Hello, I was just googlin' around the web for "narrowing control arms" and came across only a picture of exactly what I was thinking of doing.
But I can't find the thread, can anyone please help me out on this?
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Hello, I was just googlin' around the web for "narrowing control arms" and came across only a picture of exactly what I was thinking of doing.
But I can't find the thread, can anyone please help me out on this?
What kind of car, and what is it you're trying to accomplish by narrowing the arms????
Hi Dave, working on a '56 Chev, front disc brake conversion with my 17" wheels move the tires too close to the fenders and just trying to get some room back without going through the $1500.00 Heidts front end.
Narrowed tubular arm/coilover route.
You're wanting to use the stock springs and A-Arms, or looking for some narrowed tubular arms????
Yes, want to reuse my stock springs, shocks and aftermarket stabilizer bar. I have 2" Heidts spindles.
Only looking to cheap out by modifying my stock a-arms, don't really want to spend $1500.00 on Heidts narrowed set up.
Narrowed arms change everything on the front end geometry....caster, camber, roll center, everything. If you're not well-versed in setting up suspension, it could be a whole bunch of ill-handling problems..... cheaping out might not be the way to go... would a different backspace front wheel help the clearance issue????
I don't really want to replace the front wheels for different offset. I have Coys C-5 17x7 in chrome.
If I absolutely have to go Heidts, I just might have to. I really think it's alot of money for that stuff, then I have to replace with a narrowed sway bar to boot.
Only someone who has laid out front suspension geometry will understand this. Dave has done it. I have done it. And what he says is painfully true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
On the other hand, looking at the control arm in the photo, it would appear that this can be done with a minimum of greenbacks, so I would at least try it. What do you have to lose besides having to do it right later? The screwed-up geometry may be within liveable limits for the way you operate and you haven't spent the farm doing it.
As far as how to do it, I think the photo is self-explanatory. A Sawzall, 4" hand grinder and a MIG. I think I would take some accurate measurements of the whole front end before disassembly and sit down at the board to draw it out to scale, before and after, so you can see what other changes will be necessary.
Even the Heidt's narrowed arms result in some "surprising" changes in the front end geometry.... Anything you change on a front end requires some adjustments to the front end geometry or you can end up with some very poor handling---right down to the point of dangerous.... A designed system that narrows the track width may be ok, don't know for sure, but just going to narrowed arms to use the wheel you have now IMO may not be the best course of action....
Been there, done that. Changing the track without changing the control arm attachment points changes the instant center, which changes the roll center, which..........yada, yada, yada, all for the worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Thanks Dave and techinspector1,
Believe me I have full respect for what some of you guys do to front end geometry and suspension design. Every action has a different reaction.
This is why, I was Googlin' to see what I could find out there and voi-la, an image that I was thinking about was on the internet.
I only want 1/2"-3/4" top and bottom, I'm not a designer but I'm very fussy on accuracy.
If carefully measured, cut on a bandsaw, mig welded. Would there be a lot of things that would go wrong that couldn't be compensated with an alignment?
Just a curious rookie here, really appreciate all this help!!
Know what ya mean, Richard!!!! Played with some narrowed arms on an MII once..... Even with the caster camber gauge and turn plates it ain't no walk in the park!!!! Don't expect the average front end alignment shop to be able to set it up, either.... Most of those clowns can only read the gauge and set to an established specification....Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
No matter if you do this yourself or buy some high-buck aftermarket control arms, you end up at the same place, with altered roll center. Like I said, this may be something you can live with, maybe not. But I certainly would do a little cuttin' and welding for myself before I would shell out bucks for someone else to do it. The aftermarket arms may be a little nicer to look at, but whether you do it or pay someone else to do it, you end up at the same place.
If you pay attention, you can make the arms look good and anyone looking that close is looking for trouble.:whacked:
If I were to do this, I might even be tempted to make a 1" aluminum spacer to fit between the upper arm and the ball joint to angle the arm up a little for increased camber gain on bump. The whole thing is gonna be screwed up anyway, so you may as well experiment while you're at it. You could take the spacer out if you didn't like it. The whole idea is to keep the tread of the tire flat on the ground in turns and usually a little more camber gain will help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
Thanks, this is making me re-think the cheapo idea, I believe I'm biting off more than I can chew. I love to drive the car and if I'm going to risk comfort and safety then I'll have to go for the Heidts stuff.
You guys work for Heidts??:LOL:
Guys, you really made me re-think my safety, very much appreciated.
My wallet says otherwise.:D
You're missing the point. Whether you do it or Heidt's does it, it's the same end product.
Heck no, I won't even sell Heidt's stuff anymore!!!! Lots of better engineered stuff on the market... And as Tech said.... The short control arms are the problem, not the solution!!!! Many other things have to be changed if you shorten the A-Arms..... The easiest, and probably cheapest, solution is going to be to get front wheels with a different offset.....!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by kool
I only thought this would be a simple cut and weld. Don't get me wrong, it has to be done accurately and carefully.
You guys just are telling me that it could come with other issues such as alignment, driveability and possibly handling issues that I've never had.
And I appreciate it, like I said I'm a rookie.
If anything, I've learned lots here tonight from a couple of experienced guys.
Not that simple, you may want to do a bit of studying on front suspension and geometry issues. Many things come into consideration besides just keeping the tire in the wheel well.... I've played with designing my own suspension systems for 20 years, and sometimes I almost understand it all!!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by kool
kool, you can get a real good leg up on suspension geometry by reading the Carroll Smith book Tune To Win. He is the only person who was able to bring it all together for me years ago when I was trying to figure it out.
Credentials? He was the crew chief for Ford Motor Co when they beat Ferrari to win at LeMans. Good enough for me!!!!
http://www.amazon.com/Tune-Win-Carro.../dp/0879380713
He authored other books, but Tune To Win is the one to read.....
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?...mith&x=11&y=12
You might think you know a little something until you read this guy!!!!!!!
This falls into the category of "Try it and see" engineering. As long as you are confident in your welding skills, go for it!! If it don't work, you are only out some A arms. If it does work (and it probably will) you're ahead $1500.