'38 Ford deck lid vs 37 Ford deck lid

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Originally Posted by bluestang67

Randy even the pics to me looked so good , the seller choked back what was really there . Ask for some back just to see what he will say .

But you have the skill and plenty of 37 material to build a fine lid the the hump .

We work hard to locate a nice usable piece and so many make it it out as being the Queens In Quality , you get it and its so much less like 70% less then was expected ,

Rhandy I feel bad the blur pic looked so much better , just not enough of them .

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Hey Bobby, yeah, I sent the seller a couple of emails expressing my disappointment with what he said vs what I got. :mad: He gave a lame response the he really didn't look at it that close. :eek: What a bonehead! He couldn't help but see it unless he's blind!! Oh well, so much for my efforts to save some time & money repairing the old one. I guess I have to view this as an opportunity to practice some new metal-working skills!:D
Like I said earlier in the thread, all future online purchases will require many more pics and answers to many more questions! Please remind me of that if I start to get anxious to make a purchase....:D

I see it can be saved , but feel into how neatly arranged the picks where . Man I fell like strong guilt Now ..!

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Originally Posted by bluestang67

I see it can be saved , but feel into how neatly arranged the picks where . Man I fell like strong guilt Now ..!

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No, man, don't feel guilty! It's not your fault! We were both basing our opinions on 2 crappy pics! I bet we won't do that again!! :LOL::LOL:

No I bet we dont and he will run out of Digital Film for sure !!!!!!

Does Ford Barn have a Review site ??

Did you pay the guy through Paypal? You should be able to file a claim on him for it. especially seeing how it's not near how he described it. Any way, can you use the inner structure from this rusty one, and the outer skin from yours and make one?

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Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

Did you pay the guy through Paypal? You should be able to file a claim on him for it. especially seeing how it's not near how he described it. Any way, can you use the inner structure from this rusty one, and the outer skin from yours and make one?

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Hey Ryan, unfortunately, I didn't pay him with Paypal. I mailed him a check. He doesn't like Paypal. Now I think I know why!

As for using the inner structure on my old one, that won't really work. One of the reasons I decided to get another lid instead of fixing my old one is because of the way my lid was repaired many years ago. The inner structure was welded in with too much heat, etc and now it's very solid but also very wavy. My dad & I were learning back then. :eek: I'm still learning!:) Anyway, I had a fairly thick coat of bondo on the lower portion of the old lid, which smoothed it out ok but I was trying to avoid that this time.
I'll sand the "new" lid down to bare metal to see what I really have then make some decisions from there.

In the meantime, I think I'll send some of these pics to the seller and see if I can guilt him into refunding some of my money!

Thanks for your suggestions!

Check Ford Barn and see if they have a feedback Forum . Maybe at least spread his name out some .

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Originally Posted by bluestang67

Check Ford Barn and see if they have a feedback Forum . Maybe at least spread his name out some .

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I thought about that Bobby, but I hate to do that kinda stuff. On the other hand, if he's doing the same thing to others, he needs to be exposed. I'll check it out....

Randy he just totally misrepresented his add spread it like peanut butter . If not stab him in another add he puts up .


Randy I know this wasn't the intent but you could cut out a section that is the right radius and make a patch . A little work but replacing instead of saving metal .

So, I sent these pics to the seller expressing my disappointment with the lid. He refunded $100 of my money. I appreciated that!

Now, anybody got any advice on the best way to take this thing apart?? The inner framework appears to be spot welded to the edges of the lid. Doesn't look like drilling them out is a good idea. Maybe run a narrow cutoff tool down between the two surfaces at the weld points?? I would appreciate any thoughts....:)

Thanks.
Randy

Randy, when you say "drill them out" do you mean using a spot weld cutter? They have a drill bit, but also have a "stop" to limit the travel through 1 side. Here's Summit's offering Spot Weld Cutting Tools - Tools & Shop Equipment - SummitRacing.com

Randy, good to hear that you recieved some "refund"... and I'm the furthest thing from a body guy but, how about drilling right through the spot welds? it'll leave a hole to fill but it's gotta be easier than trying to pry and open the joint enough for a cutoff disc. Does the edge of the lid "skin" overlap and pinch onto the sub-frame?

Maybe do the lid repairs in quarters (or eigths) to help keep things straighter? Like I said, I'm no body man, just some thoughts is all..

(That's the same tool as I was thinking of! Thanks RSpears!)

Randy - going to be tough to pull that complete inner framework as a unit without causing even more problems. While it might be spot welded to the lapped over inner side skin, that weld wont go through to the outer skin surface. Spot weld cutters use a center drill to locate and hold the tool in place and a separate cutter to mill the actual spot weld off. This of course leaves a fresh new hole to fill - and you still haven't been able to pull the skin off of the frame. You will then have to pry that outer skin off of the frame, possibly (most likely!!) distorting it - and a further problem trying to straighten twisted and probably stretched outer skin metal.

I think I would approach it in sections rather then as a whole. Where you want to make a repair, using your die grinder and a carbide bit (or a reduced diameter cut off disc) grind those spot welds then cut the actual inner framework at that area and carefully pry it out, distorting as little outer skin as possible. This leaves only that smaller selected area for repair, you then can MIG that smaller piece of removed framework back in place and reducing the amount of visible area that was repaired inside and minimal finish work outside. More time consuming - but at this point, it only amounts to a few hours (on top of even more "few hours":whacked:)

Thanks for the responses, guys! The only place the "skin" overlaps the framework is on the bottom lip. The rest just appears to be spot welded every 3 or 4 inches.
I found a website where this guy is doing the same thing. There are other helpful pics for any of you guys working on 37's too. Stellar Antique Auto Restorations 1937 Ford Restoration

For example, here's the top edge of my "new" lid. You can see where the inner & outer are tacked together every few inches.
Attachment 53230

Here are a couple of pics I swiped from the website above. Apparently, the framework can come out it one piece
Attachment 53231

In this primed pic, you can see where he apparently drilled out the spot welds along the edge.
Attachment 53232

Since this is a "restoration" he's going to install factory style insulation between the frame & lid. It looks like he may have repaired all the spot weld divots from the previous pic.
Attachment 53233

I'm wondering if he glued the frame back in instead of welding?
Attachment 53234

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Originally Posted by IC2

Randy - You will then have to pry that outer skin off of the frame, possibly (most likely!!) distorting it - and a further problem trying to straighten twisted and probably stretched outer skin metal.

More time consuming - but at this point, it only amounts to a few hours (on top of even more "few hours":whacked:)

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Hey Dave, good thoughts in your post but I'm more of a "gentle persuasion" guy than the "bull in a china closet" guy. :LOL::LOL: If the sledge hammer comes out it will be because I will have come to the conclusion that it's just not worth it and I need the satisfaction of making sure of that!!:LOL::LOL:

Sounds and Looks like that Stellar site has it down pat!

It's been said that a sledge hammer in my hands is really just a finish hammer for me....:LOL::eek::LOL:

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Originally Posted by 34_40

It's been said that a sledge hammer in my hands is really just a finish hammer for me....:LOL::eek::LOL:

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Yeah, Mike, the sledge is the one I use if I really want to finish it....once and for all! :HMMM: It might end up being a good remedy for these trunk lids! :eek::LOL:

So here's what I did today: In this first pic just below that wavy deck lid (which is the culprit that started this whole mess! Why couldn't I just be happy pretending that thick layer of bondo wasn't really there!!:CRY::CRY:) you'll see a pretty smooth tailpan. Ah, but I remembered that it wasn't pristine either when we built this car the first time, so I figured I better strip it down to see what sins I had committed in my youth.
Attachment 53245

No, I didn't take the sledge hammer to this!! After grinding off the bondo treatment, I was surprised to learn that this is the original tailpan. I thought we had fabbed one from a 65 Mustang deck lid but apparently that was on the 39 Ford I used to have. I just got confused. Anyway, it looks to be rust free but it is beat all to hell. Should I try to straighten it out or cut it out and replace it with a new one??
Attachment 53244

I bolted on my old lid to check things out....
Attachment 53246

Then bolted on the "new" lid. Both lids have fitment issues for sure.
Attachment 53247

I decided to go ahead and take the "new" lid apart and assess the damage. Given the way this thing was spot welded, I don't think a spot weld cutter would have worked too well. I used a thin putty knife to separate the two pieces a bit then used the tiny cut off wheel on my Dremel to cut the weld. Some of them just broke with a slight amount of force.
Attachment 53248

So, here they are separated. One of the lower corners needs some patching because of rust-thru and there are 3 or 4 small rust holes near the handle area. I still need to strip the skim coat of bondo off the top side to see if there are more surprises lurking there. I know there are a few dents close to the top of the lid that were filled with bondo because there is no access to knock them out with the frame work in place.
Attachment 53249

Now, where's that sledge hammer??!!:eek::eek::LOL::LOL::LOL:

That's a whole lot better way to work that deck lid, Randy, impossible to do it right without taking it apart. The tail pan is pretty tough, could be smoothed out but IMO replacement would be a lot better deal....

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

That's a whole lot better way to work that deck lid, Randy, impossible to do it right without taking it apart. The tail pan is pretty tough, could be smoothed out but IMO replacement would be a lot better deal....

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I hear ya, Dave, but that stuff isn't cheap. The tail pan is $285 and if I replace the floor extension/tool compartment, that's another $245!! It's probably the only way to get it right though.....

Wow, that's some expensive sheetmetal!! Depending on what tools and equipment you have access to, could build the tail pan.....not anything simple but it could be done. I'm just too tight to pay the high prices for the repop stuff so I've had to learn to build a lot of pieces....

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Wow, that's some expensive sheetmetal!! Depending on what tools and equipment you have access to, could build the tail pan.....not anything simple but it could be done. I'm just too tight to pay the high prices for the repop stuff so I've had to learn to build a lot of pieces....

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I'm tight, too, plus I can't really afford it! There are a couple of braces on each side of the tailpan. If I remove those, I can have access to most of the panel from the inside. I think I'll see what I can do with that first. I need to get some better body hammers, though. Any kind that you recommend??

I have a couple of Martin's, they're really nice and an old set of Snap-on hammers that I've had for better then 20 years! Having a set of good, well balanced hammers makes all the difference in the world!

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

I have a couple of Martin's, they're really nice and an old set of Snap-on hammers that I've had for better then 20 years! Having a set of good, well balanced hammers makes all the difference in the world!

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Do you know which Martins you have? I have a cheapy hammer & dolly set. the dollies are fine but the hammers suck.

Randy - are those the EMS prices for the body panels? WOW !!!

I've seen Martin's selling new at swap meets fairly reasonably - but still in the $30 range. Whichever hammer(s) you end up with, I think you will prefer the hickory handle rather then fiberglass. I had one with a 'glass handle and sold it, replacing it with the wood. It just didn't 'feel' right - but then I sold the the '31 sedan body and really haven't been used much since.

I've got a long head pick, then just a nice dingin' hammer with a chisel point end.

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Originally Posted by IC2

Randy - are those the EMS prices for the body panels? WOW !!!

I've seen Martin's selling new at swap meets fairly reasonably - but still in the $30 range. Whichever hammer(s) you end up with, I think you will prefer the hickory handle rather then fiberglass. I had one with a 'glass handle and sold it, replacing it with the wood. It just didn't 'feel' right - but then I sold the the '31 sedan body and really haven't been used much since.

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Yeah, Dave, those EMS panels sold thru Hotrod Sheetmetal 1937-40 Ford Sheet Metal Argh!!:eek::eek::CRY:

Will do some shopping for appropriate hammer/s. I got some hammerin' to do!;)

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Originally Posted by randyr

Yeah, Dave, those EMS panels sold thru Hotrod Sheetmetal 1937-40 Ford Sheet Metal Argh!!:eek::eek::CRY:

Will do some shopping for appropriate hammer/s. I got some hammerin' to do!;)

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I found it amusing that you folks are naming your hammers...:) I've got 3 sizes of ball pein, and 3 sizes of sledge hammers.. oh and a couple framing hammers and a new upholstery brad setting hammer..:LOL:

Randy, I'll be living vicariously (sic?) through you on this phase of the project! :eek::D

OH, ALMOST forgot... pictures please? I'm learning and need pics! :LOL::LOL::LOL:

Body work goes so much better when you have quality tools to do it with!!! I've got a lot of different dollies that I've made to fit peculiar applications over the years, too. Sometimes it takes a special backer on an edge or in an area such as a door or trunk sill to get things straight. Different sizes of heavy wall tubing held in a vice are great for shaping rounded pieces, etc.... Oh yeah, and the aluminum light pole in the alley is the perfect shape for the rounded edge of a rolled pan!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL:

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Originally Posted by 34_40

I found it amusing that you folks are naming your hammers...:) I've got 3 sizes of ball pein, and 3 sizes of sledge hammers.. oh and a couple framing hammers and a new upholstery brad setting hammer..:LOL:

Randy, I'll be living vicariously (sic?) through you on this phase of the project! :eek::D

OH, ALMOST forgot... pictures please? I'm learning and need pics! :LOL::LOL::LOL:

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Well, Mike, you obviously didn't have to do much metal shaping on a fiberglass car!!:LOL::LOL:
Now, for naming my hammers, I want one named Brutus for the big stuff, maybe one named Adele for powerful fine tuning and maybe a FiFi for dainty detailed work.:LOL::LOL::LOL:

And what do you mean, "pictures please"??? Did you not see my previous posts???

This is what I have for hammerin' car bodies. As Mike said, and not pictured, a bunch of ball pein hammers, a 4 pound sledge and for rough in work, a nicely balanced 8 pounder, then there are several general carpentry and specialized other versions:eek:.

The Martin dolly is a 1060, the Martin hammer is a 158G with the dinging hammer a Fairmont (I recall paying a buck for it at a yard sale) and every bit as nice as the Martin and the one replaced the 'glass handled hammer. That clunk dolly is what's left of a $10 K-mart set - and while beat up, does 'feel' good:D.

Attachment 53250

What do you call those ? Sleepers cause they don't look used.

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Originally Posted by angrystroker

What do you call those ? Sleepers cause they don't look used.

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Hey angrystroker, I'm sure those hammers have seen plenty of use! It's just that Dave (IC2) is very meticulous about his tools & his workspace. I don't know how he does it because even after one use, my stuff looks like crap! LOL!

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Originally Posted by angrystroker

What do you call those ? Sleepers cause they don't look used.

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Do I even know who you are??

My tools are just that - tools. Whether they look used/abused or not - not your concern.
I use them, clean them and put them in their back in their clean storage area

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Originally Posted by randyr

Well, Mike, you obviously didn't have to do much metal shaping on a fiberglass car!!:LOL::LOL:
Now, for naming my hammers, I want one named Brutus for the big stuff, maybe one named Adele for powerful fine tuning and maybe a FiFi for dainty detailed work.:LOL::LOL::LOL:

And what do you mean, "pictures please"??? Did you not see my previous posts???

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I wasn't referring to this car! Most of the others were Cougars and Mustangs and I just never "got into" the body work side of cars.

The name Martin is what caught my attention. While I didn't use a lot of their tools, I knew sections of their catalogs by heart when it came to conveyors / shafting / bearings when I maintained incinerators.

And I always thank you for the pictures. I was just reminding you that I'm learning and am very interested in your project, and I wish to see how you get yourself out of this mess!:rolleyes::LOL:

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Originally Posted by 34_40

I wasn't referring to this car! Most of the others were Cougars and Mustangs and I just never "got into" the body work side of cars.

The name Martin is what caught my attention. While I didn't use a lot of their tools, I knew sections of their catalogs by heart when it came to conveyors / shafting / bearings when I maintained incinerators.

And I always thank you for the pictures. I was just reminding you that I'm learning and am very interested in your project, and I wish to see how you get yourself out of this mess!:rolleyes::LOL:

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It's ok, Mike, I was just being ornery and giving you some crap!:D

I totally appreciate you interest and support in my project and if you're into praying, I could use a few of those, too!!! Will keep you guys posted on the progress complete with pics. :)

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Originally Posted by randyr

It's ok, Mike, I was just being ornery and giving you some crap!:D

I totally appreciate you interest and support in my project and if you're into praying, I could use a few of those, too!!! Will keep you guys posted on the progress complete with pics. :)

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Pile it on brotha!!! Pile it on!!:LOL::D:LOL: And the appreciation part is a two way street! I gotta say thanks Also!:)

So, speaking of Martin hammers.....you guys have seen pics of what I'm up against, so if I was going to allow myself to buy only 2 hammers (I already have several dollies), which 2 would you recommend would be best for me? Body Hammers and Body Picks

I've also ordered Frank Sargent's book on metal bumping. Perhaps I can beat out a few dents with that....:eek::LOL:

153G and 156G would be a couple good hammers to start with. Like anything else, once you get the basics you always want more!!!!

Ok, I just posted this on my other thread but since it applies more to the trunk lid/tail pan issues, I'm reposting the comment over here:

Dave (IC2) suggested I bite the bullet and spring for the EMS replacement tail pan/tool compartment.

I got a "best price" quote for the tail pan & tool compartment combo for $600 including shipping. That's a big chunk of change! I also emailed the guy building the 37 on this site Stellar Antique Auto Restorations 1937 Ford Restoration because he replaced the tail pan in that car. He said that they had to split & reweld the tail pan to make it fit because it was just a little too wide. Geez! For $600+ dollars you still gotta do a lot of fabricating!

Then I look at the metal work being done by Dave Seversen, 123Pugsy, that new guy MP&C, Charlie and a bunch of others who work miracles with sheetmetal, and think maybe I should try smoothing this one out before I plunk out $600 for a repop. Heck, maybe I could even cut this one out, rework it and weld it back in since it doesn't appear to be rusted. There is lead work on each side of the pan, which may be from the factory, I'm not sure.
Thoughts?