will work with the big Vette rear discs has always been a chore.:(:(

I think it will give the old gal a new look and it will delay having to throw down the big bucks for new paint.:D find

The original Cal Charger was a lace job

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

The original Cal Charger was a lace job

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I don't remember that car. I bought tons of magazines, starting in '58...and attended the Nationals from '62 to '75. It seems I would have seen it. Have you got a picture to jog my memory? :-)

Here is a recent "lace" job. (I bought the fabric during the Halloween season.) As I said, I don't buy flowered lace any more.

I don't expect a comeback for '70s lace any time soon. We still need to get into the 'flake and other '60s trend first, but it's been moving that way.

Jay

I emailed you some pics that I didn't know how to post here---well actually internet went down while trying--you can post them if you will----