Starter Dragging. Still!

Ok- I have tried shimming both sides even and each side one at a time. Nothing is stopping my starter from dragging. The flywheel looks fine! I even put a new starter on and same thing!

It will engage, turn the car over, but then it drags and makes that sound!
Someone told me it could be a voltage drop problem? If so, where should I start looking? I have a voltage meter and it shows 12.5 at the + starter post.

The guy a bought the car from has a ground strap from the frame to the outside starter bolt head. Just FYI. Is this normal?

Just for grins I'd take jumper cables and double up on both cables..If it improves you will know you have a voltage(or connection) issue.. Another thing to check is to see if either of the cables is getting hot when you crank on it. If theres heat ,there is a connection that's weak... The ground strap was probably added to try to fix the problem.

what make is the motor?

It's either a 1968, 327 or a 1669-1979 350 according to the block casting numbers.

does the starter use the rear brace?

The starter bolts are not offset (they are inline.) There is no brace to speak of on the car right now. Starter is just bolted up.

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Originally Posted by bucs012

The starter bolts are not offset (they are inline.) There is no brace to speak of on the car right now. Starter is just bolted up.

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From your description, among other things, it sounds as if the bendix is weak.

ran into a similar problem awhile ago on a 350, some one told me to change out the starter to one from a vette.( the nose is diff ) fixed my problem, hope this helps. good luck
Dave

If the bushings are bad it could be dragging the armature on the fields. Use you volt meter at the battery and see how far down it goes when you crank and how it rocovers. It shouldn't go below 11, I think, and should come back pretty close to the same battery voltage. A voltage drop test is done by setting the meter to volts dc, hold one end right on the neg battery post, not the cable end, and the other on the starter housing. Have someone crank it and note the reading. It needs to be less than 1 volt. Do the same with the pos, holdig it to the posts, not on the cable. Also anyplace that has high resistance will be warm to the touch, might even burn you.
And FWIW, starters don't have bendix anymore unless you have something pretty old. It's called a starter drive and it will just kick the starter out when it gets bad.

I will update you guys on this. I have tried 3 different brands of starters. Still does the same thing.....

Here is what I noticed. If I turn the key to Start and hold like normal time on my Nova and newer car,. it still drags a little after the key is released.
HOWEVER, If I turn the key to Start and let it start and then release the key "quickly" it does not drag.

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Originally Posted by willowbilly3

A voltage drop test is done by setting the meter to volts dc, hold one end right on the neg battery post, not the cable end, and the other on the starter housing. Have someone crank it and note the reading. It needs to be less than 1 volt. Do the same with the pos, holdig it to the posts, not on the cable. Also anyplace that has high resistance will be warm to the touch, might even burn you.

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I am going to try this. To make sure I understand. When I do the Positive side test (noted at the end above) I put the red wire from volt meter to the + battery post and the - wire from volt meter anywhere on the starter housing. Right?

Both the above tests should read no more than 1 volt?

Are you using the same solenoid that was on the original starter?

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Hey...hand me those Channel Locks....:whacked:
Bendix, over running, self engaging, starter drive.
A self-engaging Starter drive gear, the gear moves into engagement when the Starter starts spinning and automatically disengages when the starter stops.

There are many drives out now. But, yes, there is a Bendix drive still yet. :)

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Forgive me for my slip in liguistics, bendix is a term that was most commonly applied to the earlier bendix drive with a spring, like the Y block Fords use and I am unaware of any new automobile having used one in the last few decades, but that doesn't mean much. The spiral cut shaft type was technically a Bendix Folo-Thru drive and became more commonly referred to as just a starter drive in any local which I have had the privilage of spinning wrenches. A few old, old farmers still call them bendix.

But that doesn't help anything here
You have to do the voltage drop test while cranking, or starter engaged. And when you test the positive side you have to be on the posative terminal and the posative post on the starter, did I not word this correctly before? It is harder to explain than it is to do.

This is all good stuff guys, but it doesn't help to solve the problem.
Since he has tried at least three different starters, IMHO, that eliminates the starter as the problem. IMO that leaves four areas of concern.
1. A weak battery or a weak cell in the battery which can be verified by a load test on the battery.
2. Too small gauge positive battery cable. IMHO anything under 6 gauge is too small especially if we're talking a run of much more than two feet since as the length of the cable increases so does its impedance which will cause an undesired voltage drop.
3. An ignition switch that is close to being worn out.
4. The starter solenoid. If the contacts are burned it will cause it to stick and will also produce an undesirable voltage drop.
Personally, I would start at the starter solenoid.

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Your absolutely correct nfday. I retract all I said. Except the farmer part...:LOL:

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Thanks, Denny. I'm just an old shade tree mechanic and if I have any expertise at all it's in the electrical end. At one time or another I have encountered all four of the situations I posted.

Nothing to add, just a good post I want to follow!

On a different starter note had a friend with a high compression 327 in a 67 vette, who couldn't get it to turn over when the car was warm. The exhaust would heat up the starter and the resistence of electricity I guess would increase. He solved it by getting a high compression low profile starter. Now it works like a champ. Didn't drive his car for a year because of this problem!:eek:

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Originally Posted by stovens

Nothing to add, just a good post I want to follow!

On a different starter note had a friend with a high compression 327 in a 67 vette, who couldn't get it to turn over when the car was warm. The exhaust would heat up the starter and the resistence of electricity I guess would increase. He solved it by getting a high compression low profile starter. Now it works like a champ. Didn't drive his car for a year because of this problem!:eek:

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That's a fairly expensive fix. IMHO it would have been cheaper to install a heat wrap around the starer and/or replacing the positive battery cable with one of a larger gauge and better insulation.

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Your absolutely correct nfday. I retract all I said. Except the farmer part...:LOL:

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No disrespect to farmers intended and I was just talking about where I live. I grew up on a farm/ranch myself.
NFTDAY, sorry for correcting you on the word usage, didn't mean it the way it sounded and it had nothing to do with the problem.

Denny, I know being right and not being challenged or corrected on any level is very important to you so I offer no further comments on my sources for the nomenclature.
I have offered all I can with the advice to do the routine testing so I bow out of this conversation.

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Originally Posted by NTFDAY

That's a fairly expensive fix. IMHO it would have been cheaper to install a heat wrap around the starer and/or replacing the positive battery cable with one of a larger gauge and better insulation.

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Actually it was about $145.00 for a 25k car. I helped with the install, so that was free. Not too bad in my book for peace of mind.

Why did every one drop the starter brace question???? In the past ,and I work on small blocks more than anything else, If the brace is not on the starter you will have fits sooner or later. It will actualy put the starter into a bind. FYI there is more than one length for the brace too depending on block, and starter. Just because he said there isn't one doden't mean there shouldn't be one.

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Originally Posted by NTFDAY

Since he has tried at least three different starters, IMHO, that eliminates the starter as the problem. IMO that leaves four areas of concern.
1. A weak battery or a weak cell in the battery which can be verified by a load test on the battery.
2. Too small gauge positive battery cable. IMHO anything under 6 gauge is too small especially if we're talking a run of much more than two feet since as the length of the cable increases so does its impedance which will cause an undesired voltage drop.
3. An ignition switch that is close to being worn out.
4. The starter solenoid. If the contacts are burned it will cause it to stick and will also produce an undesirable voltage drop.
Personally, I would start at the starter solenoid.

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1. I have had the battery tested and a load test done on the battery while in the car. All check out OK last summer.

2. I have what I say is a NORMAL sized + battery cable from the battery in the trunk, down along the frame and to the starter. This is in a 32 ford? Think I should go larger since I am running the length of the car?

3. Ignition switch- I will have to check into this. It is a tilt column/switch out of a GM Van.

4. I don't think it would be the starter solenoid since I have tried 3 starters and they made no difference......I could not be so lucky!**)

Has any one thought of recommending to double check the tooth count on the flexplate/flywheel? He mentioned "that noise". What did the noise sound like? Gears not meshing? Growling? Drive over run? Drive bouncing off the flexplate? Somewhere, the geometry doesn't fit.

Have you tried starting the car with a jumper wire to see if the starter hangs up then???? If it doesn't, could be a faulty or sticky switch......

well I'm an old farm boy(soon to be 68) Bendix starter springs replaced the need for hand cranks----

In this particular case I see several areas of concern and also ones that are common in trunk mounted batteries, fiberglass cars/boats, Chev engines/starters, systems with poor grounds, systems with electric fans, and various other owner/builder/buyer acquired problems

First the starter issue itself----on a chev motor/starter they must be mounted with gennie chev knurled starter bolts, and if it is set up for it the brace on the end should be used.

On the trunk mounted battery-----because of the length of the run, use larger cable( I use welding cable) , also run a ground wire from the battery to the block, starter, bell housing , alternator mount---if you do not do this you will continually have electrical issues

If it starts normal when you snap release the switch, you either need a new switch or adapt a new starting procedure

to bypass all this--- hook up a battery directly to the starter only and use a jumper wire to start---use the ignition switch in the on position so the engine will start, but use a separate battery /remote switch to operate the starter for diagnostics--

If you do not have chev starter bolts with a good knurl, go get some---you will only need the length as there are several various lengths

Clean all frame/body ground points

Park on a hill so you can push start it by rolling downhill

Luck to ya

Jerry

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Have you tried starting the car with a jumper wire to see if the starter hangs up then???? If it doesn't, could be a faulty or sticky switch......

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Sounds good to me and simple enough to try! How do I rig up the jumper wire?

Thanks for all the suggestions.

the fact that you can eliminate the problem with a key switch technique, makes me seriously question the start switch.

have you checked the ignition switch on your steering column to make sure it,s set up properly. sounds like it,s out of adjustment . craig

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Originally Posted by bucs012

Sounds good to me and simple enough to try! How do I rig up the jumper wire?

Thanks for all the suggestions.

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As Jerry said, put the key in the on position, then jump from the large terminal to the S terminal on the starter...Use a heavy gauge wire so you don't burn your fingers.

I have a 400c.i. GM small block with the exact same issue (grinding noise after the engine catches unless I snap the key off very quickly). I actually fixed something that wasn't broken: I installed a brand new starter (Speedway King Chrome w/offset holes) when the electrical problem turned out to be the alternator. I had the alternator rebuilt and then installed the starter I had just bought because, well, I had just bought it. The old GM starter was actually working fine and didn't need to be replaced, but I didn't know that until after the alternator was fixed.

When I first installed the new starter without shims, it made the noise, so I spent several hours shimming the damn thing until it's within a thousandth or two of the recommended .125" gap. I also bought new starter bolts and made sure that the rear brace is tight. Same noise.

Any more ideas? The old starter had too much gap (about .150-.160"), but was smooth and quiet. I could declare defeat and put the old starter back in, but I just bought the new one. Did I mention that?

By the way, I have to thank the person in a related thread who posted this link: http://macc.chevelles.net/starter.htm. It really helped with the shimming process.

I forgot to add that I also performed the jumper test, but nothing changed.

Did you double check the angle of the starter?
The starter drive teeth have to be square to the flywheel/flexplate teeth.
If they're not square to each other, the air gap spacing won't mean a thing.
Also make sure the new starter is the correct tooth pattern for the amount of teeth on the flexplate.

The bolt holes don't allow any wiggle room, so it's as square as the machining will allow. As I understand it, the angled bolt starters are for the 168 tooth flexplate, while the inline bolt starters are for the 153 tooth flexplate. I couldn't find 153 tooth angled bolt starters, nor 168 tooth inline bolt starters.