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I have a super tight engine to frame situation and I haven't been able to find anyone who has headers that will fit (hedman, sanderson, etc). I'm running out of options, and I refuse to put cast manifolds on my truck. I think I have to make my own headers.
Does anyone have suggestions on this issue?
Making a complete set of headers is quite possible, but its a lot of pain to go through (I've done it)---hardest part is the money you have to pay after all the welding is done to have the flange faces machined flat, to seal against the block. I strongly advise that you buy something close to what you want in a plain uncoated header, and modify only the pipes that you have to, staying a couple of inches away from the flanges that mount to the block, so that they don't move around on ya.
How about Hedmans shorties for S-Truck V-8 conversions. They exit fairly high and to the rear. I have used them on other swaps besides the original intented use.
When i was younger I used to make headers all the time. Then I bought a big truckload of "seconds" and just plain DNF headers from a famous header manufacturer. It sure made things a lot easier. By modifying a couple of tubes. Instead of making up everything from the flanges to the collectors.
I have a set of full headers, they don't even come close to fitting though. I know making them will be a tremendous amount of work. Getting the flanges machined won't be a problem because my dad runs a machine shop, it's just the rest of the job I have to worry about.
Here's a pic of the bad side(with the starter), I think the other side is fine, it's tight, but not that bad. I didn't think the passenger side was too bad either until this weekend when I put the starter in place.
Hedman told me they had nothing for me.
Since I do have a set of full headers that don't fit, what would you guys recommend I do first? The thing is, I can't even begin to get those things in place. Should I start cutting off the outside pipes until I can at least fit them in place?
Yep---Fire up the torch and start cutting, untill you can at least get the flange (or flanges) bolted to the heads. Be sure to install the proper gaskets (you only want to modify these things once).
--better yet, do your cuts with a cut off wheel or hacksaw, as square to the pipe as you can eyeball it--that way you may be able to just rotate sections of primary tubes and then reweld them back in place.---get as much weld on as you can with everything still bolted up, then let them cool untill they are stone cold before unbolting them and finishing off the welds in the areas that you couldn't get to.
I'm gonna get out the old hack saw right now.
thanks
you ant put that clutch linkage on that left side yet. :LOL: :LOL:Quote:
Originally posted by tcodi
I'm gonna get out the old hack saw right now.
thanks
yeah I know, I gotta get that thing in there before i can do the driver side.
The real bad side is the pass. side though, with the starter. I just got that one cut up and mounted, now I can see where I need to put the tubes.
Hooker makes quite a few conversion headers for things like v8's in s10s and such. Helps if you tell us what kind of vehicle this is.
it's a 1950 chevy truck with a big block in it.
I don't have any part of the steering likage set up, except for the rack that's in place.
should I just use sticks or something to mock up some sort of linkage for that before messing with the headers?
How wide is your frame at the starter location, (inside to inside) , the reason I ask is with my 38 chevy frame and 454 engine i was able to use standard headers from a 70-74 Camaro/Elcomino without any mods at all on the passenger side. Diver side I hade to move two pipes to make room for steering shaft. I think your application should be similar.
paul
in between the starter and frame I have a little less than 3 inches. I cut some full headers I had last night and got the pass side mounted. After mounting them I could tell that there is no way they would EVER have gotten in there without being cut. I'll have to modify just about every tube. I take a picture of what it looks like when I get home today.
after cutting
go to the out side of the frame. **)Quote:
Originally posted by tcodi
after cutting
It would be possible inside the frame, I'm not sure if they would be romoveable though without lifting the engine a little.
I didn't really want to go outside the frame, but I think I may have to. I just didn't want to have to cut up my inner fenders.
yeah, I guess I will go outside. On the driver side it might make the steering linkage even tougher if I go outside. The steering opening in the firewall passes just next to the valve cover. I think I'd have to take the pipe on that last cylinder and keep it way above the frame to allow the steering link under it.
lot more room on the outside.
I'm not having much luck finding a place to get mandrel bent tubing. I stopped by some exhaust places and one guy told me there were only 4 mandrel benders in the country. I'm fairly certain he is clueless, but still.
I found one guy who has a bender, but not a mandrel, he said it will not wrinkle the tube, but the diameter won't stay perfectly consistent throughout the bend.
Is this unacceptable?
should I keep looking.
I've never used them myself, but Jeg's has "build your own" header kits for BBC.Quote:
Originally posted by tcodi
I'm not having much luck finding a place to get mandrel bent tubing. I stopped by some exhaust places and one guy told me there were only 4 mandrel benders in the country. I'm fairly certain he is clueless, but still.
I found one guy who has a bender, but not a mandrel, he said it will not wrinkle the tube, but the diameter won't stay perfectly consistent throughout the bend.
Is this unacceptable?
should I keep looking.
Hooker ....................$259.00 to $339.99
Dynatech..................$229.99 to $249.99
Headman .................$212.99 to $234.99
tcodi---Most autoparts houses have short radius mandrel bent peices, most header suppliers can sell you 180 degree tight radius u-bends, and if all else fails, go to the local muffler shop and buy the curviest crookedest tailpipe you can find and cut peices from it---the guy who told you there were only 2 mandrel benders in the country has been sniffing too much acetylene.
That's a good idea. Muffler shop may have scrap tubes laying in the corner they would be happy to get rid of.Quote:
Originally posted by brianrupnow
if all else fails, go to the local muffler shop and buy the curviest crookedest tailpipe you can find and cut peices from it---
sniffing too much acetylene ........................:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
you can buy an assortment of dif. bends and pipe sizes from summit to make headers with.Quote:
Originally posted by tcodi
I'm not having much luck finding a place to get mandrel bent tubing. I stopped by some exhaust places and one guy told me there were only 4 mandrel benders in the country. I'm fairly certain he is clueless, but still.
I found one guy who has a bender, but not a mandrel, he said it will not wrinkle the tube, but the diameter won't stay perfectly consistent throughout the bend.
Is this unacceptable?
should I keep looking.
made a lot of headers for the st. with a muf. pipe binder, over the yrs., but you need to do it your way. keep in mind the length of the pipes also. built all of my drag and round track roll cages with the pipe bender and they say you shoulnt do that either, so you cant all ways listen to me.:whacked: :cool:
tech, I did see that, I'm just trying to find a local shop I can personally go. Those mandrel bends from ed's are expensive, I'd end up spending 250 bucks before I get them right.
At that rate I may as well spend 350 and buy a set of through the fender headers.
Are the headers gonna be crappy if I use the tubing from the guy who doesn't have the mandrel?
you are not gonna see no lose in power on the st. and the bends looks fine. :cool:Quote:
Originally posted by tcodi
tech, I did see that, I'm just trying to find a local shop I can personally go. Those mandrel bends from ed's are expensive, I'd end up spending 250 bucks before I get them right.
At that rate I may as well spend 350 and buy a set of through the fender headers.
Are the headers gonna be crappy if I use the tubing from the guy who doesn't have the mandrel?
even so, I don't think I could build headers inside the frame that could be removed without lifting the engine. I don't know if I want that situation.
Even going outside, on the driver side it is still tough because of the clutch pedal. When considering where the tire will be, there isn't much room.
hey pro where do you bolt your water pump on in that pic?or are you useing electric?
tcodi
Wish I live closer to ya, would like to give you a hand so when I get to mine I would have a clue on how to do them.
Pump bolts on in the same place as before, just over the motor plate. Water holes need to be ported to match block once I get a real one.Quote:
Originally posted by TRUCKGUY
hey pro where do you bolt your water pump on in that pic?or are you useing electric?
ok just checking.;) :LOL: **) ...
here's the start I got so far
Loooooks Good. :)
thats a good start. :cool:Quote:
Originally posted by tcodi
here's the start I got so far
better than i could do good job.....i give you a "a"
Looks great to me, but you might want to consider moving the brake lines to the inside of the frame or at least putting a heat shield over them:)
Exit out the fenderwell?
looks good, I like the attention to detail, esspecially cleaning up the pipes around the cut so it doesn't get any weld contamination.
:HMMM: I have been following this thread for a while now, and I just want to ask a question, are all the primary pipe lengths going to be as close as possible to the same length, and how much importance do you attach to that ?
I dont want to hijack your thread, but I just may save you a lot of work.
Thats going to be a nice truck. :cool:
well, my headers got put on hold for a little because like an idiot I ordered the wrong diameter pipe when I ordered my mandrel bends, the new ones should come today though.
As for equal length tubes, I'm gonna try as best I can to get them all equal length, it's gonna be tough though. Those tubes on the rear cylinders are gonna be a heck of a lot shorter, I may have to take them on a full 360 degree wrap around to eat up length.
I think it's pretty important, if your gonna have headers and get the advantage of tuning for the return of pressure waves, you may as well set it up so that they all contribute in the same rpm range.
Hopefully in another two days or so I'll have some pictures.
I am gonna do some sort of heat sheild for the brake lines, I set up those lines before I planned on going outside the frame with the headers.
You have a BBC right ?, just checking as I want to get the firing order as pertains to headers. I have some tests on headers that may surprise you.:eek: :HMMM:
:confused:
Right here is a condensed version of an interesting article as pertains to street headers.
Worrying about equal primary lenghts is a waste of effort, in practice a 2 plane cranked V8 engine such as the chevy is insensitive to quite substantial primary lenght changes. 4 cylinder engines respond well to equal primary length. But a chevy V8 is'nt 2 inlone 4's joined together to form a V8. It is 2 seperate V4's. The exhaust pulses are spaced at 90 -180 -270 -180 -90 and so on. The discharge of 2 cylinders only 90 degrees apart appears at the collecter as 1 large cylinder. This means the primarys act like they are on a 4 cylinder engine, but the collectors acts as if it were on a 3 cylinder engine having different sized cylinders turning at few revs. Life sure is complicated aint it ?
Since the typical street header can have primary pipes ranging from 24 to 36 inches in length. Each pipe comes into it's own flow range in the engines usable power range. Thus this therefore broadens the powerband of the engine making it ideal for street applications. So put simply equal length appear to only work on highly tuned racing engines with a very narrow powerband.
Collector length is whats important on the street a small diameter long coollector boosts bottom end torque, and you can feel that in a street engine.
Hope this helps in your fabricating decision. S:D