Fiero IFS instead of Mustang II

Anybody know anything about this Fiero front end. My son's got a little Canadian '71 Vauxhall Firenza project that's difficult and EXPENSIVE to get parts for, so we need to change the frontend. He can't afford the Mustang II aftermarket stuff and cheap used OEM Mustang/Pinto stuff is very hard to find around here and is still too pricey.
Because of his tiny budget (he's only 14), we're going to need to adapt common, usable parts to his car. A Fiero front will probably be a little wide, but we don't mind the work involved to narrow it up a bit and get it just right. We're going to look at a junk 85 Fiero this weekend, so any advice would be welcome. Info on Fiero front crossmembers is either scarce or I'm not searching correctly. I did find a little info on this site, but the pictures were gone. Thanks very much :)

haven't heard of anyone ever trying a fiero clip. Might start a new trend. depending on your engine, don't forget the fiero was a rear engine car so stiffer springs may be needed to handle the load fom your engine. please show pics as you get it done.

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Originally Posted by tudorkeith

haven't heard of anyone ever trying a fiero clip. Might start a new trend. depending on your engine, don't forget the fiero was a rear engine car so stiffer springs may be needed to handle the load fom your engine. please show pics as you get it done.

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This is a pic I found on the net. Looks very promising. Basically Chevette suspension. Suposed to be a strong boxed crossmember as well. Coilovers are available as well. 88 is a little different, but supposedly a better "Lotus inspired" setup. Best of all it's CHEAP and common. Maybe it'll turn out to be the new Mustang II replacement. Who knows.:cool:

Found a pic of an 88 as well. Looks upgraded though.

The 85 unit could work, but it's not the best setup in the world. parts are surprisingly hard to come by (ck out the "Fiero Store" online store if you do this). the brakes especially are truely pathetic. the 84 - 87 uses a puney non vented rotor that barely stops a 2800 lb Fiero and the 88 vented rotor isn't much better. the 88 front end is even harder to get parts for BTW.
any Corvairs in your junk yard? on all years the front suspension is removable as an assembly similar to the Fiero, but it's actually much easier to get parts for (Clarks Corvair Parts) and, even though the're drums, the brakes are 100 times better (same as full size Chev of the era).

Good luck with it,

Russ

Reminds me of the Opel Kadet front suspension which completely unbolts as one unit...joe

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Originally Posted by lotsatoys

The 85 unit could work, but it's not the best setup in the world. parts are surprisingly hard to come by (ck out the "Fiero Store" online store if you do this). the brakes especially are truely pathetic. the 84 - 87 uses a puney non vented rotor that barely stops a 2800 lb Fiero and the 88 vented rotor isn't much better. the 88 front end is even harder to get parts for BTW.
any Corvairs in your junk yard? on all years the front suspension is removable as an assembly similar to the Fiero, but it's actually much easier to get parts for (Clarks Corvair Parts) and, even though the're drums, the brakes are 100 times better (same as full size Chev of the era).

Good luck with it,

Russ

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Hi Russ, CORVAIRS! Unfortunately most of our unrestored Corvairs have long ago turned to dust. I hear stories of how cheap some wrecking yards are, but around here they are convinced that every part they have is solid gold. Those pre 88 fiero brakes actually look very similar to whats on his car now. His target weight for the car is 2200#. We'd love bigger brakes but not on his budget. Rusty Fiero's are a dime a dozen around here. Thanks

A customer of mine had a fiero front suspension on his 32 ford coupe so I know it can work but if it were me I would try to save alittle more cash and go with something better. It just didn't seem to impress me and I know he had a hard time finding parts for it.

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Originally Posted by turbovauxhall

A Fiero front will probably be a little wide, but we don't mind the work involved to narrow it up a bit and get it just right.

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You do realize that when you do this, you upset the factory-engineered geometry, right?

It will not change the factory-engineered geometry all! It will change the bumpsteer. How much depends on how much he narrows it, and if his using the stock rack & pinion width! (Not the arms, the center section)

Pat

I've got to try a little harder.

Bump steer is a very important part of the front end geometry!!! Some folks overlook the importance of the correct bumpsteer. If it's wrong, hard to make anything else on the front end work right...then the bad handling gets blamed on everything else.

Bumpsteer is not the same with a rack & pinion IFS is not the same as with cross or traditional "side delivery" steering, It's equal to both wheels in the in or out toe, not side to side movement. And bumpsteering is built into all factory independent front ends. Yes to much bumpsteering can be a problem, But with a rack it doesn't throw you side to side!!! Unless it's way to much, then it could if one tire grips the road better.
But it is a easy fix, unlike the rest of the geometry which is screwed up on most other aftermarket bought MM II front ends, made by top name companies! Which is a bitch to fix, and is blamed on bumpsteer, to cover their butts!
Bumpsteering can be fixed by moving the rack up back into alignment with the angle or by raising the arm ends higher or lower or both or by changing the rack to a narrower one. It all depends on how much he narrows it!

Instead of jumping on me......Why don't guys tell him how to fix it??? Or....Didn't you know how! At least I told him WHAT was going to be wrong!
I get it... You'd rather jump on someone, then help someone, cause you didn't know how to fix it.

Pat

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Originally Posted by HemiTCoupe

Instead of jumping on me......Why don't guys tell him how to fix it??? Or....Didn't you know how! At least I told him WHAT was going to be wrong!
I get it... You'd rather jump on someone, then help someone, cause you didn't know how to fix it.

Pat

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If you are out to make this a personal attack, then take it to a PM...

The original post is that Turbo is considering using a Fiero front, not that he's encountering problems. No need to clutter up the thread with another argument.

Personal attack? Did I say your name? You jumped on what I said, Not the other way around. I only said things to help him out, you only said things against what I said, nothing to help him out. Your the one clutter up the thread.

I'm just trying to help turbovauxhall.

The "steering geometry" is bolt on, and changeable, and the "Front-end geometry" is not. He will Not change the geometry of the front end by narrrowing it! The caster, chamber, and anti dive will still be the same as before.

Pat

Turbovauxhall. Books have been written on front suspension geometry, so the guys can't cover everything involved in narrowing a factory front suspension. Just keep in mind that if you need to narrow this Fiero front end to make it work, you should probably look a little longer for something that will fit better. Good luck there! If you do indeed narrow the Fiero front suspension by narrowing the crossmember only, you "may" create an ill handling car. Narrowing the rack to correct may get expensive. Moving the rack to correct may not be enough and requires special equipment and knowledge to do correctly. This is not a simple fix! Building tubular a-frames to narrow the suspension requires special tools and skills. Those small budgets make it tough! The guys were just trying to prepare you for what may be ahead if you do an install like this. And engineers do not build "bump steer" into a suspension. They are paid to engineer it out of a suspension design, and engineer the correct amount of ackerman into the suspension. Not the same thing.

All I did was type in factory Bumpsteer in Mustangs. It's out there to read on other cars also! They Do come with factory bumpsteer!

Read ---> http://www.mustangandfords.com/techa...ned/index.html


Narrowing a front end is not that hard, and it is not hard to reset it back square. All the Mustang II front ends they sell use the same upper & lower A frame mounting location, But there is a bunch of top name ones that locate the top off place front to rear!

I didn't say to narrow the rack center, if that is needed there are many other racks out there to use that are shorter.

Getting the rack in the right place (As to factory) is simple to figure out. there is a imaginary line from the top a arm pivot point to the lower a arm pivot point. the racks pivot of the inner joint has to fall in that line anywhere!
Then you need to raise or lower the tie rod end to be flat in line (or the same angle it was stock) from the rack to the tie rod end mount on the spindle. lengthen or shorten the tie rod to fit. That is on the stock ride height.

I don't know why you would say that the Ackerman would come to play? That would Only come into play if he was going to change the tie rod mount location on the spindle The wheels will still turn the same amount!
This is not like putting the center link of a beam axle & turning the spindles around to the front!

I don't see why building tubular A arms are brought up either.

You don't know anything about me as far as what I know or do to say "so the guys can't cover everything involved in narrowing a factory front suspension."

Pat

Whew! Tech is right. I've got to try a little harder. Geez.

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Originally Posted by turbovauxhall

This is a pic I found on the net. Looks very promising. Basically Chevette suspension. Suposed to be a strong boxed crossmember as well. Coilovers are available as well. 88 is a little different, but supposedly a better "Lotus inspired" setup. Best of all it's CHEAP and common. Maybe it'll turn out to be the new Mustang II replacement. Who knows.:cool:

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Hey,turbo..I would suggest you lok at the Opel or Chevette front end,as the Chevette,albeit,a little different to the English Chevettes,were the next model to replace the Viva,which is essentially all you have...The American Chevette may not be too much different,and the Opel Kadett is all in the family,too,so they would be where I would start looking first..If its a bit wider,give it a few inches extra in the fenders,,the rear end will have to be replaced anyway,so it will look ok with a bit of extra width..:D

Ok, I'm going to add my 2 bits worth here. You mention this is a project for your son (14) and its only going to be a lightweight car.
Had you considered using the stock vauxhall frontend and adding a decent set of aftermarket gas shocks (dampers) and look into a brake upgrade to suit - you may be able to achieve this by either a bearing change to allow using a larger hub/disc rotor or possibly use the vauxhall front hub and adapt on a 'Hat' type disc rotor (slip over style as fitted to a lot of Japanese vehicles '80s - '90s)
and then fabricate caliper mounts and add calipers to suit.
I suggest this option for a few reasons, the vauxhall front end is not a BAD design ( here in NZ there were many vauxhall vivas repowered with SBC using stock front ends) this would save you having to adapt in a complete front end swap, keep the track basically stock and hopefully keep the project on budget.

p.s. Vauxhall viva is essentially a firenza .