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You have shown 4 different cars----I wouldn't ride in any of them!!!!!!Aboit everything they have done is wrong
Plus they do use a axle with the vertical attach points and the axle you picture is for dual springs----if you want to use that axle use dual springs
If you want to use the parts in your drawing you will need a custom/custom spring about 12 inches long and good luck with the spring rates and shock mounting
They called that type suspension Suicide suspension !!!!
I know what it is called, but i dont understand how it effects anything by placing the spring on top or front or back of the axle. The pivot point for the axle swing stays the same, the only difference i see is the spring would have to be stiffer the closer it gets to the swing point.
yep i do not care for the spring over the perch and hold the front end up by 4 bolts :whacked:Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Hot Rod,
There is absolutly nothing wrong with your idea--Nothing!! Its not unsafe to use an old axle providing that axle is in good shape. There is nothing wrong with using an axle with the spring Behind configuration, its been done thousands of times and well continue to be done thousands of more times in the future.
You can buy TODAY from almost any of the axle providing Companys brand new axles with the spring behind setup. I would think that most of the so called new axles today are made from materials that came from off shore, so why in the world would you want a Chinese axle just becuase it comes in a box and wrapper and not from underneath an old truck?
Some folks today exercise the way to build a Hot Rod is by check book hotrodding, thats fine if thats what they want. but hotrodding REAL: hotrodding has its roots in a completly different form of building. It IS NOT INHERENTLY unsafe if done correctly and with a little forthought.
And if you think about it-- IF and thats a real big "IF" using the axle you have is unsafe then most of the parts that attach to that axle should be in question as well. So you are going to need a lot more than just axle. You will need Spindles--- Hubs----Brakes at a minimum try buying all of that new for $300.00 bucks.
RS
The differance here is that you got the wrong axle----your axle is not made for wishbone arms its made for dual springs to locate it---you are trying to re invent something---and its not going to work--get rid of that axle and get one for radius rods/wishbone arms---you have put up pictures of 4 different cars and they all had axles for radius/wishbone arms---your axle doesn't have that---
Most of the transverse axles are set up for only one or two different springs lengths for good reasons--you will have to spend lots of time and money to get a spring that will be suitable---
I'm suggesting that you use a known quality piece as a starting point that you can either build parts for or buy components if they are something that aren't readibly DIYS type things such as springs, spring perch bolts,and shackles
the place to save money in a build isn't on the front steering/suspension--its vital to have the right stuff there and I'm not talking about just writing a big check---there isn't anybody that will build more of there own stuff than me, and I am 100% behind you minus this one little bitty thing
Jerry
I have priced them and i cannot buy what i need for the small price i got my axle for. Jim robinson has used the same axle i have many times, and was gracious enough to provide me photo`s of his setup. I just wanted to know if i need a new spring and Bob answered that for me.
I will say , and have, that i do not know everything about these setups and if im going to do something dangerously wrong i would like to know. My family will be riding in this car and i want to do it right, but i dont have the budget to buy a new complete setup! I have the shop and equiptment to make this work. I do know that all of these outdated systems are not without fault, but i know there`s ways to make them decent.
As far as stress on the axle, how does it differ attached to springs or wishbones? i can see a dual spring having slightly less load bearing on the axle, but other than that how is it different? Are these axles designed more rigid than earlier axles since these axles do not have the flexing forces earlier wishbone designs have?
you can use an old axle---just get the right kind
What is it you are planning on using for bat wings to connect the radius rods to the axle?????? A bunch of grinding and cutting on the axle you have now is certainly not a recomended procedure.... With everybody wanting to have the "gasser" look these days, very possible that you could trade your dual eliptical axle and spring setup for a transverse spring type of axle....????? IMO, a whole lot better deal then cutting and grinding the spring mount pads off the axle and welding on some batwings on the axle you have now.....
Yeah, I'm sure it'll work just fine..... Now, what happens to the tie rod and steering arms? How do they fit???? Like I said, it's just my opinion that a transverse spring is better with an axle designed for it.... Sometimes I've seen "ingenious" used as a $3.00 word for cobbled..... Nothing personal, just an opinion. Probably a fenderless car, aesthetics is another consideration, especially at resale time.......
Evolvo, you you can thank Brianrupnow for that design, i stole it from his recommendation to J Robinson for his setup. Dave and Jerry i have always valued your opinions, and i always look forward to your input, but i have yet to hear a valid reason to why this axle will not work! I understand that it will take some work, and yes it will take some fabrication, but other than removing a little metal, and adding some batwings and proper welds why is this so wrong?
I admit i dont know it all! And if i have used all my questions on this forum , that`s cool too, let me know, just give me a valid reason why this will not work!
If you feel it's safe, then run it.... I don't like a spring anywhere other then on top of the axle where it is intended to be. Yeah, I know, everybody runs them in front or behind the axle without problems. But from a design standpoint, the spring located anywhere other then on top of the axle is putting extra stress on the component it's bolted to. The leverage point for the spring mount behind the axle is at the attach point of the spring eye to the axle, not the correct place. When the suspension moves up and down this also places an undue outwards force on this same attach point. The movement, though minimal, does put stress on the attach point and the attaching hardware and IMO is an unnecessary stress. Probably not a big concern with most, but it is with me...
Just because everybody does it doesn't make it right. The spring is designed to pivot at the centerline of the axle for a reason, to prevent undue stress on the other components..... BTW, proper welds would also require heat treating. More to a strong and safe weld then it's looks. You'll be welding different materials, a cast or forged axle housing to plate steel..... There is a correct procedure to heat treat this weldment to ensure maximun strength....
Hey, it's your car, do it however you want. I'm just expressing an opinion, not saying that you are wrong, or looking to start another argument. Not my car and chances are my butt will never be in either seat.....
Dave, i understand proper welding and heat treating, i spent ten grand going to school for welding, that is not an issue for me. I also understand that most feel comfortable with the spring over the axle, but the product is only as good as it`s weakest link! And in my opinion the weakest link is the spring shackles! I dont care if the spring is in front or behind, or on top, the weakest link is still the small shackles! If it`s gonna break that will be the place. I also understand that with the spring connected at the radius will put a pulling force at the connecting point, so it puts undue stress at the threads of the shackle pins, but what is going to give first ? the threads ? or the shackles? You know plenty that i dont! please school me.
The shackles are only a pivot. With the spring on top of the axle, the spring perch is the weakest link.... With the spring behind, I'd say the constant flex and pressure on the batwings and the spring perch bolt makes them the weak link. Guess I've never seen a shackle break, but I have seen spring perch's break. Doesn't matter which gives first, with the spring on top the components and hardware are much less likely to fail.
I don't build anything with a straight axle anymore, IFS is so much better handling. Never have been one to go in for "the look" or the most current fad in suspension. My preference is always to the best performing suspension for the money spent. I place value at a higher level then cost...... I don't use old axles or spindles because of the "unknowns" in their past life....how bad were they abused, overloaded, or neglected????? Magnafluxing will show cracks, but how much misuse and abuse has there been on a 50 or 60 year old axle? Another thing, all those pieces from the 30's and 40's were designed for 30 to 40 mph cars with skinny little tires. How much does a big horse V-8 and sticky radial tires exceed the design limits of the components???? I'm not some kind of scardy cat, but I feel there's enough inherent risks in driving a high performance car in among today's low performance driver's that I choose to not take any extra risks by using old, worn out parts at a level they were never designed to perform at........
My internet was out last night so I'll add some comments this morning---
First--as I see it--you don't have any diffinant plans for this because you have shown a scattering of pics of several cars--at least you are still looking at possibilities and trying to work out the best procedure to do this
Sooo----post 15-----if the perch bolt doesn't fail first----the bracket will fail from the perch bolt holes to the corner of the yellow plate that bolts to the axle---
Post 11----since this car isn't a 4 bar---there is no reason to go to the effort they did to build it like the pic
If you want to use your axle--first make absolutely sure that you can get hubs, bearings and brake components for it---
NOW----if you aren't going to use a 4 bar radius rod--bolt radius arms to the flat spring perch on your axle, adjust caster with axle shims(like it was) and weld bosses to the top of the axle for the spring shackle to atack to( maybe out at the turn up and use the spring in your pics) and if necessary convert it to front steer( or maybe even put a rack mounted on the radius arms)
If you are into welding and you want to try something different---weld a vertical piece to the axle for the spring perch bolt and bat wings to attach to and you will only be offset from axle cross center by a inch or so instead og 4 or 5 inches