Printable View
Also, I found that the EGR is receiving full vacuum at all times. I'll have to figure that out before putting it back on.
I found a pulse width modulation chart which shows 10* to be rich, and 30* to be almost middle of rich to lean with 50* and above being designated lean. So the system is definitely open loop rich.
Maybe the anemic acceleration is all it has. I'm accustomed to V8s. It's been many years since I drove this car.
So has all the diagnoses been "just for fun?" Kinda I wanna know what this is supposed to do / how is it meant to be? affair. You've been putting in the research time for sure.
At this point probably 5 hours just reading the manual.
I used to own this car previously. It was my daily driver and extremely reliable. I sold it to my brother in law when I joined the army. He paid me $100 and promised to maintain the lawn while I was deployed. That was 2009.
This spring my brother in law decided to start his own business and needed some cash, so I bought it back for $1K, a good deal considering the condition of the car. However, it hasn't run for at least two years. He wasn't able to figure it out, and just left it parked when the new carb didn't fix it.
While it's tempting to just say "Drop a SBC in it!" at 1987 you're in the years when you're required to install either the OEM or newer, including the EPA equipment or risk big fines or being unable to register it, like the post that Mike shared about the RAM truck guy, and Ryan & Seth regarding shops being hit with huge fines for defeating features on diesels. Maybe it's a candidate for a nice 4 cylinder turbo takeout package!! Make it a Hot Rod!!
it's also tempting to fix it factory correct.
This is the first vintage vehicle I have ever come across which is absolutely 100% intact, every vacuum line is still there, nothing has been removed or bypassed, that is just so rare! And the challenge of learning this obsolete technology is endearing. However I just might draw the line at the ECM.
I've confirmed voltage to the TPS, checked the TPS for function, replaced the 02 sensor, and plugged in the temp sensor (oops) and still running in open loop.
I have a NOS carb base gasket but without the heater grid, I might try that next. The old base gasket really looks like kaka. A vacuum leak can mimmick a lean condition and cause the ECM to hold open loop function.
Yeah, if it was a numbers matching '72 or earlier Impala, Biscayne, Corvette or Camaro but a Chevette? Sorry, but that's a personal passion that not many will share. Power to you, but restoring a '87 Chevette to original condition just doesn't excite me.
Restoring to original condition, not a chance!
It is IN original condition, I'm just getting it to run!
After that I don't know.
A nice all - weather back up vehicle maybe. It has ZERO body damage external, so maybe a fresh splash of color, no body filler needed.
I understand the challenge to get it running. It would be interesting to understand how that dwell meter plug affected the circuit. I'm not an electronics wizard, so no help but it makes one wonder...Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird77clone
If you know the needed millivolts to and from the O2 sensor, then add them in ( or take them away) It may be that once it happens the other circuit(s) will react and start working again. It's a thought!Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird77clone
A dummy 02 sensor... Summit has those.
But, I already replaced it. To day I tried a NOS carb gasket, no help.
There are a few more checks I could do, mostly continuity checks, but right now everything is pointing to ECU which is my signal to try the non-computer NOS carb on the kitchen table.
https://www.ebay.com/p/4005588762Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird77clone
Can't beat the price! Could be just the thing or a total dud but for 30 bucks?? Sounds like a winner
...and if you want new you have to spend a little more, but not a ton,
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...computer),2896
But swapping the carb for the earlier, non-electronic version would help pinpoint the problem, and tell you if buying an ECM is a good investment or just another chase of a gremlin.
Ok, today I was killing time on YouTube waiting for a no-sjow customer requesting my welding services when I decided dsm this, let's wrench on the 'vette.
I was utterly convinced that the problem was actually somehow in the head, as the vacuum guage is saying vacuum leak. AND I'm fully aware that the resale value of this NOS carb drops about a bill if I bolt it on. So I remind myself that I didn't purchase it to resell.
Anyway the non computer carb runs great, and apparently the computer IS controlling timing, confirmed by the timing light. Must be using the tach input from the dizzy because EVERYTHING vacuum is unplugged.
Right now it looks like a headlight away from being road worthy.
A couple experiments today:
I have these small cans of clear paint from work that came with the machines and we don't use them. I've been wondering how it would function using it as resin for fiberglass.
Well the thin fiberglass tail light buckets are deteriorated in a spot on the passenger side. To be precise, the resin has deteriorated and the fiberglass is braking apart. So, using a cheap paintbrush i coated the fiberglass bucket in its entirety hoping the paint will soak in and act as a resin. Then I painted some pieces of fiberglass cloth and applied them to the broken spot. Beyond it being more thin and runny compared to resin, I didn't see much difference. I'm interested to see how it sets up.
The other experiment involves soaking the instrument cluster bulbs and sockets in vinegar to remove the corrosion. This car was in Panama City Fla gor a few years and the salt air certainly didn't do the car any favors. I had to remove the dash pad to get the cluster out, no fun. Also, it turn out that the speedo needle is brittle and broke at the slightest touch, so that gets a drop of super glue.
This is so exciting!
Just a couple of hours in and the contacts on the bulb sockets look shiny clean from the vinegar bath.
It is getting chill outside so I put a work lamp on the fiberglass repair to keep it hot so it can cure. On the rest of the fiberglass bucket it looks like the clear paint soaked in completely. If any of you ever built gas nitro powered stick and paper airplane models, what Dad called "dope" treated the paper making it stronger, tighter, and fuel resistant. This clear paint smells exactly like that stuff.
I was never a big fan of Super Glue, and ya'll will probably say you've been using it for years, but if you haven't discovered "super glue accelerator" in the spray can it's a game changer! I generally pick it up at the Rockler woodworking store, the glue & accelerator together. Apply the glue, align the pieces and give it a tiny blast of accelerator and it cures immediately! Love the stuff!Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird77clone
That accelerator was distributed as, I think, zip kicker back in the day. Unfortunately all I have currently is some gell type which sets slow, so I had to position the cluster so the needle was perfectly straight up so it could dry, came out ok. Now to not break it again, very delicate.
The issue with the corroded bulb sockets has me rethinking the ECU. Remember that I could have done signal checks to the ecu? Now it seems like a good idea. I'll bet every electrical connection in this car is compromised.
This is the stuff that I picked up, medium thick plus activator.
-
Attachment 74733
For the guage cluster circuit board membrane i used some anti oxidizer electrical contact cleaner and q tips. For the plug, the electrical cleaner and a brass brush.
I scanned the electrical diagrams for troubleshooting the back up lights and blower motor, came across the stepped speed control so I studied that too. Quite complex. I'm still not understanding exactly how the timing is controlled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Or a CORVETTE.
Ken,Quote:
Originally Posted by NTFDAY
It said,Grab another beer? ;):LOL:Quote:
...if it was a numbers matching '72 or earlier Impala, Biscayne, Corvette or Camaro....
Just kidding, Ken, just kidding!
That's funny stuff!
Today I thought I had the electrical straight, but I forgot to check the wipers.
Yep, Nope. So wipers are next to troubleshoot.
Today I fixed the back up lights and fan blower (same fuse) and the blinkers.
Dug through the stash and found a headlight (halogen even) got it in. Needs new adjusters. The screws are rusty and plastic fragile. Headlights clearly angled badly.
Picked up trans seals front and back, hope they fit.
Using the clear paint instead of resin for fiberglass seems to be a win.
Soaking in vinegar to remove light corrosion is a win.
Check engine light is on for ever. I pulled the bulb then realized if ever i wanted to look at codes, I think it's the check engine light that blinks. So I put it back.
Calling a chevette a vette is tantamount to calling a mid 60's Chevy II a deuce, pure blasphemy.
At least when I stop banging my head off the wall... the pain stops too!Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird77clone
Was there some hidden meaning with the stack of newly sharpened knives as a back drop? Freudian slip perhaps? rotflmao!! :eek::LOL::eek::LOL::3dSMILE:**)Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Nope, no hidden meaning or Freudian slip for me. Just a countertop space without regard for the background! If that's Freudian then I'll yield to Dr Freud!Quote:
Originally Posted by 34_40
hi again guys
No end to the amusement.
Water coming in when it rains.
Passenger side front floorboard and driver side rear.
Front might be windshield, I ran some clear roofing sealant, we'll see. Rear driver's, IDK.
I'm thinking two things:
One: I understand the interior rust.
Two: a cover would help. I used one for my 78 firebird. It was the only car in the parking lot not rusting.
Or like a four door nomad?Quote:
Originally Posted by NTFDAY
I had one of those too.
Oh, also, the fuel guage is fixed. I dropped the tank completely convinced the sending unit was bad. Turned out it was just the ground. But it did get the dirt cleaned off the tank.
I pulled the speedometer and gave it a few drops of turbine oil to quiet it down. It helped some. Maybe a few more miles will work the oil in better.
Almost ready to use it for daily commute. I'm super excited to see what milage it gets.
Ok, more adventures with the 'vette.
I had a gentleman ask can it make it to HotLanta (2 hr drive) and he'll buy it when he comes through next week.
(I'll believe it when I see it)
Anyway I got s bit of free time, do I looked at the smog pump which I thought was rattling. Nope, it was the water pump. How the he'll there can be so much play in the impeller shift and it not leak is beyond me.
So I ebay a NOS pump and take a quick look at the factory manual to see what im up against:
#1 set engine to TDC compression #1
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Who the hell puts the water pump behind a timing belt?!
So, belt, front seal, install tool are on the way, pump arrived today and is in.
Which brings me to the point:
In the process I was able to see that the cam sprocket had slipped retarded one tooth, which explains the abysmal acceleration.
Is there a way to diagnose cam timing without physically looking at the timing marks (AKA tearing stuff apart)?
I don't know if there is room for it but, you might bolt a degree wheel to the crank and fashion a pointer with a wire hanger... you can find'em on Jegs or Summit.Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird77clone
I may not understand the problem, but isn't it just getting #1 to TDC Compression, removing the old timing belt, aligning the marks on the crank & cam gears with reference marks and sliding a new belt back in place?Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird77clone
Can't help much with the Chevette timing issue( I do think Roger is correct), but having the water pump driven by the timing belt is very common on overhead cam engines. I first ran across it on an early 80's Ford Escort engine (also the first time I ran into torque to yield head bolts). I think the 3.5 V6 that was in my wife's Charger had the same setup. That's why it is recommended to change the water pump when you change the timing belt(s). I do agree that it just makes things more difficult for the mechanic. What should just be a quick job becomes an ordeal, but it is cheaper for the manufacturer.Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird77clone
The only thing I can say about the timing issue is that all of the engines I have changed belts on (and that ain't many) have had marks on or near the timing cover that the pulleys have to point to to be considered in time.
I looked a bit more for specifics on your '78 Chevette and it appears that there is a Quick Check hole in the cam sprocket that aligns with a hole in the front cover when the crank timing mark is aligned at #1 TDC. Later pictures call out a "lock bolt" where the '78 diagram says "Quick Check Hole" but you may find it's threaded to allow a bolt to hold the cam in position? Link to Pic - https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cO1aeFeDro Pretty straight forward.
I would love to see pics of your "Vette" . I love the oddball stuff! I even joined a Facebook group called Undesired Survivors.
Thanks for the feedback, as usual I poorly worded my question.
I know how to set the timing. As the guy in the video says, it's pretty easy. My question was, (not this specific engine) is there a way to confirm the cam timing without actually tearing things apart and visually inspecting timing marks.
It seems that this is one of those diagnostic steps which doesn't have a shortcut.
Thanks
This is the cheapest I've seen. Bolt it to the front on the crank and turn the motor while reading the wheel.
this is the best shortcut I know of. and it can work for each cylinder..
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...1001?rrec=true
To get accurate info wouldn't you really want the head(s) off to get true TDC and zero your degree wheel, and then to work off of lifters on the cam? I guess pulling the valve cover and working at a rocker arm is good for the cam measurements, and there are other reliable ways to find exact TDC, like the water tube method, so a guy could zero his wheel and verify/set cam timing without tearing things apart if his cam gear has provisions for adjustment. Just thinking this is most often done when installing a cam, to double check it against the cam data sheet.Quote:
Originally Posted by 34_40
It'sa Chevette! Get the marks lined up and call it good imho.. But, the guy wants some info on the cheap and it isn't like he can even gain a lot of horse power, but he wants whatever it can give. I get it. Yes, there are many ways to skin this cat, and even if you find an error, what'cha gonna do, custom grind an offset key? I doubt any/many speed parts existed and I ain't looking up a cam for a Chevette! LOL..
