Alignment Spec Help

I am sure this has been asked and gone over multiple times before, but after much searching I can't find the answer.

I have a 37 Chevy 5 window coupe with a 78 Mustang 2 front end. I just changed everything under the front, all new A-arms, strut rids, ball joints, tie rods, everything. I called down and asked the aligment shop if they could do it and they said sure, just bring the specs......hmmmmm

So do I use standard specs form a M2, or something different? Car does not have power steering, beyond that standard M2 equipment.

Any help is appreciated.

Brett

Brett,
Are you running an OEM '78 Mustang II front end or aftermarket? If OEM then they should be able to plug in a '78 Mustang and be OK. If aftermarket hardware you should probably check with the manufacturer to see if he has anything special in his caster values. Barring that the basics for a Mustang II front end are in the order of 1/2 degree camber on the left, 1/8 degree on the right, 1 1/4 degree caster on the left, 1 1/2 degree on the right, and zero toe with radial tires unless you are getting bump steer. A good front end guy should be able to set you up if you just tell him what you have in hardware.

Here's a copy of Heidt's installation guide, see the last page for alignment specs: http://www.heidts.com/_uploaded_files/in-007.pdf

Even if yours isn't a Heidt's specs are MII based.

Brett, You need to find someone that knows alignment. Most of these guys are hired off the street and sent to the school offered by the equipment manufacturer for what is in their shop where he or she will be working. Talk to your local hot rod shop and see who they would recommend. Hopefully you have one close by.

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Originally Posted by sfort

Brett, You need to find someone that knows alignment. Most of these guys are hired off the street and sent to the school offered by the equipment manufacturer for what is in their shop where he or she will be working. Talk to your local hot rod shop and see who they would recommend. Hopefully you have one close by.

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Very good point!!!! Do some shopping around and find an alignment shop and operator who actually knows about alignment and suspension and not just what the computer sez!!!! If the shop sez for you to bring the specs, I'd keep looking!!!!

The specs you use should also be dependent on how you drive the car...if you're going to be doing some high speed driving or a bit of drag racing, it's nice to have a bit of extra caster, on the drag strip, you'll want your camber even from side to side, and not set to compensate for the road crown!

If the alignment shop doesn't know these things, you're in the wrong shop!!!!

I appreciate the information. I am trying to use a shop that is close as i just replaced everything under the front, so don't want to drive it too far, and don't have a trailer. I may have it closer than I think, but I doubt it. I tryed to measure everything before i took it all apart, but was just using rough measurements.

Yes everything is OEM, no it will no tbe on a track, and 60-70 will probably be top speed, maybe a few faster blasts, but not much. I will do some looking around, there are a couple rod shops within 30 miles or so, will give them a call and see what they say.

Again, I appreciate the info.

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Originally Posted by sfort

Brett, You need to find someone that knows alignment. Most of these guys are hired off the street and sent to the school offered by the equipment manufacturer for what is in their shop where he or she will be working. Talk to your local hot rod shop and see who they would recommend. Hopefully you have one close by.

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Toms Brake and Alignment on Belknap St in either Ft Worth or Haltom City(right on the edge)....best shop in N Texas for hot rods, pro mods, or anything else we motorheads like

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Originally Posted by whistlebritches

Toms Brake and Alignment on Belknap St in either Ft Worth or Haltom City(right on the edge)....best shop in N Texas for hot rods, pro mods, or anything else we motorheads like

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But he's in NC, not Texas????

:d .... :d

Once you get it on the road you will know pretty quick if a 30 mile trek is going to be a problem. If you measured and put it back close should be good enough to get it there. I would not take a major freeway. I measured and took pictures of the mounting of the upper A frames. Got the tires straight and that worked for me.

Brett,

A couple of other things before you go to the alignment shop. Make sure you've gotten everything finished or set as to the car's final ride height before you go through an alignment. If you are going to change tire size height (big & littles), adjust coil overs, or have air ride, these will affect the rake of your car which affects the caster.

Also make sure that you've gotten the "stop-to-stop" of your steering centered (with wheels pointed straight ahead at steering center) or you could end up with bump-steer. This is something your alignment shop might not check for you.

Dan

x 2, good advice

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Very good point!!!! Do some shopping around and find an alignment shop and operator who actually knows about alignment and suspension and not just what the computer sez!!!! If the shop sez for you to bring the specs, I'd keep looking!!!!

The specs you use should also be dependent on how you drive the car...if you're going to be doing some high speed driving or a bit of drag racing, it's nice to have a bit of extra caster, on the drag strip, you'll want your camber even from side to side, and not set to compensate for the road crown!

If the alignment shop doesn't know these things, you're in the wrong shop!!!!

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Originally Posted by Dan J

Brett,

Also make sure that you've got the "stop-to-stop" of your steering centered or you'll end up with bump-steer. This is something your alignment shop might not check for you.

Dan

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Centering the stop to stop, has nothing to do with bump steer. totally different things.

Pat

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Originally Posted by HemiTCoupe

Centering the stop to stop, has nothing to do with bump steer. totally different things.

Pat

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I beg your pardon, but I do believe that if the tie rods are at different lengths (tie rod ends adjusted in on one side and out on the other) from the rack, you are certainly going to have some strange handling problems with the steering as you travel over rough terrain or uneven roadways... what I call bump steer.

Dan

Follow Up, talked with a different shop on Friday. The owner said that he had an old school alignment guy that could certainly take care of me, but that he was out for medical reasons for a few days. He said he had a younger alignement guy, but he could only set per spec and the machine. He said his other guy did all the rods around here and was very capable. So will check in with them again in a few days.
Thanks, fo rthe help, suggestions and teachings.

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Originally Posted by MrChips

Follow Up, talked with a different shop on Friday. The owner said that he had an old school alignment guy that could certainly take care of me, but that he was out for medical reasons for a few days. He said he had a younger alignement guy, but he could only set per spec and the machine. He said his other guy did all the rods around here and was very capable. So will check in with them again in a few days.
Thanks, fo rthe help, suggestions and teachings.

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MrChips,
Sounds like you found the right place, and it is for sure worth waiting a few days for the old school guy to get back. I stopped back in to my shop a couple of weeks after mine was aligned and told the guy that it is still pulling to the right enough that it's in the turn signal cancel zone on my column. He told me that he set it straight, but with the little 560's on the front it's hard to know for sure how it's going to behave and that we need to bias in a little artificial left pull by dialing in some caster bias from side to side. It's going back in tomorrow for another tweak. My point is that this guy knows alignment from a pracitcal perspective, and knows how to set things to drive right, not just to be "spec right". My only complaint is that he would have probably seen it initially if he had test driven the car after the alignment, but I think he did not want to assume it was OK with me, and I did not press him on it.

My son works at a shop but because the alignment equipment is all computerized, he can't even "Check" my street rod to see what it is at. He knows my car as good as I do but it is the equipment and not the operator sometimes that gets in the way.

Another option and one that works very well is to get an alignment gauge from Summit. I boght the SPC Performance 91000 kit. I also bought the Toe-in kit but using a tape measure actually is much easier to use. In using the alignment gauge, I wanted to see how close it was to what an alignment shop (with older equipment) would get for me and I was SPOT ON after I had mine done.

I've adjusted mine using an article in Street Rodder magazine article

http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/...ent/index.html

With 1/4 degree Positive caster
1 1/2 degree negative Camber
Toe in Near zero

The car drives and handles great and normal tire wear. It takes time to do it and I always recheck it after a good test drive to make sure the other factors are not throwing off the readings.
Just thought I'd share a tip.
Jerome

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Originally Posted by MRJB1929

My son works at a shop but because the alignment equipment is all computerized, he can't even "Check" my street rod to see what it is at.

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After I wore out a couple good tires prematurely on the ‘34, I tried to get several alignment shops to “check” my street rod and none of them could get their equipment hooked up to verify my alignment settings... I decided to purchase a pair of turn plates from Harbor Freight for a $100 and an Intercomp digital caster/camber gauge for another $250 (about the cost of a couple of good tires).

I’m attaching a copy of one of the articles I used to teach myself how to do an alignment. Since I’ve gotten the equipment and figured out how to do my own alignment work, I’ve been able to barter with my street rod buds for things ranging from a couple of cold beers to borrowing tools!

Since I have done lots of chassis work and repairs over the years, I looked for and got a very good ysed Hunter alignment rack that came out of a dealership that had to do the upgrade thingy(they will only update computer specs so many years and then---you need version h as your version d is no longer supported for upgrades---

also got a older STRING version 4 wheel sensor alignment that came from a Lincoln dealer that did the strech limo cars that wouldn't fit on the normal raCKS--

everything works great, reads out what you have and not what you don't have----

you can use any specs you want and the computer has the specs up to 2002 stored in it, just the printer is an old version parallel deal with ribbon ink that you can't get stuff for and can't update op system for drivers for new ink jet stuff--

but the rack, turn tables, jacks allow me to mock up, trial fit for full travel, etc and after finish welding can do the alignment all in place


Isn't 1/4 degree of caster pretty unstable on a real road????

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Isn't 1/4 degree of caster pretty unstable on a real road????

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I think Jerome may have gotten his caster and camber reversed. I'm thinking the caster might be 1-1/2 positive and camber might be 1/4 degree negative... but I'm not speaking for Jerome.

Shoot!!! I did it again. Yes... You are right...

I always mix up Caster and Camber - Always a mental block.
1/4 negative camber
1 1/2 Positive Caster.

I was told that a pretty good start for my car was .5 camber, 3deg caster, and no more than 1/16th toe in. I will see what the guy says in a few days.

as for my own equipment, that would be cool. But I have to stay pretty small in equipment storage. I am active military and have to move alot. Until I decide enough is enough anyway.

That's great you found someone to take care of the alignment for you..

BUT for anyone else wanting an alignment........
Regarding the newer alignment machines, it in my understanding that since they are computerized most should be able to a 2 wheel alignment & won't need to put any equipment on the rear tires for any of the alignment.
I would ask that question at the alignment shop just to be sure if they say NOPE can't do it....joe

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Originally Posted by MrChips

I was told that a pretty good start for my car was .5 camber, 3deg caster, and no more than 1/16th toe in. I will see what the guy says in a few days.

as for my own equipment, that would be cool. But I have to stay pretty small in equipment storage. I am active military and have to move alot. Until I decide enough is enough anyway.

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I think your specs are pretty good for a starting point, and thank you for your service, by the way. Your MrChips handle takes a new slant!!

"Your MrChips handle takes a new slant!!"

How's that? LOL Actually it comes from my rating. I am a Damage Controman in the Coast Guard. We started out as Carpenters Mates and their nickname was Chips (for woodchips) The Mr is a respect to my grandfather who was a carpenter.
And no need to thank me, I consider it an honor and have considered it an honor for 21+ years now.
Brett

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Originally Posted by MrChips

"Your MrChips handle takes a new slant!!"

How's that? LOL Actually it comes from my rating. I am a Damage Controman in the Coast Guard. We started out as Carpenters Mates and their nickname was Chips (for woodchips) The Mr is a respect to my grandfather who was a carpenter.
And no need to thank me, I consider it an honor and have considered it an honor for 21+ years now.
Brett

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LOL more - sorry, my old addled brain confused two old movies, Goodbye Mr Chips and Mr Roberts, and I had Mr Chips being a military officer. Regardless, thanks for your 21+ years!!