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i am brand new to this so please bear with me.
online i keep seeing titles for sale.
what exactly are you supposed to do with these?
lie and say that it is for the car you just built that doesnt have one ?
i dont understand.
please enlighten me.
thank you
bill
what exactly are you supposed to do with these?
lie and say that it is for the car you just built that doesnt have one ?
Yep.:D:D
Don
i already know the correct procedure for titling/registering my build here in Colo.
i think I'll do it legal like.....
but i was curious.
i guess they are trying to keep the chop shops from flourishing.
last week i stood and watched while a state patrolman attached the VIN plate to my buddies car.
the patrolman was really cool.
and my buddy was tickled pink!
Like I always say, there is the perfect world and the real world. This is one area that fits into that philosophy. In the perfect world every old car you find in a field would come with a clean title and you and the previous owner would go to the DMV or tax office and transfer it like you would your 2005 grocery getter. We who play with these things know that isn't what usually happens. The chances of finding a 30 Ford body that rats have been living in for 50 years with the title are slim to none, so you have to improvise.
Sure, you can go through some title company, but I have even heard where some of those don't quite fit the letter of the law. You can do a reconstructed title or built from parts title, but State to State these vary in what you have to equip your car with to meet current laws. (emissions, safety equipment, etc)
The fact is, we rodders make up such a small percentage of the total cars on the road that it is sort of understood we aren't stealing them and aren't running chop shops. We are simply hobbyists who rebuild a car that has been laying dormant for so many years that the title has long since disappeared, or we are building a reproduction that never had one.
I know there will be flack on what I have just said, but if everyone is totally honest they know this is exactly what happens. Go to any rod run and if you think people are laying out $ 200 to $ 1000 for a title to frame and put on their wall as a "historical document" :LOL::LOL:........I have some great swamp land in the Everglades I would love to talk to you about.:)
Don
Oh, now for the legal disclaimer: I do not endorse or suggest anyone do anything such as outlined in the above. I have never met anyone who would do such an act, and if I did I would feel it was my duty to tell them to amend their ways and go straight. Nor have I ever seen any of the 6,000 cars that show up at a rod run like Turkey Run that I would suspect of having anything but a totally legitimate title for only that vehicle. (there, that should do it)
to be legal i need to.
have photos of the build and reciepts for all parts.
then jump through these hoops.
The main issue in getting a registration or title for a kit or rebuilt car is acquiring a vehicle identification number (VIN). If the vehicle is homemade, or the rebuilt model's VIN is missing or distorted, the state will assign a new one. The Colorado State Patrol (CSP) will then physically etch the number into the vehicle.
Steps to Getting a Colorado Assigned VIN
The first rung is having the vehicle inspected by a law enforcement official. This official will also fill out a form DR2365 which directs the emissions assessor on how to check the vehicle. The inspection fee is $20. Call your title and registration office for a referral list. While you have them on the phone, double-check whether the inspector will have the DR2365 form, or if you need to stop by the office and grab one. You will not find the form online.
If the vehicle is a home-built or a kit model, you will complete a Colorado Assigned Vehicle Identification Number Declaration of Facts form and then apply for the number by filling out the Application for Colorado Assigned Vehicle Identification Number (VIN). The fee is a $3.50 fee for this service.
Once the number is assigned you will take it and the completed DR2365 form to an emissions testing technical center operated by the Department of Public Health and Environment (CDPHE). For information or an appointment, call (303) 744-2442 (and press 3).
Passing the emissions test (if necessary) is the final step required to prepare the vehicle for titling and registration. From here, the process is pretty much the same as with other vehicles. Expect a $9.50 titling fee.
i also got to see a guy get his title seized as an illegal document.
no he wasnt happy....
How did that happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by billy zz
Don
the state patrolman was there to put thie VIN tag on my buddies car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itoldyouso
while he was there another fella wanted his done too.
the cop looked at it carefully for a few minutes and then explained how he could tell it was a fake.
then he put it in his pocket while the guy threw a fit.
while the guy was still ranting the cop came over and was looking at my build and started explaining the importance of going through the correct procedures for titling and registering my car.
Wrong cop. :cool:
Don
i guess so.
he was super nice to me and my buddy.
I wonder what that cop would have said about the 48-53 chevy trucks. The VIN(serial)Tag can be held on w/ one of 3 things, clutch head screw, philip head screws or pop rivits & all 3 are correct, it all depended on the year & the plant on which they used. So who's to say your friends car was incorrect other then that cop....joeQuote:
Originally Posted by billy zz
I kinda wondered about his snap judgment on that too. I think the guy should have asked to see his Supervisor or something. I wouldn't have taken it lying down. Even authorities can be wrong.
Don
i think it had to do with the water mark.
it didnt look like a snap judgement to me.
he explained WHY it was an llegal document and HOW he knew it was.
p.s.
he wasnt just some cop.
he was about 60 years old and obviously knew what he was doing.
Real similar to how we get titles on Hot Rods here, too... Actually easier, cheaper, and a whole lot less risk then trying to fly some fake title through the system.... One of our inspectors here almost turns it into a ceremony when you get the last of your paperwork signed off!!!!!!
What did he say exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by billy zz
Don
from the way he acted (very knowlegable and professional) he probably would have known that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMany2count
i didnt pay attention for two reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itoldyouso
1 the guy with the car is not a nice guy so i steer clear of him.
2 it wasnt any of my business
It sounds to me with the "watermark" part that the document the guy had wasn't really a title at all. Otherwise how would the cop even suspect it wasn't real. I have had some badly chewed up titles in my life and they have yet to be turned down for being dog eared. I think there was more to that story than we know.
Don
Doesn't really matter what the rest of the story is....Something wasn't right on the car or the paperwork, the dude tried to sneak it by the man who obviously knows what is right and what isn't, and he got caught...!!!!!! I'll bet the next "adventrue" the guy with the fake paperwork has trying to get a title is even more fun for him!!!!! Having all the paperwork, pictures, receipts, and necessary build information and getting a nice, clean, legal title is always going to be the best way to go.....
I go back to my original statement.......wrong cop. :D
Don
Depending on were you live titleing a car can be very easy to impossible. There are severeal states were tiltles are not issued any longer at all for cars 15 years old or older. To register in those states all it takes is a bill of sale. Hand written and as is the case here in Alabama not even Notorized. And there are states like California were it can be all but impossible to register a Old car no matter how many hoops you jump through.
Also the location of the Vin # can be a problem. As an example on Ford pick-ups 1953 thru 1956 the Vin was located on the inside of the glove box. Those things many times get removed and lost, there may OR may not be a duplicate VIN # on the frame usually not.
I also question the water mark deal. This must have been one smart cop to have memorized all the different water marks from all the different years or title issue for the state of Colorado. I mean in the lets say last 80 years or so surely the water marks have changed a few times, I mean I doubt if the state even used the same paper manufacturer all of those years. And I have a Colorado title from an Hudson I once owned years ago, and on that title there is no Water Mark at all. Had to be more to the cop confiscating the title than just a water mark.
Sometimes a deal can be made harder than it needs to be. Here in Alabama you could take pictures of each and every step of your build, record each and every origin point for every nut bolt, washer, and part on the intire car, have reciepts for everything. Gather all of this stuff up and take it to DMV. Trouble is there is no one at DMV to look at or make a decision on all of your paper work, and without a simple hand written bill of sale you will "NOT" get a registration for that Hot Rod.
RS
I think this was already posted. This is what's happening here. I'm seriously thinking of selling my cars. My new unfinished roadster will be impossible to register here under the new law.
Ken
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URGENT NEWS ALERT
SEMA and California Agencies
Solve Titling Dilemma for Hobbyist Vehicles
SEMA, working on behalf of California enthusiasts of specialty vehicles (street rods, custom vehicles, kit cars and replicas) and in cooperation with the Department of Motor Vehicles, Bureau of Automotive Repair, Air Resources Board and Attorney General’s office has resolved a complex and threatening issue to this market segment and the industry it serves. “This breakthrough procedure allows owners of certain specially constructed vehicles (SCVs) to avoid the pitfalls of a previously muddy process for legally registering and titling such vehicles in California,” said Steve McDonald, SEMA Vice President of Government Affairs. “Under this process, vehicle owners can avoid a situation that could have led to confiscated SCVs and law enforcement action. Further, the program now permits these vehicles to demonstrate state emissions-compliance requirements.”
Over the years, California’s complex vehicle registration laws have created confusion for hobbyists and the state employees who administer the regulations. Consequently, certain SCVs may be erroneously registered or titled. SEMA has worked with state agencies to address the interests of all parties, including enthusiasts in the SCV market, so that these vehicles can be properly registered and titled in the state.
“Given the looming threat of prosecution that owners of specially constructed vehicles were facing, SEMA’s charge was to find an equitable solution that provided these owners a reasonable period of time to voluntarily re-title their vehicles and pay any necessary back taxes and fees,” said SEMA General Counsel Russ Deane. “After five years of work on these issues, an innovative and ground-breaking solution has been created.”
Last year, SEMA helped enact into law a program whereby the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) would develop and administer a vehicle registration amnesty program. The amnesty program will be in effect from January 1, 2010 to December 31, 2010 and will apply to vehicles that were previously registered or classified under erroneous or illegal circumstances. Under this new law, the DMV will grant amnesty from prosecution to a vehicle owner if certain conditions are met, including the owner filing a completed application with the department.
More recently, a process was established to allow specially constructed vehicle owners that have been granted amnesty to avail themselves of emissions requirements that recognize the unique nature of these vehicles. While there are still details to be concluded, SEMA has reached a tentative agreement with the state to provide for three methods to achieve compliance.
First, an owner can pay all back taxes and penalties and apply for one of 500 (per year) smog-check exemptions. Under California law, these 500 exemptions for specially constructed vehicles are available each year on a first come, first served basis. For vehicles with an exemption, a smog test referee compares the vehicle to production cars of the era that the specially constructed vehicle most closely resembles to determine the model year. The vehicle owner can then choose whether the inspector will certify the vehicle model year by body type or by the engine model year. Only those emissions controls applicable to the chosen model year are required. California law authorizes a $160 fee for each referee inspection.
Under a second option, SCV owners can pay all back taxes and penalties and then choose to install one of several OEM engines and related powertrain components (including specifications for the construction of a fuel tank and delivery system) that are intended to meet California emissions compliance requirements. GM is currently readying an engine package for this purpose. “In fact, by using one of these engines, it is anticipated that owners of amnesty vehicles will be able to exchange their existing engines for a powertrain that represents the latest in GM’s emissions and performance-related technologies,” commented SEMA Technical Consultant, Jim McFarland. However, McFarland indicated that because certain variables are involved when configuring any engine or powertrain package for emissions purposes, some measure of compliance risk is involved when such components are installed in a range of vehicle types and conditions.
Finally, working under the banner of the “GreenRod Project” and recognizing that the demand for the 500 exemptions greatly exceeds the supply, SEMA configured a kit of emissions-related aftermarket parts that met California smog-check standards during a series of tests on a project vehicle. An owner can pay all back taxes and penalties and, if the owner is not able to obtain one of the 500 available exemptions, a “retrofit kit” of parts can be installed. Major components in the kit include an aftermarket electronic fuel injection (EFI) system, EFI controller, exhaust headers, camshaft, mufflers and catalytic converters. For the purposes of the GreenRod Project, the retrofit kit was installed on a high-mileage 1980 El Camino fitted with a 1986 carbureted, 5.7 liter engine. The 5.7 liter/350 cubic inch displacement small-block Chevrolet V8 engine is one of the most widely-used engine platforms for all types of specially constructed vehicles.
According to McFarland, “While the engine SEMA used to develop the kit was considered a worst case configuration, it still passed smog-check requirements. Variables such as engine condition, accumulated mileage, and related factors affecting emissions from these parts may, in some cases, cause similar engines not to meet acceptable emissions levels. Nonetheless, transitioning from a carbureted environment to a fuel injected environment while utilizing the latest controller technology and emissions parts upgrades available from the specialty equipment industry resulted in dramatic and unprecedented reductions in tailpipe and evaporative emissions on the test vehicle. The retrofit kit actually improved performance and drivability while not limiting power in a full acceleration mode, compared to a carbureted engine. It was perhaps the first time a package of specialty aftermarket parts has been assembled for the purpose of reducing tailpipe emissions which did not reduce power or performance.”
“Given the seriousness of the title and registration issue in California, SEMA’s work with the state agencies to create practical solutions for specialty vehicle owners, both now and in the future, is an outstanding accomplishment,” said So Cal Speed Shop owner, Pete Chapouris.
*************
i talked to my buddy that got his vin that day.
that wasnt the 1st time that cop has dealt with the fake paperwork guy.
so yes it appears that there is lots we dont know..
Frequently Asked Questions
How do I know if I need to apply for amnesty?
If you have knowingly made any false statement or knowingly concealed any material fact in any document filed with the Department of Motor Vehicles or the California Highway Patrol, you will need to apply for amnesty. Examples of this would be failing to report the actual value of the vehicle and failure to pay the correct sales tax when the vehicle was first titled/registered in California, or incorrectly stating the actual age of the vehicle. As a further example, a replica of a 1932 Ford built in 2002 is not a 1932 vehicle for the purposes of this California amnesty program. It is a 2002 vehicle. In general, if you have reason to believe that there is erroneous information on your vehicle’s title, it should be corrected.
What are the consequences if I do not re-title my vehicle prior to the conclusion of the amnesty period?
If you understated the value of the vehicle to the extent that the State of California lost more than $1,000 in revenue, you could be charged with a felony. If the amount is less or you incorrectly stated the age of the vehicle, you could be charged with a variety of misdemeanors. Recent prosecutions for this type of offense required owners to pay back-taxes and fees averaging $4,000 per vehicle. In some cases, owners were forced to surrender the title to their car. To receive amnesty, any and all back-taxes must be paid in full and the vehicle’s title must be factually corrected.
What documentation should I take to the DMV office when applying for amnesty?
Applying for amnesty will re-start the titling and registration process for your specially constructed vehicle. You will need to submit a new DMV 343 Application for Title and Registration form. You will also be required to file a DMV 5063 Statement of Construction form, listing the origin of the vehicle’s parts and their purchase price. It would be helpful to have a bill of sale for the vehicle or any appropriate receipts for parts/labor that can be used to establish the actual value of the vehicle. If it is likely that your car had a fraudulent title and will need to pass a smog check, it is advisable to apply for one of the 500 smog check exemptions granted per year by the DMV.
How much should I expect to pay for the “retrofit” kit? How much should I expect to pay for the GM engine and powertrain?
The retrofit kit is a collection of emissions-related parts with specifications developed by SEMA for which a variety of aftermarket manufacturers will be able to supply components. On average, the kit should cost approximately $6,000. The labor to install the package will likely cost an additional $5,000. If you choose to use a new engine and powertrain package from GM, the current LS3 package will retail at an estimated $7,900. GM will also offer a number of other emissions-approved engine packages with a variety of performance options and price levels. Estimated installation cost for the GM system is approximately $6,000.
If I use a GM engine, how will I know if I’ve used the correct parts and properly installed them?
GM will include comprehensive instructions that leave little room for error. If you feel that you do not have the mechanical experience to install the package, there are local hot rod shops, independent repair facilities and dealerships capable of installing the parts. Even when parts are correctly installed, there are variables involved when attempting to meet certain compliance requirements, such as engine condition, other modifications and related factors that can affect emissions.
If I choose to retrofit my current engine, how will I know that the parts kit will actually enable my car to pass the smog test?
The retrofit kit that SEMA developed consists of emissions-related parts intended for a range of engine displacements. It was designed to work with engines typically used in specially constructed vehicles. In general, these would be carbureted V8 engines manufactured by GM, Ford and Chrysler. Although these parts enabled SEMA’s project engine to meet emissions requirements, there is no guarantee that they will allow any engine to meet smog check requirements, depending upon variables that include, but limited to the following: mechanical compression ratio limits, improperly installed catalytic converters, excessive wear (valve guides, piston rings and cylinder bores), piston displacement limits and a mal-functioning EGR system.
Is there a way I can get a pre-certification test check to see if my vehicle will pass the smog test?
Yes. California law allows any licensed smog-check station to conduct a pre-test on your vehicle to determine whether it can pass a loaded mode smog test before you submit the car for inspection at a BAR Referee station. The average price for a pre-certification smog test in California is approximately $49. If your vehicle fails the pre-certification smog check, it may be possible to make adjustments that will bring it into compliance. As with any vehicle maintenance, it’s best to use a mechanic you know and trust.
What if I have questions about technical aspects of this program?
SEMA and GM will be available to provide some immediate technical assistance for enthusiasts who apply for amnesty to help them navigate through the process. SEMA has begun communicating with builders of SCVs and engines, enabling them to respond to the most common questions from enthusiasts. SEMA will also compile additional guidance information. These approaches will help expedite solutions to SCV owners seeking to meet California smog-check requirements.
For more information, please contact Ethan Landesman at ethanl@sema.org
i know i can get mine nice and legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
i just watched it happen and am doing it EXACTLY the same way.
Ken: I'd love to have you for a neighbor here in sunny, carefree Florida! :D:D
Your cars would be considered "sane" here. :LOL::LOL:
Don
DonQuote:
Originally Posted by Itoldyouso
I would really enjoy you and yours sons as neighbors also. We have had this conversation more than once.
For me I have really had it with our government, past and present. I'm going to make a change that is better for my family and soon.
Uncle Bob, if you read this would you give your interpretation on the new SEMA and DMV agreement for Californian's?
Ken
California might have actually done it this time.... I have no idea how many dollars are generated throughout the state because of and in support of Hot Rodding, but the idiots running the place might have just given it all away.....
Ken, you're certainly not the first one I've heard from that is getting ready to pack up and leave the state... Just chatted with a friend in Sacramento on Friday, him, his family, his business, and 10 employees are in the process of moving out--they're going to the Reno area... California just doesn't seem to realize that idiotic money grubbing laws like these are driving out a lot of people, and a lot of these people are taking companies and jobs with them.... My pal Gary is taking employees with them who want to move, but I would imagine he's one of the few that will do that.... I hope the people running things out there have enough money to pay all the bills, cuz they sure seem to be doing their best to drive away a lot of revenue!!!!....All in the name of getting a few Hot Rodders with their "gas guzzling, pollution packed, non-green" cars off the road???????????????.... I guess when the Hot Rodders all move out, life there will be perfect for the electric car brigade, huh????
I wonder more WHO BILLY ZZ is?
I find this a very interesting subject seeing that I soon will be titling my car. Not that it makes any diff. but where do they get all these titles. Like the guy on ebay (same guy) keeps coming up with titles,how can you possible keep coming up with same year model diff. people on titles. Keep this subject going pros and cons. so far I feel like Don THANKS
Ken,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Thurm
When I read the first SEMA announcement of their "accomplishments" with the CA legislature I could not believe that anyone would see the process as a positive step. Seems to me that they are simply looking for a way to phase out the licensing process for anything other than OEM equipment, or to make those that want to play pay for the privilege of working through their system. I am surprised to see someone like Pete Chapouris singing praises of SEMA's work in this arena. I think SEMA crossed the line and got the wool pulled over their eyes, just my opinion.
Felt the same for awhile Roger..... But after a bit of chatting with others involved in Hot Rodding and Motorsports in California I think it was a success for SEMA-----I don't think when dealing with California there was anything else that would have even been a consideration!!!!! Not a good law by any means, and IMO California will only make it increasingly miserable for a Hot Rodder....until they're all gone.... Perhaps the only alternative for SEMA was to throw their hands in the air and give up the whole battle?????????
I have lived in ca for 63 yrs.but not much longer built my business raised my daughter here and loved it. but the last 10 yrs. the public service unions actually run the state it's unbelievable the only thin that matters is how well they are taken care of throw in 10 million illegals on the doll and you have an unfix able situation I have 8 acres on Georgetown Denver rd. in Georgetown fl. that we bought back in 1970 and I will be there in march to see it for the first time and find a contractor to build a shop and house on it and hopefully sell out here next year and move.......ted
Friend of mine out in Corona is pulling out right after Christmas holidays, same for him, lived there since the late 50's, his new address will be in New Mexico!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ted dehaan
Sense this is a open discussion, and a very important open discussion at that. maybe just bouncing a few ideas around that will help folks get there cars registered would be a good thing.
I have just recently, about a year and a half ago, moved from Ca to Alabama. I whished that I had made this move 10 years ago. Life here is so much easier and simplier than in Ca. the political climate there makes every part of daily life a real chore. But last time I checked California is still a part of the Union, and being a part of that Union should ( I almost said MUST) abide by the established laws of the other states. By that I mean if you do in fact have your Hot Rod "Legally" registered in another state, California should respect that registration. So if ( IF) I am correct in that what is keeping folks from registering in another state, or buying a car built and registered in another state, with that car being complettly legal there, and just transfering this perfectly legal registration to California.
This appears to me to be a way around this problem, but I sure could be missing something. Show me the error of my thoughts.
Dave, SEMA may be trying what ever they can do make these cars legal. But from Thurms post it would seem that Pete Chapouris and SEMA took a damn strange path around the barn.
RS
I know who he is from another forum I lurk on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce lee
As far as selling titles to cars that you do not own. Even if the car is long gone, crushed, melted down, etc, it is still a FEDERAL OFFENSE to move a VIN from one vehicle to another without Federal approval. If you just spent a ton of money on your car, why would you risk government seizure of your pride and joy just because you did not feel like following the legal way of titling it?
Bill S.
Disclaimer: (this is aimed at one particular end user who continues to post a draw full of old titles for sale over and over again)
CHR does not play party to secondary title sales like this, and any and all advertisements for these items are removed just as soon as they get posted on the forum.
I have lived in ca for 63 yrs.but not much longer built my business raised my daughter here and loved it. but the last 10 yrs. the public service unions actually run the state it's unbelievable the only thin that matters is how well they are taken care of throw in 10 million illegals on the doll and you have an unfix able situation I have 8 acres on Georgetown Denver rd. in Georgetown fl. that we bought back in 1970 and I will be there in march to see it for the first time and find a contractor to build a shop and house on it and hopefully sell out here next year and move.......ted
what do you want to know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce lee
i am a 46 year old guy that is on his 1st build and i live in colorado.
who are you?:LOL:
BTW thanks for clarifying this title thing everybody.
on it's face it looked crooked.
and now i know.