Hard starting Flathead V8 Ford

I already posted the car on another site so I don’t want to get into double posting. It is a1950 Ford; I bought the car with a 6volt system new battery 940 cold cranking amps. If it doesn’t fire right away something pulls the battery down to where it won’t even turn over. I like the car but I thought I was finished pushing cars, I'm too old to start pushing again. Could it be the starter, solenoid or what? I want to keep the car but I would like to be able to it shut off, and know I can drive it home. The other day I took it for a police check since it was from out of state, the policer office wanted to hear it run but it wouldn’t start. Any help would be appreciated.

Side note I don't know if it's my computer or if this site has been going down alot lately. I tried to post this earlier and when I hit submit the site went down.


Richard

As for the site issues it took a long time to return a reply to you on PM, maybe the server is suffering from PMS.:eek:

I'd check your grounds and cables, both for connection and corrosion first. Remember, corrosion can also migrate up/down a cable if there is a breach at either end of the insulation, so just cleaning the ends doesn't always solve the problem. After that the starter could be in the early stages of failing and having an excessive draw which could show as you've described.

Thanks, I’ll check the cables out first, it’s frustrating when a car won’t start.

I saw a post where a guy took a 12-volt battery and had it hooked up as a jumper. The pos. to the frame, the neg, to the solenoid the wire to another starter button that would spin the starter real fast since it wasn’t wired to the system it would not interfere. Every once in a while he would put a trickle charge on the 12-volt since it was only drawing. If I can get that entire procedure straight I may try that if the cables don’t help, His only warning was do not hit both buttons at the same time. He had his in the middle under the dash to prevent hitting it.

Richard

Your starter is drawing too much current. Take it to an old mechanic that knows his stuff and get it rebuilt right.

Thanks, I'll see if I can find a guy in my area, it's a small country town so someone should know. When I put the trickle charge on it, it would spin over but not for very long. With that big of a battery it should really spin. Are you saying the brushes, and armature needs attention? I have rebuilt generators but not a starter.

Two other things I'd check are the voltage regulator and the ignition switch. Either one being faulty can drain the battery in a heartbeat.

Thanks for the help, I was so excited waiting for the car to get here, I really like the look of the car. When you are ready to go and the car won't start it's a bi--h!!! I got tired of pushing cars when I was a kid.

Richard

New brushes and bushings and a turned armature should fix it, if the armature passes the "growler" test.

At Billetproof last Spring as we were leaving the hotel a guy was trying to get his '50 Ford to start. He must have cranked it for like 5 minutes and every once in a while it would sputter but not fire. I asked if he needed help and he said no, it does this every once in a while, especially in the mornings. I was surprised his 6V battery kept going that long, but it did. I think I remember some guys installing an 8 volt battery in these?

I think when I get around to building the flathead I got from Paul I am going to put some modern upgrades, like a better distributor, 12 volts, and an alternator. I remember from the old days these things can be cantankerous sometimes, and I'm like you, getting too old to push. :)

Don

I'll try the brushes first, and clean the armature, cables, and look it over.
Thanks for the help.

If I can't get it going soon I’ll just go with the 12-volt conversion. Don, on the way home from getting a police check, after which the car wouldn't start I thought it was low on gas so I stopped to put some fuel in. A guy was looking at my car and said he knew where one was for sale. I ended up buying a 4 door 50 Ford that is really nice, or I should say before the young guy wanted a chopped top. That car fires right up, when I went to see it the thing was spinning over like crazy, the guy had unhooked some wires that the previous owner had flamethrowers on. When we got the right wires on it fired up. I always wanted to cut a top but couldn't bring myself to make the first cut. This car is cut so now I'm going to make it a 2 door Carson topped car hopefully.

Richard

I do have to say that in my past I worked on and owned quite a few Ford flatheads. They are for sure not the best starting cars in the world with the 6V system - probably only just better then an old MoPar 6 flathead. Then let it get cold and/or damp......

Positive ground - and they do have to be clean and shiny, a well built starting motor - one that the end bushing or bearing(depends on the vintage) runs the armature true along with all four bushes being long enough so the (good/strong) springs hold them to the commutator hard enough - and that comm has to be clean, and true with no road grime, oil or mica showing. Then, you do have to have reasonably good compression with good valves plus a carb that is correct. These engines turn very slow in comparison to current engines so need every bit of help they can get. The best thing you can do is a 12V conversion but use a very good 6V starter - the windings are way heavy enough to handle the voltage increase though you may eventually see some pitting on the comm.

I'm thinking the 12-volt conversion would be the best way to go; I have been trying to get as much information as possible.

The old day's of generators, brushes, and having to clean the armature, cleaning the contacts, and adjusting them on the voltage regulator when they are sticking. Just to keep them going, we were always doing something. I paid for a running car I didn't think it was going to be like this. If I hadn't paid so much for the car I would just get a crate 350 and go modern.

I guess I forgot how the good old day's really were!!!

Your car is looking good in the Avatar.

Richard

Honest Charley used to sell a "series-parallel" switch that let you run two 6v batteries and switched to 12v to start. There were a few farm trucks around here that had a similar setup, worked great. Haven't seen one in dog years, though.

Take a look here - aren't cheap but will bolt up to a flathead intake:

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/powergen.html

And don't forget - you have positive ground if OEM!!!!

I had a 51 with a hard starting problem and a rebuilt starter and new thick battery cables solved the problem.make sure you have good grounds too. Jeff

junkyardjef, It has heavy cables, and a heavy-duty battery.
I noticed the ground from the battery is grounded to the engine. I read that it should be grounded to the frame. The engine has been painted it may have been put over a painted surface, so I'm going to try that first. I saw Speedway has a high torque starter for $200 if that would work I would try that. I don't want to through money at this car without being a little confident that what I'm doing will help. I noticed yesterday after having the trickle charger on all night it would turn over then hit a spot like the timing is off in a regular car, like they want to kick back. It's a real pain when you don't know, it's bad enough to change things that break but at least you know what the problem is. Thanks for the tip.

Richard

Checking for paint at the contact point is a good idea, same for the starter grounding to the block/bell housing. Grounding the battery to the engine isn't necessarily a problem as long as the engine in turn is grounded to the frame. A strap/cable from a starter mounting bolt to the frame is a good dual purpose solution as it ensures grounding of the starter.

Years ago, 1962 to be exact, I bought a 1940 Ford 2dr sedan for a guy in Culver City, Ca. It was bone stock and it would not hold a charge. My dad was living in Long Beach at the time so I drove there and worked on it on weekends as I was stationed at MCRD, San Diego. After three weekends or so of changing out all of the normal suspected culprits my dad had a wise old Ford mechanic he knew come and take a look at it. The ignition switch had shorted between the terminals and was draining the battery. New ignition switch, problem solved.
IMHO, before you start throwing parts at it I would make sure of the integrity of the electrical system.

It probably just needs the starter freshened up and if you are still using the original style ground cable get rid of it and used a normal cable,replacing it on the 51 and a 50 chryler made a world of difference in starting and eliminated the no start in damp weather on the chrysler. Jeff

The battery is new and 940 cold cranking amps, the battery cables look good and are a pretty good size, to see if there is a drain I could get a full charge, then take the cables off from the battery. A few days try it to see if the battery holds a charge. I'm not going to be driving it anyway until spring now.

There is a new braded old style strap from the engine to the firewall. I'm going to put it on the lift today, and go over all of the grounding areas.

The ignition switch could be a problem, and maybe the starter button, it looks like a mess with the wires.

Thanks again for the help.

Richard

hay ford I read in your post # 16 after charging the battery it wanted to kick back have you checked for coolant leak into a cyl. you dont want to hydrolic the motor just a thought ....ted

Well that will get me to check something else, I'll pull the plugs and see. I thought I would be in the garage by now but trying to get ready for snow coming picking up the garden hose, and yard things. I'll still get in the garage and post what I find, hope it's a ground problem! Thanks.

Richard

Maybe the timing is off some or the balancer has moved. Jeff

Go over to the Fordbarn, there are a lot of flathead 6 volt experts that will help with your problem.

I got the car started with a little resistance, when it warms up that really drags it down. I got the car on the lift; first thing I checked was the starter connection it has corrosion, and rust. By the time I got the junk moved so I could get the car on the lift I was wore out. Lake pipes made it hard also; I had to raise the car with a floor jack to get the arms under. The battery still had a charge so maybe that's not the problem. I will clean the cables, and starter post if that doesn't help I'll try to figure out how to check the timing. I will pull the spark plugs like it was mentioned. I hope I don't have antifreeze in the cylinders. I had that happen to a 41 Plymouth that will for sure make them hard to turn over.

I'll check out the Fordbarn also.

Thanks, Richard

The starter stud was stripped in the middle, corroded, extra washer’s trying to makeup for the stripped stud. The cable had been taped near the end; it must of hit the exhaust it was burnt to the copper cable. I’m hoping it didn’t short out anything. After putting the cable back on it spun over better but after a couple times of shutting it off and restarting the battery went down.

Getting ready to go the distance. I’m thinking about going with the high torque starter from Speedway, solenoid, cables, starter button, plus ignition switch. If that don't do it I guess the only other thing would be to change the wiring, it doesn't look too good either.

Has anyone used a high torque starter on a flathead?

Richard

Before you put all that $$$$ into it, remember that the wiring is going on 59-60 years old and it might just be time to replace - and you will have modern insulation plus the ability to go to 12VDC with modern negative ground and also be able to install a good stereo, halogen headlights replacing the 6V 'candles', LED taillights (but will need a voltage reducer to operate gauges).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IC2

Before you put all that $$$$ into it, remember that the wiring is going on 59-60 years old and it might just be time to replace - and you will have modern insulation plus the ability to go to 12VDC with modern negative ground and also be able to install a good stereo, halogen headlights replacing the 6V 'candles', LED taillights (but will need a voltage reducer to operate gauges).

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You’re right, that’s what I’m going to do.

Richard