Electric fuel pump, or.......??

I'm disgusted with myself - I really don't like where my fuel line runs. It's too close to the steering/steering u-joint and with all the brake lines and master cylinder, difficult to plumb around. While I haven't completely "scoped" out my options yet, may decide to take the easy way out and use an electric fuel pump and replumb the car down the right frame rail instead of the normal left for a Ford engined car. I've used the Holley red pumps before and really dislike listening to the constant 'chatter' plus their reliability could be better. I see that Edelbrock has a 6.5psi unit as does Carter. Is anyone using either of these - and if so, what is your experience as far as noise and reliability. My life would be easier if there was a low pressure in-line unit - though there may be one listed elsewhere then Summit or Jeg's catalogs

Another consideration - plumb inside the frame rail, but the car is 80% assembled and doing that while laying on my back is not something my old bones really needs. Then a third, plumb inside of the car - Ken Thurm and I had a discussion about that - he will do his cars that way, but I'm a bit reluctant.

So.....with that said, I need some brainstorming.:o

used the holley s for many years on the street have used damping mount turn to page 1314 in your Mcmaster -car book still are lound not much you can do with it but live with it and use the mounts

i use a holley blue been the same one for 10 years no problems.

I've always used Holley pumps and have found some of the same models are noisier than others for some reason. The one in my Jeep sounded like an air compressor running, and the same pump in my T is almost silent. :confused:

What ever brand you choose, install a GOOD cartridge style fuel filter before the pump, not one of those cheapy inline ones. Electric fuel pumps hate even the smallest particle of dirt and will stop pumping.

Don

Spend the money and buy a Gerotor style pump, not a rotary vane pump like the low end holleys. Accel and others make them. Holley also makes a Gerotor pump. Guess what, they are more expensive. Use a 3/16 rubber pad behind the mount and it will be pretty quiet. If you want the best performance then run a 12-14 psig pump with a bypass regulator and return line to the tank. You only need 8-9 GPH flow per 100 HP. The fuel itself does no work so any extra you use turns into heat. That's why many people experience short lives with non external bypass pumps.

Kitz

I once ran a cheapy A/C pump I got at the local autoparts store. It chattered more than a Holley, but it was "on-demand". Once the carb was full, it stopped. Hardly ever heard it.

I've bought my last Holley, and threw it in the trash. It left me stranded twice, and I had a good filter in front of it. I replaced it with an Edelbrock, used a thick rubber pad between the pump and the frame, and it's pretty quiet. I like Kitz's idea, though. Next project will have something like a Mallory 4142.

I've gone through 2 Holley red pumps in 4 years... just replaced the last one today with a holley blue... hope to have better luck. yes they're loud but I can't hear it over the exhaust :D

The gerotor type pump is what I am really considering - if that's the way I end up going

I just spent the best part of the last hour under the car with a tape measure and a short chunk of 3/8 tubing. While I've made other errors in judgment while building this car, this one may prove to be the biggest pain where I sit since it is mostly assembled, wired and (was??) within a week of first fire. There just is not a lot of room between the rails of a Model A (TCI) chassis:CRY: What makes it worse is that TCI installed the motor mounts over an inch too far back, then Brookville supplied a 3" recessed firewall instead of the 5" that I ordered and of course needed major surgery to work. This forced me to install the steering column lower then I wanted, all of which has conspired to tighten up every thing space wise. I really want to use my mechanical pump rather then an electric as just installing it will mean LOTS of on-my-back work and time (and more then a few dollars). The costs - not as much of a big factor as just doing it in the time frame I've set for myself and with as little "personal pain" as possible.

I'll 'keep you posted'

Well, here's my two cents worth... First, let me say I don't like aftermarket electric fuel pumps, period!:mad: I am using one on my roadster only because the Chevy S-10 engine has no place to put a mechanical pump.:o I am using a Mr. Gasket inline "micro electric" #12S. I don't know what it sounds like yet and I can't speak to its reliability. I picked this one because the guy at my local parts store assures me that it is a common pump available at many stores across the country. My theory is, and always has been, if I break down in Ballzitch, Arkansas on Sunday afternoon, I don't want to be stuck in a motel for days waiting for some high-zoot one-off part to be delivered.

Having said all that, if I have a choice between using a stock type mechanical pump or an electric, I will take the mechanical pump every time. They are generally more reliable and they have the added safety feature that they stop pumping when the engine stops running.;)

I once encountered a situation where the fuel line was already installed on the right (passenger) side frame rail, but an engine swap put the fuel pump on the left side. Rather than re-plumb the whole thing, I put an extension on the fuel line and ran it across the front crossmember and then back to the fuel pump on the right. I bent the line to fit the contour of the crossmember and anchored it in place beside the brake line that was already there. It was almost invisible when everything else was in place and, as far as I know, it's still there today... Anyway, there's a possibility you may not have considered.:3dSMILE:

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Originally Posted by J. Robinson

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Having said all that, if I have a choice between using a stock type mechanical pump or an electric, I will take the mechanical pump every time. They are generally more reliable and they have the added safety feature that they stop pumping when the engine stops running.;)
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Good point. In general one would use an oil pressure switch in conjunction with an electric pump to accomplish this.

Kitz

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Originally Posted by J. Robinson

Well, here's my two cents worth... First, let me say I don't like aftermarket electric fuel pumps, period!:mad: I am using one on my roadster only because the Chevy S-10 engine has no place to put a mechanical pump.:o I am using a Mr. Gasket inline "micro electric" #12S. I don't know what it sounds like yet and I can't speak to its reliability. I picked this one because the guy at my local parts store assures me that it is a common pump available at many stores across the country. My theory is, and always has been, if I break down in Ballzitch, Arkansas on Sunday afternoon, I don't want to be stuck in a motel for days waiting for some high-zoot one-off part to be delivered.

Having said all that, if I have a choice between using a stock type mechanical pump or an electric, I will take the mechanical pump every time. They are generally more reliable and they have the added safety feature that they stop pumping when the engine stops running.;)

I once encountered a situation where the fuel line was already installed on the right (passenger) side frame rail, but an engine swap put the fuel pump on the left side. Rather than re-plumb the whole thing, I put an extension on the fuel line and ran it across the front crossmember and then back to the fuel pump on the right. I bent the line to fit the contour of the crossmember and anchored it in place beside the brake line that was already there. It was almost invisible when everything else was in place and, as far as I know, it's still there today... Anyway, there's a possibility you may not have considered.:3dSMILE:

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First of all - I agree with you about mechanical vs electric fuel pumps, which is the reason that I have the mech version on the engine now opposed to the Holley black that I originally had plumbed in place. Additionally, I can go into any parts store and for very few bucks, find a replacement SB Ford pump if I'm on the road.

I just pulled the existing line out and am about to go to the parts store for some 3/16 "sacrificial" tubing for fit up plus order up a couple of pieces of 3/8" SS from McMaster-Carr. I have already "sacrificed" a short length of 3/8"CS tubing that I had, for a way around my roadblocks and find that with some judicious planning and the right bends along with a bracket, I appear to have room - but just barely:D .

I did see that Mr Gasket 12S pump - and it looked interesting plus cheap but I did wonder how it works - micro electronics to me is saying that here's a "black box". It works, but we wont tell you how:) . Is it like one of those Wagner vibrator spray guns? Is it a rotary vane? A gearotor? Let us know how it works.

Well most of my experience comes from the diesel end. the Carter pumps generally don't do the job either on the diesel or gas. Should you go this way they are about 120 bucks for the 4601. Get the marine epoxy coated one. these are relatively quiet if used with isolators. You'll need a fuel pressure regulator.

There is an inline Carter 5001 that is much better but still subject to failure. You still need a regulator. Diesel guys like this one.

I have a "blue" that so far is ok. noisy but pumps. I need to get a spare however. That seemes to be the key. Also you might as well make you fuel line with a "zipper" so you can change the pump at road side inthe rain and sleet. haha. Just add a handfull of ball valves. That what the wise diesel guys do.

You can spend $400+ on the gerotor/filter pumps and say solved. Diesel guys spend 500-600 on these and think nothing of it........still occasionally fail in the sleet and rain of course.

Hate to live with it but that the story on electric fuel pumps.

Stay with the mechanical on gass if at all possible.

The last two fuel tanks we built, we used stock GM in-tank pumps...you can buy them in either low pressure or high pressure models (either throttle body injection or high pressure injection). If you buy the AC part number, they are about $42 each. We put two in each tank and wire them separately so you can swap pumps if one fails. The fuel lines from the pump have check valves to prevent back flow from one pump to the other.

The pumps are submersed in gas so they are quiet...and run cool.

The only downside is that you have to have a large enough access hole to get them thru...maybe a 3 inch dia hole? We have a bigger hole since we used fuel cell foam and had to have room to stuff it.

mike in tucson

I got my replacement SS tubing from McMaster Carr yesterday afternoon. I'm about ready to fit up my new line in an attempt to stay with the mechanical pump. I have two 90* bends with only 2" between them and are using some "gold plated" SS AN- elbows to do that. I do need to make four more fairly tight turns, but not 90's. Yes, I do have a tubing bender - mediocre quality for 3/8". My concern is kinking. I used a sacrificial piece hydraulic line and a bit thicker, and instant kink!! Others have said sand inside the tubing then the bender will work fairly well to keep the turns reasonably neat. Has anyone tried that method? This SS tubing takes too long to get to me as well as being fairly expensive to waste

All those reasons are why I use aluminum tubing for fuel lines......:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

I really don't understand all the smack down on electric pumps. An electric pump is a MECHANICAL PUMP that uses a DC motor to drive it. All of your electricity is generated by machinery that use electric driven mechanical pumps for auxiliaries for example. Uhhhh they run 24/7. A Gerotor pump is pretty damn bullet proof. Thats why they are one of the most popular mud pumps in the oil drilling industry. If you think that a rubber pulsating bladder (ie automotive mechanical pump) is more robust than two high strength metal gears that don't even touch (Gerotor) then bless your hearts.

That said it ain't usually the electric pump's fault, be it Gerotor or RV, that it has problems; it is generally misapplied or specified for the application intended.

I had a 427 Vet that had a mechanical pump and would run out of gas above 4500 rpm. Guess what an electric pump solved that problem. I ran a Carter electric pump in 70's and never had a problem. You just cannot make me believe they are ANY less dependable than mechanical pumps.

And finally, I challenge any of you to show me a mechanical driven pump on any modern factory car.

Practice your bends on cheap steel and not aluminum stock. It will have similar modulus and strength properties of stainless steel. Not everyone is a natural plumber. :LOL: The sand trick will indeed help but you sure don't want that ending up in your carb.

Kitz

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Originally Posted by kitz

I really don't understand all the smack down on electric pumps. An electric pump is a MECHANICAL PUMP that uses a DC motor to drive it. All of your electricity is generated by machinery that use electric driven mechanical pumps for auxiliaries for example. Uhhhh they run 24/7. A Gerotor pump is pretty damn bullet proof. Thats why they are one of the most popular mud pumps in the oil drilling industry. If you think that a rubber pulsating bladder (ie automotive mechanical pump) is more robust than two high strength metal gears that don't even touch (Gerotor) then bless your hearts.

That said it ain't usually the electric pump's fault, be it Gerotor or RV, that it has problems; it is generally misapplied or specified for the application intended.

I had a 427 Vet that had a mechanical pump and would run out of gas above 4500 rpm. Guess what an electric pump solved that problem. I ran a Carter electric pump in 70's and never had a problem. You just cannot make me believe they are ANY less dependable than mechanical pumps.

And finally, I challenge any of you to show me a mechanical driven pump on any modern factory car.

Practice your bends on cheap steel and not aluminum stock. It will have similar modulus and strength properties of stainless steel. Not everyone is a natural plumber. :LOL: The sand trick will indeed help but you sure don't want that ending up in your carb.

Kitz

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Kitz (and all),
I prefer a mechanical pump on a carburated engine. I have a need for 5-7psig and - not 45-100psig and for sure a lot less flow. Additionally, I do not want to run additional fuel lines, a return line.

Dependability? The standard mechanical fuel pump has enough plus is available for a SB Ford at ANY auto parts store. A rotary vane pump - Holley's e.g., they ain't so great in my experience, and I have run them extensively. A gerotor pump - well if I could have found one that supplied 14psig that could have been regulated down to 5-6 without a return line and special regulator, I might have considered using one.

As far as a new car - yep, they all have some sort of electric pump - but they are all fuel injected vehicles, have the need for high pressure, have return lines and are for the most part controlled somewhere in the system by electronics, i.e. a computerized fuel management system. I have a carburated engine, single fuel line that had some chassis interference with the only electronics being the MSD distributor and 6 series control box.

I opened this discussion because I felt that I might need to replumb differently and would have considered an electric pump - I do have to do some rerouting - but don't have to reroute/rebuild everything - and with an after market and now fully loaded 'A' chassis, not an easy task. I did spend a bunch more time researching viable alternatives - and do have to thank all who responded. There are other alternatives that now fall under the shoulda/coulda/woulda heading, but.....

Dave

I use ss hard lines everywhere---with a decent bender there isn't any problem bending up to .049 wall---generally I will use .035 for the bigger id.
A bigger roadblock is making AN 37 degree flares in the ss----it takes a GOOD tool for 37 and a 45 can't be used----if you don't have the 37 tool use compression fittings on it----
For templets, I use a lot of coat hangers or welding rods---

Jerry

I plumbed my A-bone with Swagelok fittings - but back then, I had a free supply.

my coat hangers are free

A friend worked in the supply room of one of the large companies near here and plumbed all his lines including the nitrous w/Swage-Locs. He got fired:eek: But it sure was nice looking plumbing.

I do have a good Rigid brand 37* flare tool. Unfortunately my bender for 3/8" tubing is mediocre and my very good 3/16 bender wont quite hack it!!!:LOL: . I've been dragging my feet today(mowed the lawn, rebuilt the weed whacker recoil, etc) and tomorrow may wander a bit to see if I can find and invest in a better bender. For templates, I generally use 3/16" steel brake line - it USED to be fairly cheap - like $2-$4 for a 4 or 5 foot length - no more, $5 to $7 on Friday.

with the bend radius being different--you are wasting your time/money using 3/16 tube--if you want, buy some of the 3/8 tube at the auto parts store and make some pattern bends of the radius you bender is---then you can use them for mockup/visualizing----you don't need to fab a whole complete pattern up, just the bend areas and twists---

and go buy a good 3/8 bender-----