Return of the start "click"......

OK....so after the steam clean fiasco...and the initial "click" on start problem....I followed some advice and went through all the wiring I at least understand and made sure everything was grounded properly. The alternator situation was fixed as well through that.

What has started to happen again is the darn "click" upon ignition:

1) Battery is fine, alt is fine, starter is fine. Grounds (as far as I can test) are fine.

2) The following will happen regardless of whether I have done several short stops and re-starts,...whether I drive her for 40 minutes then shut done once,...and re-start 10 minutes later...etc. it is COMPLETELY intermittent without any logical variable to pin-point. It has maybe done this 3 times over 4 days of driving....NOT every time at all.

UPON START: I get a "click"..no starter motor engagement at all...idot lights come on dash as they should and voltmeter momentarily pegs zero.
Upon SECOND TRY (so far) the car fires right up..no problem. Then I can shut her down and start her 3 times in a row without and further "click"......like I said no consistency at all.

THE CLICK seems to come from inside the dash or engine compartment (I know...pretty vague). But it is definately NOT a mechanical sounding click.

3) WHAT components are involved and what path of current is used when a "start" is engaged. My newbie knowedge tells me we have the switch in the column, the ignition coil and the starter motor.....?....But in what order,...and WHERE to start looking for a problem. Especially with something sooooo intermittent.

THE ONLY variable that is applicable here is that this NEVER happened at all prior to that darn steam (pressure :-( cleaning.
But I have checked everything I know of for corrosion,....but it is what I do not know to check that is concerning me..........

Any help would be greatly appreciated....
Thanks again guys!.......

btw - No Streetz...I am not ready to scrap the car and get a pail that runs.

:) :)

Interesting Streetz.....
I will see if I can trace the wires to that switch on the column,...and then where they go from there.

I will also try the "out of park and back in"....but I can only do that if it clicks twice,.....so far...when it clicks,...the nect time I try it fires right up.

The click is the relay kicking in but not completing the circuit. You didn't say what kind of car you have. Fords mount the relay on the inner fender. GM relay is part of the solenoid on top of the starter. When I have that problem I tighten the starter connections. If that doesn't work I take the starter cable off, clean it and the nut with sandpaper and put it back together. It's worked every time. On Fords the relay connection needs to be cleaned too. On a GM car you may need to clean all the connections on the solenoid.
AL

Al, he's got one of those BIG BLOCK BOB'S.

Jeff, it could be the solenoid hangin' up, that's the smaller cylindrical unit on top of the starter. Just make sure again on all the connections.

Interesting.....the relay concept makes sense....but I wonder why it is soooo intermittent. And this go around it does it ONCE,...then fires the next time.

It looks like I am FINALLY going to have to buy some fo those ramps so I can get under the car.....there is NO WAY to get at the starter motor or relay from up top due to the headers........PLUS the starter motor is wrapped in heat pad.

I do notice that the main pos. battery cable runs to the starter motor...there are a few more HEAVY gauge cables down there too....I jsut can't tell where they're going from or to.

- Bob,.....yup...those connections I was not able to check. Looks like I MUST check 'em now.....

- AL - its a 73 Nova ss with a Chevy 454.....

I

I know you said that you checked the grounds, but this sure sounds like an intermittent connection, ie: poor ground.
Those other heavy gauge wires you see at the starter are the (+) wires that feed the ignition switch, fuse box, headlights, etc. They should be fuseable links.
If the wire colors are correct, the purple wire is the start wire, connected to the "s" terminal of the starter, and back to the Ign. switch.
If you can catch it in the act, do a voltage drop from the purple wire at the starter while cranking. It should read extremly close to zero, and not more than around .6 volts. (FYI- it should read 0 volts key on in the run position) If it reads more than .6, you have a bad connection (corrosion) or a poor ground.

I know this is not the same as a direct test of the wire.....
But my gauge cluster voltmeter does show anm immediate drop to 0 when I hit ignition,....

I reallllly think I need to get under there and check the connections at the solenoid and motor .....

Jeff, that's how us geezers end up with a shop full of tools and equipment. Each car creates opportunities (excuses?) to buy another "necessity". Also makes it easier to give family and friends birthday and Christmas wish lists. Old cars are so useful that way!!

Well,...I have not been able to pick up the ramps yet. So I have not checked the starter motor/solenoid connections yet.

But I did get a 4 click start today,...and the sound is definately coming from the direction of the starter motor/solenoid. After 4 clicks,...it fired up. Been run off and on all day before that.....and it was cold too....no heat flooding involved in this equation,.

Also,...from what I can tell by peering through the headers,...there are 2 LARGE gauge wires going to it,...a red and a blue. Then there appear to be 2 smaller gauge black wires...and I think I see one of the black wires coming from the FRONT of the solenoid area then loopiong back out the back of the heat wrapping it is all in. (The heat wrapping further adds to the difficulty of seeing what wires are where...)

I assume this small device (possibly cylindrical) is the solenoid??

Anyway if anyone has any comments on this info or the wires....great!

Either way I will be getting under there and checking all this out hopefully tomorrow.....

The cylindrical thingy is the solenoid. I dont know if you have an HEI didtributor or not. If you do, you should have the (+) cable hooked to the largest post on the solenoid, then 2-3 fusable links on the SAME post. The small post on the inside edge,(next to the block) marked "s," should have one wire on it. Factory color is usually purple.
If you have a point type distributor, the other small post, marked "r" will have a wire going to the (+) side of the ignition coil. If you have electronic ignition, this wire is not needed. In fact, newer solenoids dont have the R post.

I think I have an HEI distributer....there's a huge High Voltage box sitting on top of it that protrudes a steel post down into the distributer......Otherwise it is a round distrib with a spinning box with a contact on it that makes contact with the spark wires.....
Does that sound like HEI or points? (Everyone please laugh at this one.......)

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Self deprecating humor is a good thing Jeff!!

Sounds like one of those HEI thingies to me.;)

Yes bob,...I learned long ago that one's ignorance can serve as anothers entertainment. :-) And that makes me a very entertaining person.....


I cannot wait to get under there tonight with my new Rhino Ramps and hopefully,....find corroded contacts....if not....argh!

On a side note........is it possible for a car to have 2 voltage regulators,........on my passenger side firewall I have a small black box (2"x1.5") mounted with a 3 prong plug and another 1 prong plug that is connected (and runs behind the engine over towards the drivers side,....have not been able to trace yet)........and on the DRIVERS side firewall I have another small box which has a bolt on it with alot of the wires attached to it with eyelets. This has mystified even the 'smart' Advanced Auto employees (I am family there now).....

UH,.....seriously on the passenger side box??

It IS hooked up currently,...has a 3-wire plug going onto the 3 prong part,...and a single wire plug going onto the single prong.....unfortunately the are hard to trace as the wiring is not very well color coded and runs behind the engine in a 'impossible' to view way. I just wonder what purpose they serve?.....


I have spent hours and hours finding wires,.....tracing them and finding out they dead end somewhere .....this car seems to have been re-wired like 3 times without ever removing the old wiring....makes for a great time.

if I knew enough I would LOVE to rip it all out and re-wire from scratch......theres only the dash, lights, radio, wiper motor and ignition/starter system......

Poured rain last nite so I was unable to ramp the car and check the solenoid connections..etc..etc.

Upon talking to my mechanic today....he suggested the motor is going bad. He said the engine stops in 1 of 3 positions (rotational?) and that there is a bad spot on the 'armature' (I think he used that word) and that is where I get the click,....but it nudges it just enough so that the 2nd firing is on a good spot and thats why the car fires. He suggests I go out and buy a new Hitachi starter motor .....and install it my self.

He said if it was a ground problem, it would happen more often and not always fire the 2nd time around. He said a loose conection is possible,....and to check...but he doubts it...once again due to the fact it clicks,...then fires.

Does any of this make any sense or sound reasonable?

OK Streetz....I will assume you disagree with his diagnosis :-)

Good call on the 4 try start too. I shall investigate further.....

I will ask him about the valves,.....and I guess theres nothing about what he said that is correct?...Any chance I misunderstood partially and he was just refering to the starter motor stopping in 1 of a few spots instead of a random spot>?

Or is there any credit to the conecpt that there is something bad in the starter motor like a 'bad spot' that if it lands there it will not fire until it has been 'click nudged' to a good spot>?

Sounds like im talking about a dog..."good spot! Good boy....bad spot! Down Spot!...Get off my leg Spot!"

Yeah,...I gotta garaeg,...but there;s not alot of room in there....I would prefer to do it in the driveway where I can slide in from the front.....don't ask :-)

NOTE: I have a 'new' "Powermaster 9000" 160 ft-lb Chevy Mini Starter installed now...(invoice says $139).....is that enough for a 454 with 12:1 compression>? I read that 12:1 compression should have AT LEAST a 180 ft-lb starter? Could that lead to starter failure?

I guess I will get under there and confirm ground and connections...the heavy guage red comes from the batt and I do notice that the heavy guage blue is a ground,...grounding on the underside of the firewall....maybe thats a problematic connection...perhaps routing that to the frame or block would be better?

If all connections look good,....and it happens again...I will get a new starter motor.....(preferably from an aftermarket dealer that will accept it as a return if I 'still' have problems)

Any recomendations as far as ft-lb torque?....Is it possible to get one with a remote solenoid since my current motor position is deadly close to the 'massive' headers that surely generate 8600 degrees? (Current motor wrapped in head shield)...

Advanced Auto has a pretty liberal policy,......but well see...

BUT WHAT ABOUT the ft-lb torque requirements on my 12:1 compression>>(see previous post),,,,..IS IT possible that engine requires a 180 ft-lb or 200 ft-lb motor and my current 160 ft-lb motor is heating up due to the higher torque requirements and starting to fail?......any logic here??

it IS TRUE that if a motor is torque underpowered and cranking an engine that needs more torque the motor will generate excessive internal heat and fail prematurely....(or so I have read)...?

It could happen. You sure that's a 12/1 engine? Are you buying race gasoline for it? If not, and you're using 92-3-4, whatever they sell down there, then it's probably not 12/1.

Yes Bob,....the engine is actually a 454 bored out again 30 over......and has compression of 12:1. Built recently by a very reputable and known shop in the Tampa area. Has about 300 miles on it.

I do run 100 octane race gas in it. Usually about 11 gallons race fuel with 5 gal 93 octane. Too much 93 and it detonates...very bad. Timing set at proper,...no advance or retard.


So like I said,....after just finding out the motor, even though it';s new....is a 160 ft-lb motor.......maybe its starting to go.......?

OK..Streetz.....not a bad idea but I do not want to lower the compression. Just don't. And money is somewhat of an issue....I only have access to 100 that I can pump into the car,...they also sell 110 w/lead but it is only legal to pump into a container....then off their property pour it in the car. This seems like a hassle...to have a smelly gas can in the car...plus I smoke cigars,...and I could just see this empty can of 110 in the backseat and the vapors ignite.....damaging my beautiful car! (forget about me)...

TELL ME MORE ABOUT THIS SWITCH! I understand the concept...but where in the 'wiring scheme' would the switch go....just onto the wire that lights to the coil? (My coil is an aftermarket doo-hicky mounted on top of the distrib in a big box)...Then when I fire it and when I hear the engine cranking I release the key and hit the switch to engage the coil/distrib?

""""HOW"""" does this reduce strain on the starter motor????Especially if my motor is under torqued for the job????????

That sounds like a great project for me this weekend...definately a cool idea. I WILL do it.....

BUT i am not sure if that will have any effect on the click, since the starter motor never even engages,....the circuit stops at the solenoid.....so it does not spin at all...hence whether the engine is firing or not will make no difference......CORRECT?.....Doesnt really seem like a solution to the click problem since it seems electrical in nature at the solenoid or starter motor?....RIGHT?

I spoke to a tech at PowerMaster (the maker of my starter)....and HE seems to point towards a ground issue. He said that it is not the best lb-ft torque for my engine,...but if it starts it fine...that is not the source of the click....it may go bad eventually from being under-torqued,....but it will get harder to start..etc..etc first. Not just a click.

He also said even if I find and fix a ground problem, the starter may be damaged...something about 'pitting' due to higher arcing?

So I guess until I get under there and check the wires for sure....I just wont know anything for certain about the ground issue.
Damn! Ofourse,..buying a new starter and having a pro install it correctly checking the wires and ignition and such may be the answer too....I just dont relish the idea of a $150 starter and another $100+ or so in labor to fix/diagnose........

Yeah,....I am in Clearwater,....riight under the big blob of white you see on your weather screen......supposed to get like 12 inches of rain in the next 24 hours......I will have to drain the pool down some and get the kayak out.....:-)
Time to hit the video store for sure.....

You talked me into it streetz....I think I can handle a 2 bolt unbolt/rebolt.....and wires don't scare me at all..that part I have experience with (well,....computer guts anyway..:-)
I got the tools for it.....been buyin lotsa tools since I got her...

And fixin it and learnin how was half my reason for getting it in the 1st place!

Since you started this:

1) Any 'special/sensitive' alignments I should worry about when puttin it back on?

2) How much of a hassle will the think 'heat wrap' blanket its in be to re-install? Do I just pull it off? How does it attach and stay put upon a re-install....

3) Advanced can bench test the solenoid/starter motor I have now to see if it';s all working?....That would reaaaally help.

If I can manage this one,....maybe I'll be ready to install those nifty chrome valve covers I've had my eye on! Although I hear stories about torque wrenches and exact screw pressures and screw order tightening......maybe not.....

Hey doc.
It's been five days you've been taking advice and you still haven't tightened up your loose wires. It's a two minute job. At this rate changing your valve covers will be a two year project. You'll probably wear out your keyboard first.
AL

OK AL......you better hope I do have loose wires :-) (so do I)...
The problem is that I must ramp the car in order to get to any of the motor/solenoid wires. There is not enough room in my garage to ramp it far back enough from all the crap in front of the car so I can roll my 6'4 frame in from the front of the car.....I cannot go in from the sides with the ramps there. And for some decent light as well,....this needs to be done in the driveway.
It has rained hard every single evening for at least the last 5 days....and it has gotten worse (check the news,...Im on Florida's west coast).

So there you have it AL,....the reason I have not checked those wires.
And FYI - I have in the 4 weeks I've had the car, replaced the headliner, sail panels, rear quarters, door panels, kick panels, removed and re-painted all the trim. Replaced all interior knobs.
Touched up exterior paint, re-finished sill-panels, cleaned up over 20 dead end wires in the engine compartment, masked and painted the block, masked and painted engine compartment, installed new alternator, new Griffin radiator and shroud. Whilst working 60+ hours a week.

Sorry If I cannot get to this fast enough. Figured in the meantime I would still discuss it with those willing.

Thanks for the help though....I will get to the wires, and email you the results...

Dr. Jim

Just kiddin ya doc. I usually leave that to streets but he's been too easy on ya.
I've been watching the weather down there because my daughter lives near Orlando. She hates snow. Now she spends nine months of the year trying to stay cool in front of her A/C instead of five months trying to stay warm. She works for a Mickey Mouse outfit down there. She used to be Snow White but quit that for an inside job.
It looks like tuesday before the rain lets up. stay dry.
AL

Worse than that Richard, he's got a nice set of Cal Customs on there now..................................kids!!!!! Ya dress 'em, feed 'em, send 'em to school, and then this!!!:rolleyes:

12 inches of rain in one day? And you guys think it rains here all the time? I'm reminded of Cosby's first album, the one with the Noah bit. The voice comes from the clouds: "HOW LONG CAN YOU TREAD WATER?" :LOL:

Yeah...Nova means no go.....:

I know AL,...Streetz has been so busy being helpful he forgot to be a wise-_ss :-) Daughter in Orlanda huh? I've got some friends there that work in TV.....haven't visited Mickey though, even though I've lived in florida for 9 years now....the weather will be passing over the next day,....should be nice on Sunday. At least she does not have to worry about tidal surges!

I know about cheap chrome,.....and Bob, I am aware of the quality covers that are on there,...they actually look real nice after that engine cleaning. I will post some new engine pics with all the cleaning and re-paint....I can highlight some mystery boxes and we'll see who can figure out what the hell they do. More little boxes with wires than there should be, thats for sure.....

ASAP I will get at those wires and check ground and all connections. If anything looks wierd I'll fixit, if everything looks great and solid then maybe I'll remove and take it to Advance to be tested.

Thanks again for all the help,!....Some of you guys should set up 1-900-CAR-HELP phone lines,....could make some extra cash. 'Course I prefer the forum!

Ofcourse it had to be taken!......Figures.
You probably got $2.99 on your phone bill too :-)

Here's a coupla pics of 3 'black boxes' in the car....

- Circle "A" is probably somtin obvious! Laugh now.
- Circle 'B" from what I can tell has alot of wires screwed onto
a plate coming off it...otherwise it is a black box. I 'think' one of the wires from the starter solenoid is screwed on here..I THINK.

- Circle "C" is another mystery black box ......wires seem to disappear behind the block in a very nebuloous part of my engine,...and probably come out the drivers side and tie into all that spaghetti there.....

Figured this would give ya something to ponder whilst I check my connections....

The rain ahs stopped and it's drying up.....should now once and for all if I have a corroded or loose connections tonite!...
I CAN FINALLY SEE that I have a HEAVY gauge ground going from the battery top the starter motor AS WELL as the HEAVY guage pos. form battery to starter motor. My battery's third ground goes to frame in the trunk.....So my starter actually has a straight ground from battery,..NOT from frame or firewall.....

2nd set of pics.....

Circles a and B...

Hey Jeff, let me help you out here. When you put those LOVELY chrome valve covers on your short send me those scurvy old aluminum pieces of junk ya got there. That way you won't have to wait for recycle day for the trash.:p I'm here for ya buddy!!

No Bob,....you cannot have my valve covers, I am going to sell them and give the money to an orphanage. Seriously though.....no chrome comin my way.....I have gotten the impression these are some nice Covers...(not sure why)...but nonetheless they do not leak a drop.....and I should leave well enough alone.

OK StreetZ...good .gif there,....I knew it was coming if I posted those pix....but I still had to know.....

As far as the "heater" box goes,.....I've got those up on a pay-site....if you wanna see em' you can sign on with your credit card at www.hotbox.com :-)

(Jeff now wondering where the heater box is?....Does my car even have one?....Half the vent/duct work is gone and none of the factory dash controls work at all....I don't even have working defrost.....:-(



thx guys....

OK....YES, I believe they cover the valves....the 'rockers' that control the fuel inflow/exhaust exflow. rockers controlled by pushrods that controlled by the lobes on the cam. The cam being controlled by the pistons downstroke....all working in synchronicity. Almost a perpetual motion machine (cept for the fuel).

Hmmm... lobes on cam (jeff does NOT get cam info sheet to look at)...I would say 4 lobes to control 2x4=8 pushrods.
8 pistons. 8 valve rockers (correct word?)....

As for lights in my apetures?....Got me there?...My digital camera has an aperture....and I have it set to stay open too long...hence the blurry pictures?....:-)

btw- I lucked out again,...worse than the 1-900car-help though,...my joke website to see my heater box is a REAL website....and I'm sure you can guess what kind. oops!

oops. The rockers that open and close the valves I should say....

oops again,...bad math.....2 push rods per cylinder X 8 cylinders = 16 pushrods.....

OK....OK.....but hey,....I got most of the theory of the engine...its just all the peripheral systems....and the APPLICATION of theoretical knowledge that is my biggest downfall (that and the fact I didn't know a radiator hose from'a garden hose a month ago)........the journey continues....maybe I'll take a night class at a local tech school ....

btw - Whats with the continual ref. to "RAT"?

I think you guys have spent too much time at that hotbox.com site.:eek: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Yeah, Brent told me that and $2.75 will get me a latte at Starbucks! Oh................wait.....................they just imposed a 10 cent tax on coffee drinks, go figure!!:(

Thanks guys.