Thread: Need diagnostic help on SEVERE steering wheel shake

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Couple things---

If it gets better with more brake---that is the result of getting the disc squeesed down to same distance as it goes around.

Is this a front end that was removed from a mustang2 and installed or is it an aftermarket--Heights, etc?

whoever did the front end alignment didn't care or know what he was doing--sure those numbers are in spec acording to there specs but there isn't any of them where they need to be and also the same on both sides.

does the upper control arm mounting have any brake anti dive angle in it???

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Couple things---

If it gets better with more brake---that is the result of getting the disc squeesed down to same distance as it goes around.

Is this a front end that was removed from a mustang2 and installed or is it an aftermarket--Heights, etc?

removed from a M2 & installed by PO...

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

did the front end alignment didn't care or know what he was doing--sure those numbers are in spec acording to there specs but there isn't any of them where they need to be and also the same on both sides.

Tell me about it, when I questioned the wide differences in number on each side, he reassured me that as long as it was "in range" it's fine and that if I was still having a shake, it was probably something else, other than the alignment. Was done at a Tire Kingdom... I'l try to get the car to a rod shop as soon as I check a few more items for a new alignment..

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

the upper control arm mounting have any brake anti dive angle in it???

pardon my ignorance, but I don't know what "brake anti dive angle" is or how to determine. thanks!

Bart

BT

Go to www.heidts.com

Pull up there online catologue and print/read pages 4-12-----

Explains a lot about mustang 2 front ends and proper set up including drawings that explain some different terms----

You will be a lot smarter by twilight tonight!!!!!!

Jerry

have you had the car on a alinement rack yet???check all the frame dim. dtd a profressional install the front clip???a lot of time you need an old timer to adjust the front end because they know how to adjust with out a computer.ask your friends who's the best front end guy in your area and go see him.

Originally Posted by hotrodstude

have you had the car on a alinement rack yet???check all the frame dim. dtd a profressional install the front clip???a lot of time you need an old timer to adjust the front end because they know how to adjust with out a computer.ask your friends who's the best front end guy in your area and go see him.

scheduled 8am tuesday, June 15th Weber Wheel in WPB, Fl.... "old school" shop/owner...

I think that is an excellent question hotrodstude raises about how competently the front end might have been installed. Although building a rod has gotten easier in recent years because of all the kits out there, it still isn't a no brainer and the job can still be botched. We have all seen examples of poor workmanship, sometimes even done by "professional shops".

It's a little surprising to see this problem, which to me sounds like classic death wobble, evident in an independent front suspended car. I always associated that problem to the cars we straight axle guys owned. After all, some of the reasons guys install these MMII kits is to get better ride, handling, and none of the quirky steering issues the straight axle cars are blamed for having.

Since you bought a car that someone else built I think you need to go back to square one and make sure the axles are square to the frame, that the wheelbase is the same side to side, that the front suspension was installed in a proper manner, etc, etc. There are too many unknowns here and this problem could be the tip of the iceberg. Maybe time to get a GOOD rod shop to take a hard look at it and offer some opinions and solutions. Your local alignment shop is out of their element on a custom built car in most cases.

Don

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I think that is an excellent question hotrodstude raises about how competently the front end might have been installed. Although building a rod has gotten easier in recent years because of all the kits out there, it still isn't a no brainer and the job can still be botched. We have all seen examples of poor workmanship, sometimes even done by "professional shops".

It's a little surprising to see this problem, which to me sounds like classic death wobble, evident in an independent front suspended car. I always associated that problem to the cars we straight axle guys owned. After all, some of the reasons guys install these MMII kits is to get better ride, handling, and none of the quirky steering issues the straight axle cars are blamed for having.

Since you bought a car that someone else built I think you need to go back to square one and make sure the axles are square to the frame, that the wheelbase is the same side to side, that the front suspension was installed in a proper manner, etc, etc. There are too many unknowns here and this problem could be the tip of the iceberg. Maybe time to get a GOOD rod shop to take a hard look at it and offer some opinions and solutions. Your local alignment shop is out of their element on a custom built car in most cases.

Don

All good points, if the trip to Weber doesn't solve it, I'll see if I can find a respected shop in the area. Only one I know of in this area is "Rick's Rods" in West Palm Beach, but have heard mixed reviews.

Could you have switched these from side to side? Without strut rods it would be easier to mix up.

I know that you said that you had your bearings checked a couple of times.... but I'm thinking this is the area of your problems. DW is a fairly common problem in Model A's and it is generally a bearing or king pin issue that causes it. I know you said that you checked it... so I'm waiting to see what the problem actually turns out to be caused by.

Thanks for keeping us updated.
Jerome

Originally Posted by MRJB1929

I know that you said that you had your bearings checked a couple of times.... but I'm thinking this is the area of your problems. DW is a fairly common problem in Model A's and it is generally a bearing or king pin issue that causes it. I know you said that you checked it... so I'm waiting to see what the problem actually turns out to be caused by.

Thanks for keeping us updated.
Jerome

You're welcome! I should have more information Tuesday after my morning visit to the front-end shop.

Its going to be a long wait til Tuesday so don't make us wait til Wednesday!!!!

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Its going to be a long wait til Tuesday so don't make us wait til Wednesday!!!!

fair enough!

UPDATE! UPDATE! decided to check a few things before Tuesday's trip to the front end shop... Took off the rims, static balanced them... remounted and went for a drive... Same problem started. Had one of my sons in the back seat to check for vibrations from drive shaft. Nothing,...;

Wait, here it comes...


Drove home, put her on the lift to check balance... Did some "Power Braking" to see if possibly the engine or tranny mounts had broken, normal rocking in both 1st and Reverse......''

Ready? GUESS WHAT!








FRONT WHEELS WERE COMPLETELY LOCKED UP!

Hubs were too hot to touch and there was bluing on the disc surfaces!

Had my son-in-law open the valve on the front passenger caliper, let out brake fluid under pressure and both front wheels turned smoothly! Didn't check the rear wheel, should have. At this point, I'm fairly certain it's related to either the master cylinder, booster or proportioning valve.... We had replaced the first 2 items around the same time we rebuilt the front end! This makes some sense as the brake pedal takes a while to build up pressure in the booster and, once it's built up, seems to be hyper sensitive with very slight play!~ The system must not have been able to depressurize itself! Thus, after stopping, applying the brakes, the discs cool off, pressure bleeds from the booster and the lines, allowing the car to run fine until it builds up again!

Tuesday night I'll remove the cylinder and check to see if there are any internal adjustments... then flush the lines, rebleed and test drive.

More after we break down the cylinder/booster!

Bart

I'd check the front brake hoses.
They can break down inside & cause a flap in the rubber on the inside of the hose.
You can push it down all you want & fluid can come out if the bleeders are open.
BUT that doesn't mean when you release your pedal that the pressure releases.
I would almost bet $$$$$ that if you try & force the piston back into your caliper w/o opening the bleeder that the piston won't go back in. This would cause the same exact problem you are describing w/your front rotors ....joe

Originally Posted by TooMany2count

I'd check the front brake hoses.
They can break down inside & cause a flap in the rubber on the inside of the hose.
You can push it down all you want & fluid can come out if the bleeders are open.
BUT that doesn't mean when you release your pedal that the pressure releases.
I would almost bet $$$$$ that if you try & force the piston back into your caliper w/o opening the bleeder that the piston won't go back in. This would cause the same exact problem you are describing w/your front rotors ....joe

Good point, but would one expect to see BOTH wheels locked up with a flap developing on both sides at the same time?

Originally Posted by MRJB1929

I've had the situation that Joe speaks of. On the wifes 36 chevy with the original hydraulic brake lines/system, one of the rubber lines had a piece of internal part of the hose come free creating a "flap". Fluid would easily go out to the brakes but wouldn't return quickly. When this happened, the car severly pulled to the right (or where ever the bad hose was), and nearly pulled you off the road. It didn't cause DW but just a strong pull that caused the steering wheel to jerk so bad it nearly pull it out of your hands. Needless to say... we hunted that problem down so it wouldn't show up again.
Jerome

also a Good point... since I will be flushing and replacing much of the system, I am considering junking the under chassis booster/master and putting a new combo up in the engine bay, with a hanging peddle set-up, or some-such set-up... if I do this, I might as well replace all the plumbing and front brake houses rather than trying to extend / save what I have. thoughts? any suggestions for a kit which would work on a steel '34 sedan?

Bart