Vega steering conversion

Hi guys,

I have a rear steer (Omni) rack & pinion currently. Yesterday, 50 miles from home I hit a hump in the road (where a crack in pavement tends to rise up against each other, great Chicago roads) on the highway and broke the mount, Yes it hangs low.

Luckily, It didn't break completely until I reached the cruise location when I tried to back into a parking space.

A little embarasssing, driving off in a tow truck. Small price to pay for not destroying the car or killing myself.

I tried a search for this topic without luck.

Any help would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks for your time,
Joe

To mount a vega steering system you will need to have a vega mount attached to the drivers side frame rail. This is a real pig, because it falls almost exactly where the drivers side motormount on a chev small block sets. Additionally, you will require a steering arm attached to the spindle on the passenger side of the car that has 2 holes in it, one for the tie rod, and one for the drag link which runs across to the pitman arm on the vega box.
If you are running block hugger headers or cast manifolds you will die a thousand deaths trying to get enough u-joints and intermediate shafts to get from the end of the steering column to the input shaft on the vega box.
I know whereof I speak---have built 3 rods using this steering method. The upside of this is that its an absolutely marvelous system---no bumpsteer, very stable at all speeds, and very low effort required to steer at any speed.
I have pictures if that would help.----Brian

Brian is right on the money and I've done several of these in the initial building of the car.
Right now I'm watching a friend do a Vega type steering box in a SBC powered A framed car.

Motor mounts are easy to alter if necessary.

As far as the right side steering arm goes, another way out is to use a tie rod end that has a tapered hole in it for the right side of the draglink.

It's a common Jeep part and Jeep mail order (and walk-in) shops carry them.
Speedway Motors carries them as well.

All that's required is a slightly shorter drag link.
Drag links are easy to alter or make from scratch - I do it often - and custom lengths are available.

Note the standard and tapered hole tie rod ends in the pic.

Wrong pic, what you see above is the Jeep tie rod end with tapered hole installed.

This one should be the right pic.

Here's a fairly typical install.

Difficult to see, but the steering box proper mounts on a commercially available plate and the plate is welded to the frame.

You can make your own plate out of 3/16" CR steel and weld on a couple of bushings so the Vega box will stand off away from the flat plate a ways.

There's quite a bit of latitude in placing the Vega box, just don't hang it so low that the pitman arm can catch on something.

Aftermarket pitman arms are available and the one in the pic is an aftermarket arm.
Easily bent up - or down - if required.
Use heat, get the part to a dull orange and bend being careful not to elongate the broached pitman shaft hole or tie rod hole.

Here's an overhead shot of my 31's front end.

Note the steering arm with double holes as Brian mentioned.
Aftermarket steering arms always come this way as far as I know.

Guys who use a fore & aft oriented drag link will cut off the rear hole of the double hole steering arms most times.

Brian & C9,

Thanks for your quick response. The Vega style steering sounds like it might be the way to go.

I'm running a BBC with over the frame rail headers. I might have enough space between the block and frame.

With the mounting plate, how far does the box sit off the frame?
Do you have any specs you could forward?

C9 - I can see from the picture you are running a 4 bar, looks like enough room, just need more info to check clearances.

Have you or do you know anything about the cross steer rack & pinion steup from Speedway?

Uses the Vega mount. Any word of mouth as to how good they are?

Thanks again,
Joe

Quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Cool 34
Brian & C9,

Thanks for your quick response. The Vega style steering sounds like it might be the way to go.

I'm running a BBC with over the frame rail headers. I might have enough space between the block and frame.

With the mounting plate, how far does the box sit off the frame?
Do you have any specs you could forward?

C9 - I can see from the picture you are running a 4 bar, looks like enough room, just need more info to check clearances.

Have you or do you know anything about the cross steer rack & pinion steup from Speedway?

Uses the Vega mount. Any word of mouth as to how good they are?

Thanks again,
Joe

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You're welcome.

That's a Big Block (455) Buick in the pic so the Vega box should have no problems fitting your frame and your BBC.

The reason the Vega box has to sit off the frame a touch is that the round part of the body sticks out further than the cast mounts.
Including the 3/16" plate, the tabs on the box sit off the frame perhaps 1".
I can get you an exact measurement later today if necessary.

My 32 runs a 4 bar, but the car in the pic is my 31 A roadster on 32 frame project that's to the roller stage.
What you see on it is a home-made radius rod.
Another view of it is in the pic below.
(A small gusset gets added on the inside of where the top and bottom bars intersect.)

The only thing I've heard about the half a steering rack replacement for the Vega box is that there is less travel available as compared to a Vega pitman.
Which may just be an old wives tale, I haven't seen one in person or talked to any owners.
In any event, the Vega pitman doesn't swing too far and in fact my 32's Vega box pitman is about 5" center to center as compared to the stock - and aftermarket - pitman arm length of 6" center to center of the pitman shaft bore and the tie rod bore.

C9

You mentioned

"Including the 3/16" plate, the tabs on the box sit off the frame perhaps 1".
I can get you an exact measurement later today if necessary".

Can you give me the overall width from the frame to the widest part of the steering box housing.



Thanks,
Joe

I have attached pictures, which show the vega box and mount, in conjunction with the motor mount and one showing the routing of steering shafts and universals. The measurement from the inside of the frame rail to the inside of the steering box is 5" at its widest point.---Brian

and another

And this is the area where you start to run in circles and bite yourself, trying to make everything fit.

Nice motor mounts Brian.

Interesting too that getting the steering and exhaust to work together in an SBC powered car can be such a tough go.

The pic below shows the header/steering shaft setup in my 32.
Home-built eaders make life a lot easier.
My friend runs a car similar to Brians, he's run a couple different sets of 'block-hugger' headers and both of them were a tight fit.

I think there's a commercially available BBC header for the thin fendered cars.
I'd make a point to get a set of these before you build the motor mounts or mount the steering box.
(Unless you're building your own headers or are using stock manifolds.)

Measurements are nice to have, but once you start working in three dimensions, all bets are off.

If there is a severe conflict between steering box, exhaust system and engine, give some thought to a fore and aft (side-steer) draglink.
That will get the steering box out of the way for the most part.

A correctly set up side-steer system will not have bump-steer problems.
Bump-steer in side-steer setups is a much bandied about tale repeated by guys who've never been involved with one and are repeating what they've heard.

A sloppily thought out steering system regardless of whether it's side or cross-steer can have bump-steer problems.

Anyway, you can see that the steering box in my 32 is tucked under the motor mount a little ways.
It sits about the same height as the box in Brians pic.

Here's another view of the 32's headers.

Note the intermediate shaft is parallel to the frame.

Here's pic of the 31 on 32 rails roadster's steering column, steering box etc.

Note that the column comes down further and the angle of the U-joint is lessened.

(I make my own aluminum steering colums utilizing ball bearings both ends and a stock, un-cut GM non-tilt steering shaft.)

Here's a pic of a mocked-up header setup that will be used on the 31.

This alleviates a lot of problems with inside the frame headers that conflict with other things and can be a tight fit.
It also helps in the under-frame muffler dept.

(I'm limited in the size of the muffler I can use in my 32 and want this car to be quieter so larger mufflers will be used on the 31.)

C9X, I'm building a 30 with SBC and I really like your setup. Did you purchase the motor mounts or make them? There are several different types of mm to choose from and yours looks like the one that will best suit this application. If you bought them, where did you get them? Thanks for the pictures from everyone, they really do speak a 1000 words. I was thinking about a different type of mount but your experience and advise has changed that decision.

The motor mounts on both my roadsters are cut from 3/16" CR flat plate.
Three pieces, one top plate and two outside gussets.

They are, to a certain extent similar to 48 Ford style biscuit mounts and in fact I ran Ford rubber cushions for a while, but some of the modern re-pro rubber biscuits are overly soft.
I did find a set of about the same durometer (hardness) as the stock Ford ones . . . if I remember right they were from Chassis Research in Iowa.
Good place to deal with.

Here's a pic of the right side mount in my 32.
42,000 miles to date with about the last 15,000 with the UHMW biscuits shown.
(More pics to follow.)

This pic shows the underside of the right side mount as well as the home-made remote oil filter adapter and the frame adapters for the #10 oil line that goes inside the frame.
The filters are located on the right frame rail under the passenger area.

Note the stock Ford style underside cushion.
This is an older photo and the black rubber cushion was replaced with UHMW when the upper UHMW biscuit was installed.

This pic shows the 31's left side motor mount.

The white plastic is UHMW - stands for Ultra High Molecular Weight.
It's a type of industrial sliding bearing, not as slippery as Teflon, but 70% stronger from what I understand.
Quite a bit cheaper than Teflon as well.

It's available many places, comes in sheets of different thicknesses - 3/8, 1/2, 3/4 & 1" for example and I believe other sizes are readily available.

It's easy to work, pilot drill it 1/4".
Cut out the size desired with a hole saw.
Drill the mounting hole to size.

It machines fairly well if you use a very sharp HSS cutting bit.

The aluminum load spreaders on top and bottom are not really required.
I thought they were and made the bottom one when I put the 31 together.
Seven months later, I made the top plate and when I lifted the engine to install it, the weight of the [complete] engine and trans had not dented it.

It damps vibrations quite well and the 32 seems to run quiter with the UHMW motor mounts than it did with the rubber mounts.

Engine mount engine side plate is 3/16" CR - one plate of the stuff went a long way as is the welded together three piece frame side mount.

There is a UHMW under cushion and it's all held together with 1/2" bolts and Nylock nuts.

C9 & Brian,

I just opened your replies, I will have to measure the 5" width from the frame rail, do not think there should be a problem.

Can the drag link run on an slight angle to the passenger steering arm? I don't see why it couldn't if it should need to, I really don't think it will though.

I have over the frame headers, so I believe the only problem I might encounter will be the cross brace/motor mount combination.

The drag link and steering rod clearances should be well below the balancer and through the 4 bar.

I would post pictures but I'm not sure how to. Do I have to post them to a website first? or can I link them to through this site.

Thank you a ton for all your help and pictures you have posted !!

Joe

Quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Cool 34
C9 & Brian,

I just opened your replies, I will have to measure the 5" width from the frame rail, do not think there should be a problem.

Can the drag link run on an slight angle to the passenger steering arm? I don't see why it couldn't if it should need to, I really don't think it will though.

I have over the frame headers, so I believe the only problem I might encounter will be the cross brace/motor mount combination.

The drag link and steering rod clearances should be well below the balancer and through the 4 bar.

I would post pictures but I'm not sure how to. Do I have to post them to a website first? or can I link them to through this site.

Thank you a ton for all your help and pictures you have posted !!

Joe

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The drag link can run - and usually does - at an angle, usually uphill from steering arm to pitman when viewed from the front.
Try to match the angle of the panhard bar if you run one - and you should run a panhard if you have a transverse front spring.

If necessary the drag link can run at a moderate angle from the tie rod when viewed from the top
Most times the steering box will sit to the rear and bring the pitman end of the draglink to the rear.

Far as posting pics goes, downsize them to about 650 pixels across and convert them to JPG.
Save em to a file.
Go to the bottom of the reply form and select browse.
Select your photo from your file and once it shows up in the browse window you can hit submit reply

C9

This is a picture looking from the front to the back.

I hope the mounting bracket will allow the input shaft to be just below this cross brace/motor mount.

The second picture is looking from the firewall towards the front.


What are your thoughts?

Thanks again,
Joe

C9,

This is a picture from the firewall looking towards the front.

If you're going with the Vega box you might want to look at the sixth item down on this page; http://www.chassisengineeringinc.com...3-1934ford.htm

Looks like you have plenty of room width wise so that's not the issue, but this mount also allows you to drop the box down some (check for ground clearance of course) when compared to the normal surface mount the guys have referenced above, plus it has the extra gussetting for needed strength. Looking at the probable width of your frame, you won't have the same issues of shaft routing the Model A chassis has. If you mock everything up before welding you'll be able to proof your clearance needs.

Like Bob says, you're gonna have to mock it up to be sure.
Looking from here it looks like the Vega box can hang down a little lower and it will be below your crossover motor mount tube.

Keep in mind as well that you can heat and bend the pitman up to get additional clearance. (Do that with the pitman removed from the box . . . seems obvious, but I've heard newbies talk of heating the pitman while still on the box.)

If you use an aftermarket flat pitman you can insert the draglinks tie rod end from top or bottom due to the flat pitmans are tapered top and bottom.
I've done the tie end install both ways so no big deal there.

If it came to it, you can gain some room by cutting the crossover tube motor mount and running it up a little higher on the frame.
That would require shortening the flat tab that bolts to the motor mount proper, but it looks very do-able from here.

Regardless, the Vega box mounting plate does allow the box to hang down a ways and there's usually a gusset to brace the mounting plate against the bottom of the frame.
You're gonna want the mounting plate hanging below the frame far enough to allow installation of the lower two Vega box mounting bolts.

The photos you posted are a big help in visualizing what you're trying to do.
I'm guessing the crossover tube mount is 2" OD and you could gain that much easily if you had to.

Got a dead-on side view of the car?
That could give us an idea of how low the steering box could go.

Too low is not so good in most cases.
I try to tuck the box and pitman arm up to where it's fairly well protected.

Every once in a while I see a car - usually well built - with a Vega box angled down in front to alleviate the U-joint angle.
(30 degrees is the max recommended for one U-joint)
The angled down part not so bad, but when they install the aftermarket flat pitman and the front of it is the lowest thing on the car . . . it strikes me as a not-so-good way to do it.

Here's a front view of a car my friend is doing for a guy.
Look close and you can see an "S" shaped pitman arm.
Note too that the box is hung fairly low.

It has a steering box similar to a Vega . . . it is a Saginaw, but I'm not sure which one.
A little more research is needed before I can be sure of the number - there were no marks etc. on the box.
It may have come out of a Camaro or similar size car.

Since the Vega's are so difficult to find nowadays - unless you buy an aftermarket one - we've started looking at other steering boxes.

There are several Saginaw boxes out there that look like they would work well in the hot rod environment - they're only a little bit larger than the Vega.
But . . . you have to be careful.

We found one ideal looking candidate and after a little inspection, we realized the pitman shaft rotated opposite to a Vega pitman.
Turn left to go right, not so good.
Probably has to do with the front steer cars.

Nice part about the box in the pic, a simple flat plate mount did the trick.
No stand-off bushings were required due to the boxes mounting tabs stuck out beyond the rounded body of the box.

Here's another view of the same steering box.
Note the motor mount location.
Note too, the tie rod and drag link are parallel.

If you used this box you shouldn't have any trouble using the flat aftermarket steering arm.
Most of the GM passenger car pitman arms have the same size broached hole in the big end.

Note too that the box is larger than the Vega and sits further toward the inside.
I don't have any measurements here, but the box looks like it would work in a number of cars.

These boxes run $40. - $50. in my area. (N/W Arizona.)

Here's a pic of a #122 Saginaw steering box.

I believe these were used in 70's era El Camino's and the similar sized passenger car as well as the slightly smaller cars like the V8 Monza although you'll find the Vega box in most of the Monza sized cars.

This box would be an excellent one for your use due to the longer input shaft that would help in the motor mount clearance dept.

Physically, it's not much larger than the Vega and in fact a Texas based fiberglass body company was using these in the frames they supplied when finding a Vega box got tough.

I bought the Vega box in my 32 in 1985 and out of 25 Vega's at the junkyard, only two of them had steering boxes.
They were more than popular then and it's worse now.

And here's a pic of a Vega Saginaw #140 for comparison.

Fwiw - the #122 box shown above bolts right onto the Vega aftermarket adapter plate.

One update for you Jay, the newer Borgeson joints will go to 35 degrees. The challenge will be knowing whether you're buying someones older or newer inventory. For anyone at that point and needing the extra angle a call to Borgeson on how to tell the difference might be a good idea.

Thanks for the info Bob.

I'm curious to know what you think about the U-joint/vibration damper.

So far, I haven't really found a need for one.
Balanced engine, balanced driveshaft & balanced tires make for a smooth running car that doesn't vibrate back through the steering wheel.

My opinion so far is that they are an answer to a question never asked....

Good question. I haven't given them any thought, maybe for the same reasons as you. Being a creature of habit I just keep doing what's worked before until motivated otherwise.

I wonder if it's a matter of experience/expectation. You and I may not perceive a need, whereas some later arrival to the hobby/sport/whatever who's frame of reference, and driving feel preference, is a "numb" steering feedback. On the other hand, it looks like one of those "couldn't hurt" options. Never used one, or knowingly driven a rod with one to know if there's any meaningful result.

I have never used a vibration dampner---like Bob, I have never seen the need for one. They are probably a great idea, but none of the cars I have built ever acted as though they needed one. If you have endless $$$, they probably can't hurt .

C9x, couldn't help but notice your through-the-frame brake line fitting in one of your earlier pictures. As described on another thread (Master Cylinder?) I am having trouble sealing one side (left front) using a Speedway stainless through-the-frame fitting but yours looks slightly different. What is the source for your fitting through-the-frame? I find this thread useful since I have a Vega box with the cross steer '35 Ford style double-hole on the right front as shown earlier on this thread along with a flat pitman arm, but I do not have the steering universal in yet. My bracket came as welded on by Brookville and it looks like the pitman arm is parallel to the floor so I may have to use several universals as Brian did, but anyway I am watching this thread for tips. What about the brake line fitting?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Guys,

Just had a chance to read your comments.

C9 - I will post a side view pic tomorrow.

I hope I won't have to reconfigure the crossover mount. Like you have said, I'll have to layout things to know for sure.

Just trying to limit the buy & return phase. I really wish the Chicagoland area had more walk-in shops.

Talk to you later and "Thanks Again"

Joe

Quote:

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Originally posted by Don Shillady
C9x, couldn't help but notice your through-the-frame brake line fitting in one of your earlier pictures. As described on another thread (Master Cylinder?) I am having trouble sealing one side (left front) using a Speedway stainless through-the-frame fitting but yours looks slightly different. What is the source for your fitting through-the-frame? I find this thread useful since I have a Vega box with the cross steer '35 Ford style double-hole on the right front as shown earlier on this thread along with a flat pitman arm, but I do not have the steering universal in yet. My bracket came as welded on by Brookville and it looks like the pitman arm is parallel to the floor so I may have to use several universals as Brian did, but anyway I am watching this thread for tips. What about the brake line fitting?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

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The fitting is a standard Earls aluminum 90 degree AN bulkhead fitting male both ends.

3/16" brake tubing is adapted using an Earls tube sleeve and tube nut.
Available in both aluminum and cad iridited steel.
(Mine are aluminum.)
The stainless flex line is a standard hot rod aftermarket item.
I think from the Deuce Factory, but am not sure.
Anyway, it has the 37 degree AN fitting angle and the line bolts right on.
(It'll help to make an extra long wrench to slide up inside the frame to keep the 90 degree bulkhead fitting from swiveling when doing the install.
Get a cheap-o Chinese end wrench, cut off the head and some of the handle and braze it inside a piece of 1/2 x 1" rectangular tubing.

A lot of speed shops - at least the ones that have been around a while have the machine to make these braided flex lines.
You can buy braided stainless Teflon lined flex line and the fittings and do it yourself with hand tools, but working with the smaller (#3) Teflon lined line is a total bitch.
Way better to buy it already made up.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Cool 34
Guys,

Just had a chance to read your comments.

C9 - I will post a side view pic tomorrow.

I hope I won't have to reconfigure the crossover mount. Like you have said, I'll have to layout things to know for sure.

Just trying to limit the buy & return phase. I really wish the Chicagoland area had more walk-in shops.

Talk to you later and "Thanks Again"

Joe

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Move to Arizona and we'll loan you our 'dummy' steering box.... 8^)


All kidding aside, I don't think you'll have to alter your motor mounts.
It looks like the box will hang down about the same as the ones in my roadsters.

Height can be judged by noting where the bottom box mounting bolt holes end up.
They have to be low enough to access the bolt hex with a wrench or socket and that's as high as they can go.
1 to 1 1/2" lower should be ok as long as the mounting plate is gusseted to the underside of the frame rail.

It also looks like the decreased diameter aft end of the steering box - albeit short - will allow the box to snuggle up against the motor mount ok.
U-joint bolt access should be ok even if the U-joint proper is close to the motor mount tubing.

C9,

Speaking of Arizona, I have a standing offer in Goodyear.
Probably won't move though.

This pic is dead on:

This pic is looking slightly downward:

The steering universal is lower because of the broken bracket.