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Hi All,
I need to smooth some small dings on my running boards before I can get them powdercoated and plastic filler won't survive the process. Does anyone have any tips on doing lead type filling? I'm guessing that nowadays we use a lead substitute like the plumbers use, or maybe there is a special formulation for auto body use? I appreciate any help.
Hugs,
Eileen
Getting old isn't so bad, My piece of crap truck can now be called a Rat Rod and bellbottoms are back!
i am shure they make a filler that will not gas out in heat i have done lead work but you may want to metal finsh them .with no filler . both are not for beginers and there is a higher skill level to do them. this the old way. not to many bondo jockeys can do this. meal finsh or lead work but eastwood sells stuff to do all 3 ways
You will need several things, some paste flux, some lead bars, an acid brush, wooden spoons dipped in parafin wax, and an acetylene torch. Propane and propylene are not acceptable as they cannot heat as quickly as acetylene so the heat will spread to surrounding areas and cause increased warpage. You can buy paste flux and thin lead bars at some hardware stores. If you were to buy a kit for filling with lead, it would come with special paddles for pushing the lead around while it is semi-solid, but wooden spoons dipped in parafin wax are much cheaper. To actually apply the lead, you must first tin the part. You apply the flux to the area to be soldered with the acid brush, then heat it with the torch. Pass the lead bar over the surface frequently and when it starts to flow onto the surface, spread it around until you have a thin film covering the entire surface to be soldered. Be very carful while doing this because you are very close to the temperatures at which the steel will start to melt. Once you have the surface "tinned" let it cool. Patience is you're biggest friend when using heat around sheet metal. Now that the surface is tinned, you can basically melt the bar of solder into the dent, then add a little heat to the dent to get the solder to stick. Use the wooden spoon to push it around and get the shape you want. The solder will maintain a butter like consistency as it cools some. If you are having difficulty getting it the way you want it, stop and let it cool. If you spend too much time in one place it will warp. Once you've got a big blob of solder layed out, take a file with a very open tooth (not quite a rasp) and start working the lead into its final shap. An open tooth file is a must because a smooth file will load up very quickly.
the file is called vexin file or body file .yes you must tin it first but watch the heat. it will not take a lot of heat with the rigth lead to tin mix this need s to be for auto work . about a 1/2 inch thick sticks of lead is what i like . to tin it .it will have to be. clean .clean .heat it up with a long neutral flame use tip, tip of the flame watch heat you will need a tining acid like tins tighter or rubies whipe this on with a rag now heat it up get it warm drag the lead stick were you put the acid now if it is hot the lead will start ot melt at this point to work the lead with a rag on steel wool now it all should have lead on it tined. add some more tinning acid heat up and add the lead push the lead in with a twist in to the panle and work the 1 inch from bottom of lead stick with the flame to this will help from heat warp with a lead paddle you can use tran fluid or wax all this said i do not think you should try this first on some thing good like i said it is not for the beginners
You've got to begin somehow and rocker panels seem like a good easy place to start. Go to your hardware store and buy a piece of 18ga sheet metal. Practice tinning on that.
old junk fender or door. some thing so he get his heat rigth and to know what the lead looks like just before it hits the floor :D
Check out Eastwood's, they have a filler that is compatible with powder coating. Never have tried it myself, but Eastwoods claims it works.
Hey Eileen,
This is a lot of work and money for a few small dings. Just like Pat, I would recommend just picking them out and using NO filler at all. A few hits with a body hammer and dollie and you could smooth them off with a sanding board or file. This is the way it should be done and it will be much easier then trying to learn leading and warping the whole panel with too much heat.
Practice on a scrap panel but this old steel is MUCH easier to work then the thin stuff they make today.
Just my opinion...
Mark
".........I need to smooth some small dings on my running boards before I can get them powdercoated and plastic filler won't survive the process......."
I went by my friends Powder Coat shop a couple of weeks ago to see how he was doing. He showed ne some of the filler he uses that is compatable with the process, and some parts he had done using the stuff (I was impressed).
I would sugest that you go by the place your planning on doing the coating and see what they recommend.
lead work is the old school method and I think when restoring older cars it should be used....even if you are not powder coating .......its almost forgotten among newer body shops cause of the ease in plastic fillers......I think practice on some junk metal and get the hang of it.....just like welding, practice makes perfect.....I have tried the lead method...I am not near good enough yet to perform decent work but I am still practicing......good luck and go for it....like said earlier, got to start somewhere.......
Not to rain on the parade ,but,who makes paint formulated to stick to lead,I was going to lead in all the body work on my truck,but then a wise autobody friend ,let me in on the secret of, no paint stickum to lead ,sooo i did not do it.
paint had lead in it and it did not fall off ?? all my cars were done in lead and metal finsh were this could de done .the body work on my cars is from the 80s and never had to do much with it when i re paint them i would get it all done and finsh at out with very thin coat of body filler it is still on there. now do i think lead is the best ? no i do not. but it works well in some places were bondo will not. i like no filler at all and try to do this on all of my work this is faster for me when i work in the body shops i did not have to set and watch things dry and the work was better. as fare has thing not sicking to lead the lead is tined to the steel and plastic fill is not so the lead will not just fall off i have done leading on a off for 29 years. me and my sister would ride are bikes to the paint store and get it for my 34 ford truck . pant will not stick good to aluminum if you do not know how to prep it to so i do not think much about that the paint falls off leadQuote:
Originally posted by shawnlee28
Not to rain on the parade ,but,who makes paint formulated to stick to lead,I was going to lead in all the body work on my truck,but then a wise autobody friend ,let me in on the secret of, no paint stickum to lead ,sooo i did not do it.
Hey Pat---I've already been yelled at once today, but "in for a penny, in for a pound"-----thats a vixen file, (as in female fox) not a vexin file. Yeah, I know---picky, picky,---picky.
Don't use lead. With all these new fillers, paints and primers, etc bondo is the best way to go. For the powder coated parts you will need to use a product called "Lab Metal" or a product just like it. Like someone mentioned I think Eastwood carry's this and there are a few other places as well. Some places might carry something similar but with a different name. Anything like this should be used and nothing else. Lead is too much of a hassle and no need to try and be "old school" and some would say when you can go the better and cheaper route. Should it would be nice to learn how to lay down lead but unless you have a lot of time and money it's not worth it. Make sure you spread the lab metal a few inches around the dents as well and get it as smooth as possible. When you spray your powder and cure it then it will come out like glass and ANY low spots will show up since powder coating flows into every crack, indention, spot, etc.
Good luck.
Oh and I am sure SprayTech (Darrell) will come in here and say the same thing about lead. Actually I think he told me once before not to use lead.... Someone on here did.
Well just to be different I will mention that if you have a blow torch (the old fashioned kind), a metal bucket and a VERY LARGE soldering iron of the type used to set up copper flashing on expensive house roof gutters you should be able to SOLDER small areas. All I can say is that years ago I dechromed a '47 Ford convertible and filled in all the small clip holes with a little tinning acid (muriatic, diluted HCl) and soldered them shut. In fact I learned this from my uncle who was formerly a "roof gutter man" and used his soldering iron which had a large tip about 5" long and 2"x2" thick so it could hold heat for a long time. When we got to the large hole where I took out the trunk handle (about 3/4" diameter) we cut out a scrap metal plug about the size of a nickel and soldered it in holding it from the back with a piece of wood. This is apparently a lost art today with propane torches and such but if you can find a large soldering iron and an old fashioned blowtorch (gas or kerosene) with a hand pump, just put the blowtorch on full in the bucket and set the soldering iron in the flame for 10 minutes and you should be able to tin sheet steel and add lead to small spots as needed. The paint (GM Aztec Red over primer) stayed on for the three years I had the car thereafter (any tiny imperfections in the paint were not visible because the orange-red was so dazzling, it wearied one's eyes to look at it!).
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
sorry i can not spell good enough for you . on the lead yes if you do not know how to do it then do not .i do .and have for a long time so i do not need some one telling me it will not work it has been on my car for over 25 years i would say thats a dam good test of time :HMMM:Quote:
Originally posted by brianrupnow
Hey Pat---I've already been yelled at once today, but "in for a penny, in for a pound"-----thats a vixen file, (as in female fox) not a vexin file. Yeah, I know---picky, picky,---picky.
Pat---Didn't the big 3 auto companies use lead in the seams at the point where the roof attached and at the drip rails for at least 50 years? I don't remember that ever being a problem area for paint adhesion.
yes they did up to the 80s and on the rockers to on some. any were they needed a finsh joint and it did the job very wellQuote:
Originally posted by brianrupnow
Pat---Didn't the big 3 auto companies use lead in the seams at the point where the roof attached and at the drip rails for at least 50 years? I don't remember that ever being a problem area for paint adhesion.
Thanks for all the tips!
I think I'll try the lead. Sounds like fun and I love a challenge.
So you don't think I can use a propane torch? I was hoping I could because my oxygen tank is missing.
I did straighten the running board as much as possible, its VERY thick (16 gauge!) and must be the hardest metal ever made for automotive. I pounded on that thing for hours (I'm sure my neighbors love me) and ended up having to use heat to get any real movement. I figure thats my penance for wrecking it when I was drunk at 17. Great upper body workout, though.
I am going with a dull, textured powder coat so I don't think any tiny imperfections will be noticeable. I'm not that picky anyway. I am choosing powder coat for the durability. I have a scrap door that I can practice on, it's thinner so if I can get good on that, the running board will probably be easier.
You guys are great to take the time to share your knowledge. There sure is a lot of talent out there!
Hugs,
Eileen
i have used a propane torch for leading or the bernzomatic mapp/propane. it will only need to get just hot enough to melt the lead and that is all . the mix . lead alloy will melt at diferent temps.
Cool, I have some MAPP gas. I'm going to try TrueValue for the lead supplies, so far that little store has never failed me. And the employees there are actually helpful!
Ok well if you go with lead then first think about this. With powder coating you will have the oven set to 400-420 degree's. First you will put the part in it with NO powder for about 10-20 minutes on the 350-400 degrees and then after that depending on the color it will be in the 400 degree's for 30-40 minutes. That is a long time for lead to get that hot and sit there, will it melt? Also when I say the oven to 400 I mean the oven will be hotter, you need to get the METAL part to 400 degree's not just the oven. The part itself has to reach to that temp in order for a correct cure. Some parts take 30 minutes and some 40. All depends. That is something to think about and make sure if you are powder coating it yourself (which I don't know if you said you are or not) that you use a IR Thermometer to measure the part temp.....
Someone on here can tell you if it will melt since I don't know. Sound's like to me it will and even if it doesn't then it sounds like to me that it will SOMEWHAT get out of form or something. Even if it doesn't then you may want to make sure the powder will stick to the lead and not peel, chip or crack easily.
Yes, I will definitely double check with the powdercoating shop before starting.
FMX, that is a good point because the melting point of pure Lead is about 327.5 degrees C or 621.5 F and the melting point of various solders can be different depending on how much tin is added to the Lead.
http://www.ensil.com/Database/DB-Ele...er%20Melt.html
Is the powder coat oven temp in C or F?
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
I prefer lead when I have to fill in high contact areas,such as your running boards,or door edges,wheel lips etc. On your running boards, unless they are smooth,you'll have a hard time trying to smooth out any filler. Why not use your torch to heat the metal to make it elastic and gently tap out the damage. If you try just shrinking you will be amazed at how much damage it can bring out.
the more tin the lower the melting point pure lead would have the hire melting point but 400 temp for powder coating ?at 300 temp lead would work but not by much there difrent mixs of lead solder some have tin and some bismuth in them so you would need to know the make up and the point of it melting. eastwood makes a no lead body solder that works like lead but is lead free and works like lead and can be powder coated
Don, that 400 is in F. For chrome or gloss black colors it is 385-400 F for 25 minutes. I am pretty sure lead wont work and I wouldn't even take the chance of trying it. Use the stuff RECOMMENDED for powder coating like Lad Metal or the stuff Pat said and be on the safe side.
I'm with Pat, use the stuff that is made to be powdercoated over. Why make a simple task more difficult that it has to be??????????
Maybe he want's a "Lead Slead". :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Severson
I'm with Pat, use the stuff that is made to be powdercoated over. Why make a simple task more difficult that it has to be??????????
I am afraid to to do any lead work on my cars. but I would like to learn. I have seen it done, and it is an art to just see how its done.
one of my projects is a 59 imperial . when I started to restore the car 2 years ago, I noticed it had some lead work I think it was done by the factory.
the car is all original numbers matching car, so when I get into the body more I would prefer to fill in the areas with lead to help keep the car authentic.
dont get me wrong im a believer in modern fillers . but sometimes you may need to go oldschool to get the look you want.
also I have seen on tv the boyd coddington show where they did this on a hot rod buildup. it was cool to watch
There really is no advantage to lead over well-done plastic body work. The thing that makes a body repair look good, and last a long time, is the skill of the body man....not the filler.
Also, the plastic is a good product, if used correctly. I guarantee my repairs for as long as they own it! The reason I do this, is because I don't have any failures.
However, if you want to buy hundreds of dollars worth of extra equipment, and learn an art that takes longer to do, than plastic filler, and you will have trouble finding people who will pay more for it.........good luck! :-)
yes filling a big hole or dent with mud will not get it . you need to take some time and work out the steel the best you can AND not over work the steel and stretch it or you will have a oil can. there is some places were i still would use lead but not many. if the car has lead on it now and in good shape i would not take it out