Coolant sludge - why??

A while back I dumped the radiator to do some plumbing changes and the antifreeze was cloudy, but not excessively so and after straining through coffee maker filters am going to reuse as the test strip and volt meter say it's as good as new. Today, and before I put that antifreeze and water back in, decided to pull the engine pipe plugs, dump the rest of the coolant and add petcocks for the future. The crud that came out was almost sludge. Now, before someone say it had to be there from its earlier life, no, that engine was a brand new crate motor, with a brand new Walker radiator and all new hoses. Oh and I'm using distilled water along with the antifreeze.

WHY that crud???
(and that crud, it was deposited on my favorite tree stump in the woods to help kill skeeters later on:3dSMILE:)

By test strip I'm assuming your testing PH ?? Do you have underdrive pulleys? What (who's) anti-freeze?

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Originally Posted by 34_40

By test strip I'm assuming your testing PH ?? Do you have underdrive pulleys? What (who's) anti-freeze?

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pH strips, It's about 9+/- at present with recommended 8.5 to 11 (Prestone is said to be 9)

Pulleys are standard diameter - I'm not a fan of underdrive pulleys on a street driven car. Antifreeze, either Prestone or Peak (green, not the orange Dexcool for aluminum)

Probably from an assortment of leftovers from the manufacturing process of the heads and block, plus whatever dirt and dust got in the system prior to the engine being fired up....

Main reason is you are using a 50/50 mix,which means water and antifreeze. Just because you have antifreeze in a system does not mean you have total corrosion protection. Water will make rust and scale eventually and as the 2 mix will start to also get somewhat acidic. That combination will also get more muddy with time and cycling of the motor. Cycling is the motor getting up to heat and then cooling down after it's turned off.

Just like an air compressor. Heat and cooling down makes the water......soupy like.

Probably both right though I can say that it is not very acidic at a pH of 9+. And as far as cycling - that engine probably doesn't 100 starts in about 2000 miles. I do need to get some more test strips or a pH meter to keep track of the antifreeze deterioration in my vehicles

Usually the first thing that pops up in this type discussion is leaking head or intake gasket, but that may not be it.

Why not get on the horn to the Prestone customer service line and play 20 questions with them?

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Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

Usually the first thing that pops up in this type discussion is leaking head or intake gasket, but that may not be it.

Why not get on the horn to the Prestone customer service line and play 20 questions with them?

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Bob - It would really upset me if my $$$$ Fel Pro Performance level gaskets were leaking. There are no indicators - slimy/greasy coolant or milky oil nor was there any loss of either.

I put a bunch of hot water through the engine yesterday - until the flow ran clear so what I think I'll do is keep an eye on it this spring - and with the added petcocks, it's easy to dump a small amount, and if it continues, harass Prestone and/or Peak as I really don't recall which I have installed as I have jugs of both.

Also, after doing a quick Google, this is not an unusual occurrence, and much worse with GM's Dex Cool.

Do you run an automatic trans with a cooler in the radiator??

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Do you run an automatic trans with a cooler in the radiator??

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Nope - the trans cooler is totally independent of the radiator.

I just sent an inquiry to Peak as Prestone's site said their 'certificate' was invalid.

Talking with either antifreeze company won't get you anywhere. The water is the main culprit.......water will make corrosion, simple and plain.

Actually, to make rust, you need AIR. Water alone will not make rust. An example would be deep sea wrecks that are wooden and are still there centuries later. Even wrecks in the great lakes are very well preserved because the water is very cold and deep with low oxygen contents.

I'm assuming that your radiator elevation rises (when hot) and falls (when cold). It's this headspace where the falling coolant can trap air into the coolant which gets left in the block. The air/water combo is what's attacking the bare metal. I'm wondering if the "catch-can" is to low and allowing an air pocket to develop. And now that you mention it, I'm wondering about my own car. I'm not worried as the cast iron will be along time before a catastrophic failure, but still.

Great topic Dave! Now my mind is curious! :LOL:

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Actually, to make rust, you need AIR. Water alone will not make rust. An example would be deep sea wrecks that are wooden and are still there centuries later. Even wrecks in the great lakes are very well preserved because the water is very cold and deep with low oxygen contents.

I'm assuming that your radiator elevation rises (when hot) and falls (when cold). It's this headspace where the falling coolant can trap air into the coolant which gets left in the block. The air/water combo is what's attacking the bare metal. I'm wondering if the "catch-can" is to low and allowing an air pocket to develop. And now that you mention it, I'm wondering about my own car. I'm not worried as the cast iron will be along time before a catastrophic failure, but still.

Great topic Dave! Now my mind is curious! :LOL:

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What you are describing, Mike, is free oxygen, that is molecules of entrained oxygen(air!) that is not part of the H2O combination. In the case of an automobile cooling system, it's a closed system, opened only when you check the coolant level or boil some of it into the overflow vessel(15psig). It can also happen if the water pump cavitates - but that usually wont happen unless the water level has gotten too low Boiling has happened only once to me - two years ago and that was because I didn't have the fan wired correctly and was fixed immediately after cool down. As far as my overflow/catch can - it's pretty high plus a good size compared to many. I did move it from one side to the other recently, but it's at about the same height.

Another plus with using antifreeze is that it does contain anti corrosives, water wetting agents, raises the boiling point a few degrees.

This is my coolant recovery system:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...d/DSCN1748.jpg

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Originally Posted by IC2

What you are describing, Mike, is free oxygen, that is molecules of entrained oxygen(air!) that is not part of the H2O combination. In the case of an automobile cooling system, it's a closed system, opened only when you check the coolant level or boil some of it into the overflow vessel(15psig). It can also happen if the water pump cavitates - but that usually wont happen unless the water level has gotten too low Boiling has happened only once to me - two years ago and that was because I didn't have the fan wired correctly and was fixed immediately after cool down. As far as my overflow/catch can - it's pretty high plus a good size compared to many. I did move it from one side to the other recently, but it's at about the same height.

Another plus with using antifreeze is that it does contain anti corrosives, water wetting agents, raises the boiling point a few degrees.

This is my coolant recovery system:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...d/DSCN1748.jpg

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Like I said Dave, to make rust, it takes air. Yes, free O2. Not part of the H20. All Tap water contains a level of entrained O2. And yes, the water pump can cause cavitation in the coolant and actually causes the O2 in the coolant to explode. With 25 years in water and wastewater treatment, I know those are the facts! The catch can thought was just that, a HMmmmmm I wonder moment out loud. Fluids seek their own level so I had a thought flash through the brain.

I know on my car the radiator fill is set into the side of the top tank. The very center of the top tank has always made me wonder how full the closed system is. It looks like your radiator is the same.

I'm not really concerned like I said earlier. The cast iron will probably outlive me and most of my family. But like you I'm wondering what's at the bottom of my block and will have to investigate.

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Originally Posted by 34_40

. The cast iron will probably outlive me and most of my family. But like you I'm wondering what's at the bottom of my block and will have to investigate.

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Might be time to pull those Loc Tite covered pipe plugs and it will be a good time to install petcocks. The drains on a Ford are just below spark plugs 1 and 8.

As far as some space in the radiator tank - I would imagine that there is some built in for heated water expansion as you don't really want to lift that radiator cap every time you shut that iron engine down, putting water/coolant at over the atmospheric boiling point into the recovery tank - it becomes steam and will escape. A 15 psig cap moves the boiling point at sea level to close to 250*F

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Originally Posted by IC2

Might be time to pull those Loc Tite covered pipe plugs and it will be a good time to install petcocks. The drains on a Ford are just below spark plugs 1 and 8.

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And that's probably what's going to happen! Dependant on what's found inside, I'll decide on what to re-install. I was just thinking that mine had been filled with a 50/50 mix of Peak anti-freeze and well water. I know my well water has a high iron content anyway, HMmmmmm... :3dSMILE:

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Originally Posted by 34_40

And that's probably what's going to happen! Dependant on what's found inside, I'll decide on what to re-install. I was just thinking that mine had been filled with a 50/50 mix of Peak anti-freeze and well water. I know my well water has a high iron content anyway, HMmmmmm... :3dSMILE:

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Distilled water at Wally World is 82 cents a gallon. You will need two gallons. 1/4" npt petcocks at Advance/Auto Zone are $3.48 each. I use the distilled as we had high calcium content water - what it is now from the Hudson instead of the towns wells, no clue.

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Originally Posted by IC2

Distilled water at Wally World is 82 cents a gallon. You will need two gallons. 1/4" npt petcocks at Advance/Auto Zone are $3.48 each. I use the distilled as we had high calcium content water - what it is now from the Hudson instead of the towns wells, no clue.

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Thanks for the parts list!:LOL:

Regarding your drinking water, Federal law says your to recieve a water quality report showing what in the water or what's been added to it. Also to be included is any limit violations / exceedences for the previous 12 months.

But then it also says the federal gov't. is to create / implement an annual budget right?**)**):whacked::(:(

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Thanks for the parts list!:LOL:

Regarding your drinking water, Federal law says your to recieve a water quality report showing what in the water or what's been added to it. Also to be included is any limit violations / exceedences for the previous 12 months.

But then it also says the federal gov't. is to create / implement an annual budget right?**)**):whacked::(:(

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We get the annual report plus it is on-line .

And that US Budget - http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif

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Originally Posted by IC2

And that US Budget - http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif

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Yep, that's looks about right, a little red x, that's our budget!

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Originally Posted by IC2

We get the annual report plus it is on-line .

And that US Budget - http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing001.gif

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Love the "smiley" !

I was just thinking last night that I can grab a couple gallons of De-ionized water from the local project for free. Not sure what the worth / value might be in relation to rusting but it would assist in less electrolysis...

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Love the "smiley" !

I was just thinking last night that I can grab a couple gallons of De-ionized water from the local project for free. Not sure what the worth / value might be in relation to rusting but it would assist in less electrolysis...

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Deion water still has the minerals though bound molecularly. Distilled water has the minerals stripped out. Trying to remember my steam turbine water chemistry and if I recall, the pH of deionized water is closer to acidic, i.e ~5.5 vs ~7 for distilled (Coke has a pH of 2.5!!!). But at that price, all you need are a couple clean jugs

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Originally Posted by IC2

Deion water still has the minerals though bound molecularly. Distilled water has the minerals stripped out. Trying to remember my steam turbine water chemistry and if I recall, the pH of deionized water is closer to acidic, i.e ~5.5 vs ~7 for distilled (Coke has a pH of 2.5!!!). But at that price, all you need are a couple clean jugs

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That's the beauty of having a plant lab close by. I can run some gallons in both processes if needed. ( I forget the same off the top of my head) Ph is easy to adjust!:D

FYI................all pressure caps will increase boiling point of the water in a 50/50 mix by 3 degrees per lb of cap. So a 15 lb cap will boost boiling point by 45 degrees. Add 45 to 212(boiling point for H2O) and you get 257 degF .

Yep - well aware of that - though you don't need antifreeze to elevate the boiling point, only a pressure cap.

Thanks for reminding those that weren't aware of that