products I like

As I get closer to getting my fiberglass bodied car ready for paint, I'm trying some new products that I really like. One of those is Evercoat Superbuild polyester primer. It basically sprayable body filler. I've used it on parts where a lot of body work was needed, as a final surface to block, before applying the final primer. The stuff sands easily, even when 3-4 coats are applied.

Evercoat Super Build 4:1

Evercoat Featherfill is also a high build polyester primer, but it's build thickness is a not nearly as thick and it tends to be a bit gummy to sand, even 15 hours after application. I have to use something like 150 grit, just to knock off some of the orange peel, before using 180 or 220 grit (dry).

Evercoat Feather Fill G2 Polyester Primer Surfacer - Gallon

The good thing about both products is that more filler or glazing putty can be applied directly over the primer, if needed, since they have the same polyester chemistry as polyester filler.

Speaking of filler and glazing putty, I really like two U-pol products that I've just tried recently. U-pol featherweight filler and liquid gold glaze both spread easily, cure fast and sand easily. The glaze is really great for making small repairs and filling pinholes. I wish I'd tried both products long ago.

U-Pol UP0745 Flyweight Gold Lightweight Body Filler

U-Pol Liquid Gold Pourable Glazing Putty

Never tried the U-pol line just because I have had such good luck with Evercoat products, they also have very good tech support and their Rage body filler line is great. My buddy that built bodies taught me the Evercoat polyester primer trick years ago and I have used it ever since. The other thing he taught me I have had good luck with is after your done with your polyester products shoot a coat of epoxy primer on top before your paints sealer (block out to 600-800 grit) , couple reasons it provides a barrier against bleed through of any accidental reaction to the catalyst for filler and two its hard and tough and holds the soft polyester together, and on metal bodies it is waterproof. The other great product that is cheap I know of and used between coats of primer & paint ( don't use solvent based wax & grease remover, use it only on bare products) Is Sprayway glass cleaner for in between coats of primer & paint, found the tip on a airbrush site, its cheap available most every town and is a aeresol, works wonderfull. Best of luck Matthyj

Seems to me that my paint guy advised against high build type primers, saying that they were like cellulite on a pretty girls legs. Looks nice until you look close, but then minor imperfections because of the high levels of chalk in the mix? Is chalk the right term? I'd have to go back to him to be sure, but thinking he wasn't a fan, saying they were a shortcut that carried a downside.

I'm a fan of the U-Pol fillers. Top notch stuff, along with the glaze product.

I don't do alot of body work, but i've had really good luck with the evercoat stuff too. Someday I'll get back to a project long enough to do some body work again. :LOL:

I don't do a lot of body work... but, when I do. I prefer Dos Equis!:eek::LOL::LOL:

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Originally Posted by 34_40

I don't do a lot of body work... but, when I do. I prefer Dos Equis!:eek::LOL::LOL:

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You beat me to the punch! LOL!

Roger, I would agree but like DaveS53 said the polyester primers, particularly evercoats featherfill & Slicksand are basically really filler in a spray form, you have to even add the catalyst just like filler, if it settles along time its a solid chunk of talc at the bottom and must be shaken (no way of stirring even with a drill) the nice thing is polyester and fiberglass are the same base and totally compatible.
We all know there is as many techniques with painting as there are painters, I would say its by preference only as the system I follow was taught to me was by a custom painter and his paint jobs are what I consider perfect even up close. He applies filler first (Rage) followed by Slick Sand or Featherfill , blocked then next Epoxy primer to hold all previous work together, blocked and then sealer then paint, all body work is guide coated then blocked. I haven't really seen any of his paint jobs fail even over time and he has done many magazine cover cars as well as some of the most iconic rods built. The one problem with polyester is its not water proof (no wet sanding) and its real dusty.
I have to say I am know expert I simply follow what was taught to me by one, I am sure if you find a great painter and follow their techniques a great paint job can be obtained no matter what the process, more than one way to skin a cat.
I try to beware of some collision techniques, quite simply daily drivers are only kept for about 5 years before being sold so literally they can fill over rust and not have to worry about out it returning, i repainted a '69 camaro whose paint job was almost 15 years old (garaged) and found filler over rust, it took that amount of time for it to surface and the owner wasn't happy after we cut the small bubble with a wire wheel and found the mess, I think the big trick for me is getting it as close to perfect before ever applying filler and learning how to color sand & buff, but as I have said I am no expert!

Good thread. I've had positive experiences with some of these; Rage, Upol glaze, and the Sprayway glass cleaner. Aside from the cars the Sprayway is an excellent cleaner for the granite in the kitchen, cuts the post cooking film around the cook top in a heartbeat.

Matthyj makes a good point about learning from someone with lots of positive experience. I learned about using phosphoric acid (in it's various forms/brands), as an example, years ago to kill rust from a guy who knew what he was doing. I read often online in various discussions about people who say you can't paint over steel that's been treated with phosphoric acid because it will "blow up". I take that to mean the top coat fails in some way. They may be correct..................in their situation. My guess would be they didn't do the full process or didn't do it correctly and left some residue behind. Cleanliness, make that absolute cleanliness, is the "secret" to good refinish outcomes.

Matthyj, thanks for that reply, and talc is what I was trying to come up with when I said "chalk". I'm going to have to go back to town and talk to my paint guy again. It's always a learning experience for me, and I often amuse him by trying to take copious notes, and then reviewing them with him ;) I'm thinking that the key is that some people tend to see the hi-build as their "primer" and just shoot their finish over it once they think they're done.
You mention shooting epoxy over the finished high build, but then you say that after blocking there's a "sealer" coat. What are you using for the sealer?

Back when I used to work in the body shop, we used an acid that we got at the body supply store, to spray over sand blasted areas that had pitting in it. You sprayed it on and let it set for about 5-10min. You had to keep it wet during this time. Meaning keep spraying it. After ten minutes, you rinsed it with water and blew it dry. It left a white film and you left that film on the panel, and shot primer over it. The film helped the primer adhere to the panel. We used that stuff a lot and it worked great.

Roger, Matty might be talking about a "wash primer", that is either yellow or green that they spray over areas that were bare metal to protect them from rusting. There are also other sealer primers that some guys spray an entire coat or two and then resand that before paint. And top it with the wash primer. I haven't been in it a while so I'm sure it's changed. :LOL:

The sealer coat is a unsanded pre coat right before your base coat, it keeps your color from bleeding back into the primer coat underneath, many epoxy primers I have seen say they can be used as a sealer if thinned quite a bit, others like House of Colors products use a product called Ko-Seal for this, This coat is sometimes used to bridge breaks in the primer surface underneath. When I first started painting I would block sand and cut through the primer in some spots, let’s say I have polyester primer on and shot a coat of epoxy on top of that and I had a guide coat on and blocked it and cut through the epoxy and the polyester primer underneath was now visible, you can't shoot base on top of that in this situation as the polyester absorbs color differently than the epoxy and you get a big ol' redo, the layer underneath must not be cut through, so you could use a sealer on top of the epoxy to "bridge" the cut through, sealer isn't generally sanded and is shot before the base, for a pure novice as myself the sealer is worth its weight as that bridge coat, it’s also suppose to make the paint more vibrant as the color sets on top and not soaked in.
The last coat of epoxy I shoot gets guide coated and blocked to a minimum of 600 and 800 if painted black, if you can block a entire car with that fine a grit and it takes off the entire guide coat the things pretty flat, I wouldn't shoot base on the polyester ever as to me its soft and since its dry sanded (sanded in the 400 grit range) it doesn't get smooth enough as a wet sanded epoxy or urethane primer would be and I think it would absorb the color, I haven't ever tried it for those reasons, keep in mind about 90 percent of that polyester ends up on the floor and in my lungs I think (wear a mask).
Like I said I am no expert, the Achilles heel on a paint job for me has been the clear coat, that has been answered by Southern Polyurethane clear coat, my last full paint was the only job I ever have done that I didn't have a issue with the clear coat, not that everyone does maybe just me! I recently had a custom painter tell me the reason I was having such a hard time laying down some of DuPont’s clears and having to color sand them so much was those clears are designed to mimic orange peel in factory paint jobs, as that’s what they are used for nearly all the time, Like I mentioned I had no issues with the SPI product, I wondered if it wasn't all hype but it appears not to be, they cater to custom paint jobs without a paint booth and drying system, that happens to be in my shop!
To me what separates the professional painters and the armatures such as myself is what to do when something goes wrong, I had enough of DuPont’s (awata) tech support (they were not interested in helping a hot rodder) I think HOK's tech is great though but SPI is the best ever, you can call his cell on a Sunday evening and he will answer (which fits armatures very well)
I keep in mind most any quality product is going to be fair on a street rod, I mean how much sun, weather and abuse do they get? I sprayed a vw beetle with Summits cheap single stage paint and daily drove it for 3 years just to see how it held up, and it held up great. I had a guy tell me before you can't take a chance on it to paint a custom rod with it you don't know if it’s any good, so I tried it and it did fine! I know my latest rod will never suffer the abuse I put that paint job through!
Sorry to be so long winded, also Roger I knew what you meant with chalk! Happy Rodding

My next decision is when to use epoxy primer or urethane primer, over my superbuild and featherfill pimers. I'll use some of my 2 gallons of epoxy on the bare frame, but the rest will go onto the fiberglass parts. I've also got 5 quarts of urethane available, but I'm worried that I'll spray some part with it and find a spot that needs some glazing putty to make a small repair. AFAIK, even the u-pol glaze can't be applied to the urethane, but it can go over epoxy. U-pol glaze can be applied to "OEM paints", according to the literature. The advantage of the urethane primer is a much shorter drying time to be ready to sand.

As already mentioned, the majority of the high build products end up on the floor, just like a whole lot of the filler I apply. Their big advantage is that you're sanding the same product over the entire surface and not having to feather edge or sand across materials that sand away at different rates. Gel coat and fiberglass both sand away a lot slower than filler or primer. If you hit a high spot of gel coat or fiberglass, you either need to quit sanding or deliberately sand the area lower and reapply some high build primer to avoid different material removal rates.

I've found blocking all of the bulbous areas somewhat challenging, but the soft-sanders blocks I'm using really help. The flexible yellow blocks work great on all of the curved areas.

Welcome to SOFT-SANDERS

The danger to a rookie is generally over sanding. Had a friend that kept spraying on multiple coats of epoxy, then blocking them down to the point that he was sanding valleys between the same high spots, then spraying on another round, and repeating. I think he ended up with about ten gallons of primer dust on the floor before he started to understand the stopping point.

Based on the info above, it seems like I have the option of applying a seal coat of thinned epoxy to this running board, an hour before applying the final urethane paint. The light gray polyester primer applied first was thoroughly block sanded, then given two coats of epoxy primer, then block sanded again. An area of the polyester primer was uncovered, when repairing a pin-holed area with U-pol glaze.

I could also spot prime with epoxy or urethane, but even sanding to blend could expose some other small area of the underlying polyester, since the epoxy layer is quite thin after blocking. I hate to apply more epoxy to the whole running board and have to block the whole thing again, but I have done this to one of the doors.

I've found that pin holes hide easily in the light gray polyester primer. You need some really good light and close scrutiny, before moving on to the black epoxy primer. In a few spots, I've used a tooth pick or small brush to push epoxy into a single pin hole, if I'm lucky enough to see it while the paint is still wet.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psoeadwvfk.jpg

Dave,
AROC, check out the quote and thread link below;

http://www.clubhotrod.com/hot-rod-bu...-tudor-11.html

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Originally Posted by BIG-JIM

Being a bodywork newbie I asked "So what do you do when you find a pin hole just hit it with some spot putty?" His reply? "No I poke at it with a screw driver (Phillips)" He could tell by the look on my face I was shocked. "Well now's the time to find out if there is an air pocket there and fix it. If it is all painted and sitting in the sun that air pocket may pop and you don't want that happening after its painted"!

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Try http://www.evercoat.com/product-deta...art/100440/us/ it works, I used it in the same application you are doing its Evercoats pin hole eliminator, I also used epoxy as a sealer before final color.

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Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

Good thread.
Matthyj makes a good point about learning from someone with lots of positive experience. I learned about using phosphoric acid (in it's various forms/brands), as an example, years ago to kill rust from a guy who knew what he was doing. I read often online in various discussions about people who say you can't paint over steel that's been treated with phosphoric acid because it will "blow up". I take that to mean the top coat fails in some way. They may be correct..................in their situation. My guess would be they didn't do the full process or didn't do it correctly and left some residue behind. Cleanliness, make that absolute cleanliness, is the "secret" to good refinish outcomes.

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Uncle Bob, I'd like to hear more about this phosphoric acid rust treatment, whether here or somewhere else if that's too much of a hijack for this thread. I have a few rust bubbles near the rain gutter on my '66 F100 that definitely need some attention. I'm hoping they won't require major surgery but in the meantime, an effective treatment would be helpful. Thanks!! Great thread, guys! :)

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Originally Posted by 36 sedan

Dave,
AROC, check out the quote and thread link below;

http://www.clubhotrod.com/hot-rod-bu...-tudor-11.html

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I've been dealing with air pockets in the fiberglass by the hundreds. I often stick an Xacto knife tip into the hole and twist it around to see how deep it goes. Most of those are minor, compared to this. The defect goes around two corners at the top of the door openings and all the way around the trunk opening.

I'm now trying to figure out why my pictures don't display. I copy the same IMG info from photobucket, that I have in the past.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psoeadwvfk.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psqqmtjydd.jpg

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Originally Posted by randyr

Uncle Bob, I'd like to hear more about this phosphoric acid rust treatment, whether here or somewhere else if that's too much of a hijack for this thread. I have a few rust bubbles near the rain gutter on my '66 F100 that definitely need some attention. I'm hoping they won't require major surgery but in the meantime, an effective treatment would be helpful. Thanks!! Great thread, guys! :)

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I have bought straight phosphoric acid from a chemical supply house in a gallon jug (actually a 75% solution), but it's available in a variety of smaller packaging, in lower strength from auto part stores, hardware stores, and paint suppliers. Navel Jelly is probably one of the better known retail brands. From automotive paint suppliers a common brand is Rust Mort. Most "rust retarders" available have some form of phosphoric acid as the primary ingredient along with dyes, thickeners, whatever else the seller feels will add difference/magic to their product.

The way I learned it is to apply to a rusty or non=rusty area very wet. If there is rust present scrape/wire brush off most of the scaly rust first. I will use a cheap brush to apply the acid, avoid "plastic" brushes, they dissolve quickly. Some will use a sprayer. I prefer the control of the brush. Depending on severity of the rust I'll let it sit for an hour or a few hours, just make sure it stays wet. Sometimes if the rust is stubborn (say in pits) I'll use a wetted wire brush or Scotchbrite pad (these get eaten up fairly quickly though). If you let it dry you'll have a hard, plastic like coating that is a mess from my point of view. If I brain fart and let that happen I sand that mess off and re-do. Once I've decided it's done its conversion thing (typically a dark black film look with some white foam or crystals about) to iron phosphate I'll give it a good washing with plenty of warm water to neutralize. That's the step that freaks out some people; "Won't that cause it to rust right away?" No, not if you've allowed sufficient time for the acid to do it's job. Below are some splash shields from my old Mopar that had just a slight amount of surface rust in a few spots. I blasted all of the old paint off and treated the entire piece(s). All these were done at the same time in the same way, the color differences I attribute to differences in alloy makeup of the steels used. Done this way it is an effective plating process (watch films of platers, they use various acids for a similar outcome).

I have done this sort of treatment on bare frames during construction where I don't want to have to grind away paint to weld on brackets or such. I've had a frame sit in the shop for a couple years (yeah, I'm slow) with no visible re-rusting. As long as the surface was cleaned of the acid residue thoroughly, and then re-cleaned as normal before spraying, paint sticks fine, probably better due to micro etching of the metal surface by the acid (which is one of the points of using Rust Mort as an example).

EDIT: just in case, it should be said, this is ACID, be sure to wear eye, lung, skin, and clothing protection during use.

Thanks, Uncle Bob!! That's good info right there!!

Ditto what he said good info Bob.

If you use POR 15 products, try Metal Ready, its a phosphoric acid based wash also. Something to keep in mind on pinholes, they are actually air "bubbles" meaning they are spherical in shape the pinhole is just the top of the sphere, like Dave mentioned they need opened up or filled by packing as the actual shape may be larger than what is seen.

Today, I gave the rear fenders 3 coats of epoxy primer (mixed up 22 ounces). I had more than enough so I did spot prime the running board, where I sanded through. Based on how it looked, the sealer coat alone would have done the trick. There was no evidence of the any transition between the old epoxy and exposed polyester primer.

I'm very happy with the sequence of scuffing the gel coat with 60-80 grit, applying and sanding filler as needed, then applying and blocking the high build polyester primer of your choice, followed by epoxy primer and more blocking. Scuffing the gel coat, followed by a high build primer isn't a bad idea either since minimizing the sand-through of gel coat will also minimize the exposure of pinholes in the base fiberglass. I now apply U-pol gold glaze to any area where I sand through the gel coat, because some pin holes will almost be a sure thing and they are hard to see in transparent fiberglass.

Evercoat has a new polyester primer that they call Finish Sand. It's a lot like Super Build, but thinner, with less orange peel and a not as much build-up. I probably wouldn't use Evercoat G2 again. The 4:1 products are easier to mix and sand a little better, plus they can be applied over bare metal, where G2 can't.

Evercoat Finish Sand 4:1 - 100738