aldan eagle shock question

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09-20-2009, 09:05 AM
atichargr

aldan eagle shock question

When I first got my 29 it had aldan coil overs on it.. the car was leaning to the right.. in the rear ( has sadle tanks and the battery on the right side).. I took all kinds of measurments and found everything to be equal as far as brackets etc... then I found that all the shock bolts were bent.. I replaced them and it made a big difference (gas tanks almost empty) after filling the car I once again got a lean to the right.. so I have come to the conclusion that the spring rate needs to be upped to stop the lean... now with the bolts all being bent.. I recently finished the car and took it for a drive down the highway and noticed that every big bump felt as if it launced the rear so the conclution I came to here is that the shocks aren't adjusted correct and that is why the bolts also were bent... now the shocks have adjustment knobs on the top of them but I don't know how or which way to turn these and how much of a difference a small turn would make... does any one have any info on this that can give me some insight on this problem here is the car
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...w/CIMG5401.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...w/CIMG5402.jpg

thanks,
simon
09-20-2009, 10:34 AM
Itoldyouso

Simon, lets see some pictures of the rear suspension, especially the shock bolts.

Don
09-20-2009, 11:05 AM
atichargr

here are a few pics if you can make heads and tails of them... a little hard to get under there and take them (since I have to hold the card in the camera)
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...w/CIMG5415.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...w/CIMG5414.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...w/CIMG5413.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...w/CIMG5412.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...w/CIMG5411.jpg
the bent bolts are long gone... they were bent right at the threads basically between the spacer and bracket... I thought that they might of just been loose... anyway right now when I hit big bumps it feels as if the rear gets launched off the ground like the shocks are too stiff...
09-20-2009, 11:45 AM
Itoldyouso

Those things look way too stout IMO. What rate are they, and what was their original application? Could just be the pictures but the coils look very thick. Not much travel between coils either.

Don
09-20-2009, 12:56 PM
atichargr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Those things look way too stout IMO. What rate are they, and what was their original application? Could just be the pictures but the coils look very thick. Not much travel between coils either.

Don

I could not tell you , they were on the car when I bought it

simon
09-20-2009, 01:21 PM
atichargr

okay I do see what you are saying about the springs coils being very close... okay so If I was to start over... still use the coil overs shocks I have and order new springs, how do I go about getting the height and spring rate? I read on aldan page that it should have 200 lbs springs for a small block chevy full fendered model A, okay but how do I work out the length spring I will need?? I like the stance where it is... I just think it is too stiff.. like I said it feels as if the rear gets launched on a big bump at highway speeds

thanks,
simon
09-20-2009, 01:44 PM
Dave Severson

It doesn't appear that you have much travel on the shocks.... If the coils bind when you hit a bump, then something has to give and it will be the bolts!!!! With the car at ride height, at least 40% of the shock rod should be exposed....

Aldan's, as with most of the street rod coilovers, have about 3" of travel...It's critical to have enough shock working area to keep from coil binding the springs.... IMO, 200 is way to much spring rate for the rear of an A sedan... If you could scale the car and get at least the total weight it would help.... Front and rear weights would be super to get the correct rate and height spring... Just guessing, I'd say about 110 to 130 pound springs would be correct.... By looking at the way your coilovers appear, someone bought to high of a rate spring, and has the adjustment ring all the way down to compensate for it....Almost appears that the coils are doing nothing cuz they're too stiff and all the suspension is just the shock itself.....
09-20-2009, 01:59 PM
Don Dalton

Simon, I think DON is right.they look to close on the coils.DO you have them adjusted at all?I could not see in the picture.IF you look in my photo gallery you can see mine have a wide spacing and they are adjusted(RING NUT) for the look I wanted. The adjusting knob should be set for the ride you like. I have mine set at the highest number,which gives me a firm ride. I have 400 # front 200 # rear.
09-20-2009, 02:17 PM
techinspector1

I'm not known for a delicate approach to ANYTHING and this will be no exception. Tear out all that fosdick mess and start over with a set of double adjustable Aldan #758 shocks (5" travel). Install 'em on 15.3" centers at 30 degrees from vertical with 175 lb springs and for heaven's sake, make some man-sized double-shear mounts for 'em. Having 'em hangin' out there on the end of a bolt is just stupid.
09-20-2009, 04:20 PM
Dave Severson

1 Attachment(s)

Here's a chart for you to look at, the angle of the shock has a lot to do with the springs selected...
09-20-2009, 05:15 PM
atichargr

Quote:

Originally Posted by techinspector1

I'm not known for a delicate approach to ANYTHING and this will be no exception. Tear out all that fosdick mess and start over with a set of double adjustable Aldan #758 shocks (5" travel). Install 'em on 15.3" centers at 30 degrees from vertical with 175 lb springs and for heaven's sake, make some man-sized double-shear mounts for 'em. Having 'em hangin' out there on the end of a bolt is just stupid.

Okay thanks again for the advice , but what length spring do I want?? that is where I am getting mixed up aswell

simon
09-20-2009, 05:21 PM
Dave Severson

Quote:

Originally Posted by atichargr

Okay thanks again for the advice , but what length spring do I want?? that is where I am getting mixed up aswell

simon

Spring length is determined by the length of the coilover..... Not really an option on the length once you select the length coilover you want to use....

The longer travel (5" stroke) coilovers sure do help out the ride and handling on a car!!!!
09-20-2009, 05:31 PM
Itoldyouso

I've studied your pictures and still am not clear on what your rear suspension is set up at. It looks to me like your frame is very close to the top of the axle housing. When I first saw your pictures after you had it painted I felt the rear was a little low making the tires too close to the fenders. I edited the one picture to turn it right side up, and it appears your shocks are set up that way to get the car as low as it is.

I would disconnect the shocks and raise the car up a couple of inches in the back and then take a measurement from the bottom perch to the top perch and order a set of 140 lb coilovers that rest at that dimension. I think it is a distinct possiblility your frame is contacting the housing, or at least being prevented from doing so by the shocks bottoming out.

Don
09-20-2009, 05:33 PM
Dave Severson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I would disconnect the shocks and raise the car up a couple of inches in the back and then take a measurement from the bottom perch to the top perch and order a set of 140 lb coilovers that rest at that dimension. I think it is a distinct possiblility your frame is contacting the housing, or at least being prevented from doing so by the shocks bottoming out.

Don

Good plan Don, this would certainly account for all the bent mount bolts....!!!!
09-20-2009, 05:34 PM
Itoldyouso

1 Attachment(s)

Oh, here is the picture turned the right way so we don't have to turn our heads upside down. :D:D

Don
09-20-2009, 05:41 PM
atichargr

okay one other thing is that when I have the car at the height I want it from upper mount to lower mount is 13 inches so would the 758 shocks be too long?

simon
09-20-2009, 05:46 PM
Dave Severson

Those take a 15.3 center to center mount height so you would have to redo the mounts.....Which wouldn't be a bad idea.... As Tech mentioned, coilovers mounted in double shear would be a better plan....
09-20-2009, 05:47 PM
atichargr

I wouldn't mind it being a couple of inches higher either, okay here is a thought... I know it isn't the right way, but I am paying for a honey moon and wedding stuff right now so money is a little tight... what if I was to get 180lb spring 12" and raise the car by two inches, would that make the ride a little "better" until I can get the new shocks? with the wieght of the car my springs now are compressed to about 7" I am not sure how much they compress with the car on them, does 5 inches sound about right, for a 12 inch spring to compress? would it be worth while at all to just try raise the car a few inches by adjusting the shocks and see if the changes anything? I know that the coils are very close together but is it possible that when I hit a bump at highway speeds that the shocks are bottoming out giving me that rough feeling making it feel as if it is being lauched in the air?
09-20-2009, 05:56 PM
Itoldyouso

I would call Aldan tomorrow and talk to one of their tech people. Otherwise you might spend hundreds of dollars and still not have ones that will work.

Don
09-20-2009, 05:58 PM
Dave Severson

Raising the car brings other considerations concerning the control arm heights, pinion angle, etc.... What kind of bar setup does the rearend have, and are they adjustable for bar height and length to keep the pinion angle correct.....
09-20-2009, 06:23 PM
atichargr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Raising the car brings other considerations concerning the control arm heights, pinion angle, etc.... What kind of bar setup does the rearend have, and are they adjustable for bar height and length to keep the pinion angle correct.....

yes my lower arms are adjustable at the ends that mount to the frame, do you think that lifting it a couple of inches to give the shocks a little more travel will help for the time being till more funds are avalible? I only really need to drive it next month for the wedding.
09-20-2009, 06:29 PM
Dave Severson

As long as you can keep the lower arms parallel with the ground and maintain an acceptable pinion angle, you should be ok for a temporary fix till downtime and funds will permit a proper fix.....
09-20-2009, 06:35 PM
atichargr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

As long as you can keep the lower arms parallel with the ground and maintain an acceptable pinion angle, you should be ok for a temporary fix till downtime and funds will permit a proper fix.....

okay I looked under the car and the drive shaft shouldn't be a problem it is pretty deep in the trans... almost looks as if the car use to be higher with how deep it is... and my rear joint is pretty straight so I will try to raise it a couple of inches in the next day or so and see how my shaft and angle looks and that my lower arms are parallel with the ground... then see how it feels hopefully it will be a little better for the ride to the wedding.... or I will be like one of those guys going 45mph on the highway with there 4 ways on and everyone blowing there horns at them LOL... Dave thanks for the help and everyone else that has chimed in here it is nice to know that there are so many helpful people out there!!!! thanks everyone

simon
09-20-2009, 06:38 PM
techinspector1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I would call Aldan tomorrow and talk to one of their tech people. Otherwise you might spend hundreds of dollars and still not have ones that will work.

Don

Exactly Don, I wouldn't expect anyone to take my word on this, spending 600 bucks for new coilovers and doing extensive re-work for bracketry, although I do have extensive experience in fabrication just as you do and did consult the Aldan website for dimensions. I've used Aldan Eagles in other builds also, so I'm not totally unfamiliar with them.

Aldan recommends layin' in the units at 30 degrees from vertical and I calculated the 15.3" center to center install length at 66% of travel from compressed just as recommended by Aldan on a 12"-17", 5" travel shock.

Multiplying the 175# spring rate by .75 (30 degrees from vertical) as shown in the chart posted by Dave results in an effective spring rate of 131 lbs, pretty close to what Dave recommended in post #7. I feel that this would be close to right also, taking into consideration the light weight of the rear end of the sedan, relative to the front end weight. Of course, if Simon knows the weight on the rear tires, he can give that info to Aldan and get a professional opinion.

As far as mounting, hanging a shock absorber off studs is ok, because the only force applied to the stud is the resistance of the fluid in the shock housing to the piston moving up and down. But when you are using a coilover, you have the entire weight of the rear of the car applied to the studs and they just are not up to the task of handling it. It's poor engineering. You need to mount coilovers in double shear with, like I said, man-sized bracketry.

Simon, I know it's easy for me to spend your money on a forum such as this, but you need to get your head wrapped around new double shear brackets. Use the coilovers I suggested (after talking with Aldan) and fabricate new brackets to install the coilovers on 15.3" centers (or whatever Aldan suggests). Chock up the body on blocks, remove the old coilovers and brackets, raise the body to the desired ride height with the rear tires on the floor and build brackets to bolt the coilovers on at 15.3" (or whatever Aldan suggests). Then it's only a matter of installing the coilovers and threading the spring rings up on the body of the shock to get the ride height correct, just when the spring begins lifting the body off the blocks. Done. Then it's just a matter of driving the car and adjusting the bump and droop knobs on the top and bottom of the shocks until you're happy with the results.
09-20-2009, 07:01 PM
techinspector1

Quote:

Originally Posted by atichargr

and that my lower arms are parallel with the ground...

Depending on whether you have a 4-bar or 4-link, you don't necessarily have to have the lower control arms parallel with the ground. On a 4-link system, you would want the lower arm to angle up towards the front a certain amount to intersect with the line drawn through the upper arms to establish your squat/anti-squat point. What arrangement do you have as far as the upper arm(s). Is there any adjustment in the front placement of the pivot point on the arms?
09-21-2009, 03:48 AM
atichargr

I will check when I get home tonight and see what if the upper bars are adjustable... I am not sure I do know the bottoms are... I assume I could buy new upper and lower mounts? I assume when you are saying 15.3 inches off the center of the diff... or is that from top center of shock to top center of shock .if that is from the diff it would put them on a higher part of the frame where it bumps up for the center of the diff... also I have never welded anything that thick I guess it would be the same as the roof etc.. just more heat and adjusted till you get the nice bacon sounding sizzle? I am sure after my wedding next month there won't be a whole lot of driving of the car so I can probably get to work on it then... I just need it for one more drive this year... I will try adjust the ones on there for now to get a little more shock travel for the "wedding ride" then I will be out of the woods and I will look in to new brackets, 758's and springs... Thanks Dave.. I will look and see what the upper arms look like when I get home this evening

simon
09-21-2009, 02:46 PM
atichargr

well I called aldan about my shock situation today... and they suggested before doing anything to adjust the shocks I have... they say who ever put them on may of read ready to install and just thrown them on there... so they rec adjusting them by getting the car at the height I want it then place stands under the frame then adjust the springs till it just lifts off the stands.. then see how they feel the said just cause the coils are close doesn't mean much ... they want me to try that first.. I guess they are being honest since they wern't tring to just take my money on a new pair of coil overs... and they said If I still don't like the way it rides they will try figure out what I have and see if they can work with that or if I need to change my whole setup... well I am at the very least going to get some stronger upper mounts that is for sure... so we will see what happens when I get a chance to get out there and raise it up... thanks for all the help guys!!!!
09-21-2009, 05:49 PM
atichargr

evolvo,
Funny I Never thought of that ..... I will try that and see... the guy at Aldan was acutally asking me if there was another mounting point to gain more travel.. I have been so focused on the body and getting it painted that I didn't pay much attention to the suspension till I finally got it on the road.. I wil try and see what happens...

Simon
09-30-2009, 04:43 PM
atichargr

techinspector1
I tried adjusting those shocks on my car... they are done.. they will not adjust the threads must be knurled... so I have to get new shocks... I jacked the car up and found it to be about 14.5 inches from center bolt to center bolt... so I have to get new coil overs... I was thinking you mentioned the 758's raising the car one more inch to the 15.3 would be fine... then I will make new mounts after the wedding... now my question is this do I go with 140lbs springs or 120lbs.. say if I went with the 120's would the adjusters of the shock make enough difference to stiffen it if it is too soft? I have no expirence with the adjustments

simon
09-30-2009, 05:39 PM
Itoldyouso

I think 140's would be the best, but that is just my opinion.:)

Don
10-01-2009, 04:14 AM
atichargr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I think 140's would be the best, but that is just my opinion.:)

Don

thanks Don,
I will call aldan eagle again today and see what they have to say... I took all kinds of measurments so I have everything I need when I talk to them except the weight of the car.. the old shocks are history.. I can't turn the adusting ring but maybe one turn on one and two on the other shock.. I can spin the spring by hand.. and then I tried to pull hard to get them to tighten and now I can't even loosen them... so I will just buy new ones, and then in the spring make my new mounts for them... for now I will put them on so I can have my wedding ride...

thanks
for the help
simon
10-02-2009, 04:16 AM
atichargr

aldan eagle wants me to get measurments of my full suspension travel to get the right length shocks.... my question is how do I do this as far as the up most travel ?

thanks,
simon
10-02-2009, 08:23 AM
IC2

My .02 worth.

I'm not sure what chassis you have but one picture makes me believe that it's a TCI or a clone. For whatever reason, TCI likes to supply too heavy a set of springs on their Aldens. So far TCI have paid the shot to replace my fronts and since I've been so long building the car, I'll probably have to change the rears out on my buck. They supplied 300# fronts(now have 250# and might need 200#) and 250# rears - and for an 'A' roadster. I'm just finishing it off now, but there is NO downward movement, even with the almost full '32 style gas tank in the rear when I get in the car, so that leads me to believe that I'll be spending my $45 or so each soon for something like a 150-175.

As a suggestion, when you pull the coil overs off, you might try to disassemble them on the bench, cleaning up the threads and lubing the adjuster (you did loosen the lock ring?). It might just save you a few (a lot!) bucks. Mine are assembled with anti seize (I hope you have the right spanner wrench to use)
10-02-2009, 09:44 AM
nutbush

I dont mean to sound ignorant but...

Could someone please explain what a "double shear mount" is as opposed to other mounts?

thanks
Jeff

**edit** Ok, I just figured it out. I wasnt ignorant after all. Just didnt know it by that terminology.
10-02-2009, 02:04 PM
IC2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evolvo

IC2,
If we add your .02 to my .02 we almost have a nickel! I noticed your comment about using anti-seize on your shock adjuster threads. My .02's says this is a bad idea. Think of all the dust, dirt & grit coming off the road as you drive by. A lot of this stuff will wind up stuck to the anti-seize left (no matter how much cleaning you do) on the adjuster threads and will ball up and form a wedge that gets driven between the ring and threads when you attempt to make a ride height change. This causes galling and can destroy a shock in short order. Anti-seize is great stuff and using it like you did seems like a good idea at first, especially with new shocks in a (sorta) clean shop environment. The initial adjustments would be easy in these conditions. Its adjustments after the car has been on the dirty road I would worry about.
So IMO (we have our $.05 now) the correct way to install coil overs is with no lube on the threads. And to make adjustments you need to jack the loaded wheels off the ground to unload the spring as much as possible, clean the threads as well as you can and then adjust ride height. More of a PITA, but safer for the equipment in the long run.

E - I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree:eek: - but no big thing - I can disagree with my DW and really have a 'fun time'. Now, for a nickles worth of why I use anti sieze:

To a point - yes, you are correct, but in my neck of the woods, regardless of the time of year there is some level of sodium chloride (deicing salt!!) coming out of the road surface and we all know what happens to aluminum with salt - that dreaded word, corrosion (rust on steel). Now, when I say use anti seize, I don't mean grab that big can of silver stuff and your favorite 4" house paint brush, I mean put a very light film on - just enough to stop corrosion. I know, more is better, lots more is best in many cases, but here, the least amount that covers is where you want to be. I had a very stiff front adjuster - and it was because the big lock nut had started to gall. I pulled the entire coil over, cleaned up my galled spot, then took the assembly apart. It wasn't dirt but poor assembly by TCI.

Now in a few more exchanges we MIGHT have enough for a Starbucks regular coffee (none of that $5 latte crap)
10-02-2009, 04:37 PM
atichargr

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC2

My .02 worth.

I'm not sure what chassis you have but one picture makes me believe that it's a TCI or a clone. For whatever reason, TCI likes to supply too heavy a set of springs on their Aldens. So far TCI have paid the shot to replace my fronts and since I've been so long building the car, I'll probably have to change the rears out on my buck. They supplied 300# fronts(now have 250# and might need 200#) and 250# rears - and for an 'A' roadster. I'm just finishing it off now, but there is NO downward movement, even with the almost full '32 style gas tank in the rear when I get in the car, so that leads me to believe that I'll be spending my $45 or so each soon for something like a 150-175.

As a suggestion, when you pull the coil overs off, you might try to disassemble them on the bench, cleaning up the threads and lubing the adjuster (you did loosen the lock ring?). It might just save you a few (a lot!) bucks. Mine are assembled with anti seize (I hope you have the right spanner wrench to use)

thanks for your .02 cents... so you think that these shocks acutally may have come with the frame.. never thought of that.. well as far as the shocks go I do have the correct spanner wrench (I havn't heard that in years I am English and since I moved out of my parents house havn't heard that ) and I don't think I can't even budge the aduster on one shock and the other only turns about 2 turns... I am sure the threads are done! I know how aluminum threads tend to get destroyed pretty easily... A/c lines are the worst.. anyway I will try to figure out how to get my up most travel measurments..

thanks
simon
10-02-2009, 04:44 PM
nutbush

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evolvo

A friend of mine used to build custom bicycle frames, he called them "Redbush Bikes". When I asked how he came up with that name he showed me a photo of his red headed wife. What's your story?

Well, Tina Turner wrote a song long ago called Nutbush City. A dear friend and mentor of mine and I were out at Whiterock Lake in Dallas years ago in his 65 fuelie and that song came on the radio. Only it was the Bob Segar version. We had such a good time watching the topless sunbathing girls, I started calling him Nutbush. He passed away from cancer in 1981. I use the name online because he was the person responsible for teaching me about Corvette restoration. He's been gone a long time, I miss him.
10-02-2009, 05:30 PM
IC2

Simon - that's the only wrench that I use the word spanner for as it really does span a distance. I actually do have a working knowledge of English English after having a couple of projects there as well as having had a daughter live there for several years. As far as messing up a/c threads - not yet, but probably....soon (except I pulled mine out for just a Vintage Air heater - which uses the same kind of fittings:eek:)

Evolvo - we totally agree on coffee. I've never drink anything but good ol' black, caffeinated, strongest you can get without being bitter, coffee. I've even shocked Brazilians drinking their tar that way. Never had a latte, probably never will:D
10-04-2009, 05:35 PM
atichargr

last shock question before ordering

Okay I did the mearsurments that aldan told me to take... they told me the car should compress the spring about an inch... that is what I get with the weight of the car... they are 220# 10" springs... I think they are 655 extended 15" compressed 11.3" travel of 3.7 ".. so if those shocks were adjusted for the proper ride height they probably would of worked，but now I can't adjust them I　think I have to replace them... does a 12 inch spring make any differecne as far as ride quality vs a 10 spring... becuase I was thinking of may be going with the 658 they extend to 16.5" compressed to 11.5" travel 5 inches.. so If I mount them at 14.5" that should be correct and that is the height I want them to be at anyway... and the 5 inches of travel should be a nicer ride correct?? any input on this would be appriciated since I plan on ordering them tomorrow

thanks,
simon
10-05-2009, 02:51 PM
atichargr

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evolvo

atichargr,
Have you asked Aldan if they might be able to repair your shocks. Since you say the shocks would have worked if adjusted correctly. I'm sure your galled set will not be the first ones they have ever seen. Cutting the jammed rings off and cleaning the damaged threads is certainly doable, save you some money for the honeymooooon!!
Alan

Yes I asked them and they said they could do that , and to be honest I could do it as well I have plenty of tread files at work... but when I talked with aldan today they mentioned that a 5 inch travel makes a pretty big difference in the way the car rides... and a one inch longer shock would probably get my ride height where I want it... they also told me the best way to adjust there shocks is to turn the spring up 1 inch, then put "antiseize on the threads and adjust them down from there.. they said turning them up one inch should put them higher than you want them so adjust them down... short story long I think I am going to go with some 658's with the 220# springs.... they are 16.5 inches and 11.5 compressed with a 5 inch travel... they said with the the preload on the spring and the weight of the car that should drop it 2" putting it at 14.5" where in one of my original posts on this thread you see that is what I was looking for.. There is also someone who is building a model T and recently lost his job and moved and needs a set of shocks ... So if I can help him out and get better ride in the end I did 2 good things....
as far as the Honeymoon goes I already payed for that it is all inclusive at the Sandles resort in the Bahamas... so I shouldn't need much money there :cool:

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