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Random thought . . . Don has a 700R4, which can be made to lock up at any time with the right switch.Quote:
If you run a 3000 rpm stall converter and highway speeds have the engine running 2600 rpm or so, you're generating quite a bit of heat due to the converter never does lock up.
Quote:
Originally posted by Henry Rifle
Random thought . . . Don has a 700R4, which can be made to lock up at any time with the right switch.
True . . . my fault for getting into answering two questions in the same post and not making myself clear.
Quoting FMX Hellraiser.Quote:
have that built C4 with automatic valve body going into my 66. It has a shift kit and 2300-2500 stall converter.
C9x, thanks a lot for all the help! I am going to stick with the stock pan for now and upgrade when I can. The guy at the shop said for me it's not really needed too bad and that I will be good with the stock. How much are the temp gauges for the tranny? I want to buy a fairly good one and accurate because I may change ALL my gauges out since all but the oil pressure are broke. I am giving a drum lesson this comming week for 2 hours so I will have 50 bucks by next week. I am guessing that will be just enough for a fairly good accurate gauge?
Thanks again! I am learning a lot from this thread too.
blwn31, I know what you mean, it will look different for sure and the body already looks like "plastic" similar to the look Corvettes have had for many years. Esthetically (? I am better with numbers than at spelling) I don't think that would be any worse than some extreme cases I have seen of '27 and '29 roadsters with tubbed "pro-stock" rear tires on a narrowed 9" rear; that looks really strange to me on the street, although logical at the track. Then again there have been a few very long dragster bodies set up to run on the street. My problem has been that I am not good at returning stuff, although I recently returned a fuel cell to Summit that was just too high/thick for my space, and I have had the radiator in a box for almost 6 months so I don't know whether I could send it back. I note my wife has taken chairs, rugs and other large items back on a whim many times. Another problem is that I went into this project thinking I could take a mid-price range approach and chose the simpler radiator on that basis. Now I have learned that you just have to buy or make what "works" and sometimes that can be an expensive item, the R700 is a case in point. No doubt a lot of the cars built on this Forum are top quality and of course there is a general "look" agreed upon, but I am not sure I will reach that level and at this point I want what works to get the car running.
Still I will give it some more thought. Maybe a long stretch of copper tubing down and back along the right side of the frame would be enough if C9 only needs a spreader bar tube, but the front location seems to be important.
C9, thanks for the reference on the ventilated pan. I need to check the clearence behind the engine pan. If the trans pan is no lower than the engine pan I will go with that or the B&M higher volume pan, but thanks to this thread I realize that the R700 may need some TLC in the heat cooling dept.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Quote:
Originally posted by DennyW
Hi Don, I was just sitting here thinking about the different transmissions, and realized that in some of the older gm transmissions, we used to use ford fluid instead of dextron, to give them a better bite, and less chance of slipage. Maybe some of the up to date fellows will chime in on this ?
Denny, not sure how up-to-date I am, but I run Ford trans fluid in my T-400.
42,000 miles, no probs so far.
Recommended by a trans shop owing friend who did the trans for me.
I believe he put in organic clutches and that's why.
Organic may be the wrong word, but I'm pretty sure it's similar to the clutch material Ford uses.
One small recommendation, if you install a shift kit go for the mildest one.
Especially if the trans is behind a somewhat torquey engine.
I had the lightest shift kit installed and it's just right in my 2400# roadster.
I didn't want the thing popping off 2nd gear rubber in normal traffic driving.
Shift manually though and the tires hit 2nd very hard.
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Don, not sure where the Derale pan will sit height-wise behind your engine, but in my 32 the bottom of the Derale trans pan is even with the bottom of the stock exterior oil pan.
Ground clearance with the engine pan is 6".
Not as low as it seems, when the car was first built the pan was 7" off the ground.
I worried about that and measured the Pinto I was driving at the time.
The Pinto had 6" clearance.
I'd never hit anything with the Pinto pan and the 32 has never dragged anything.
Speed bumps and angled driveways are no problem.
Lowest point on the car are the collectors at 5 1/2" off the ground.
Don you need to find out from the people that built that trans. what kind of cooler they think you need and what kind of trans. fluid they want you to run. if something happen to it (if they are like most co.) they'll be looking for some way out of the warranty I'm sure if you have some kind of cooler you'll be OK, but you need to know what kind of fluid they recommend. For the st. all you need to do is to keep it clean, neat and simple. **)
Sorry to make a bigger deal out of this than it is. I am learning and it is amazing that building from the ground up requires so many details. My hat is off to Brian Rupnow for sharing his buildup of a RPU with us over the last year and I am greatly impressed by the quality features on C9's '32 but I am learning as I go. Here is my latest finding from the Monster Motorsport rebuilder of my 700R4 Raptor Stage 1 trans. He doesn't like the stack type coolers at all and rates them the worst design because they clog up easily and then don't flow at all so he recommends the tube-fin type to maintain easy flow, and of course a filter similar to C9's setup is a good idea. So FMX can take some comfort in the better flow of a tube-fin cooler. The Raptor Tech guy strongly favors a location in the front of the car or to include blwn31's comments about strange appearance of the external cooler in a place where a louver or some sort of air scoop can guarantee air flow. He agrees with me that underneath the body there are competing heat issues with heat from the exhaust system. Finally, to answer lts10's question he says that the key component in the trans fluid is the "Mercon" which Ford had all along and is now in Dextron III but was not in the earlier GM Dextron; my limited warranty will not be effected if I just use the Ford Mercon fluid from the outset (which I plan to do). So it looks like the free cooler from Henry Rifle in the front apron is not a good idea and blwn31 can rest easy but now I still need to optimize a location. Maybe one of the new Derale frame coolers 24" long on the OUTSIDE of the frame under the running board apron might be away from the exhaust system and maybe I can rig some sort of external air scoop in the outside of the apron to feed air directly to that cooler. One simple idea is to cut a wedge out of the running board apron and glass a small scoop over the hole with suitable smoothing. Another possibility is to insert a panel of louvers in the running board apron with the louvers facing the front as a row of scoops. I'm still working on this problem.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Hey Don, I wanted to to let you know run a second cooler under the car and I plan on putting a fan on it. I bought the smallest fan avialable, it's a 7" Spal. I plan on keeping her real cool. **) :toocool:
Thanks Don for the info. I guess the one I am getting is the worse kind or what? The one I am putting on is the kind that looks like a small radiator basically but bigger fins. I have a feeling the guy is putting it behind the radiator which I hope he doesn't. If so then I will change it and put it in front if I have to. But I definetely am going to get a trans. temp gauge.
FMX, what you described is not the worst. Apparently the unit I showed in my picture is the worst because it tends to clog up, the tube-fin type you describe at least will flow better since the inside of the tube is a larger diameter. I work part time on Tuesday and Thursday but today I am calling around and have found that the Moroso racing type cooler is not recommended for street use, maybe because it needs high speed air flow. Now I am looking at the Derale frame mount which is only 2-pass but 24" long and now I need to get fittings to make up some stainless hoses for flex fittings. From my science background the most interesting thing is the behavior of the fluid. Some organic compounds can "lock up" like spaghetti all going in the same direction to form a one-dimensional "crystal" (nematic) while others can form a two-dimensional "crystal" (smectic) something like window screen and still flow in the other dimension.
http://liq-xtal.cwru.edu/lcdemo.htm
I guess the Ford folks got the patent on the Mercon first and maybe GM had to wait till the end of the patent (17 years) or find a similar material, but apparently the Mercon is the best stuff to lock up inside the trans-clutches and still flow, neat stuff, but I don't know the exact structural formula for the Mercon.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Well I ordered the Derale 24" side rail tube-fin cooler so that narrows down the situation but looking at the frame it is not clear yet where to put it. Actually the easiest place is back along the right rear but with an aluminum shield to separate it from the muffler area and maybe a ventilation tube from the front of the car aimed at the back area. The mount is away from the rail side by about an inch so it gets air from both sides.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Well just to keep my juices flowing I want to report that I installed the DeRale 24" side rail cooler along the passenger side rail on the outside. It will just fit in the channel under the runningboard apron which is a clear space on the BeBops body, although I looked at a restored '29 down the street and the joint where the front fender joins the apron on the underside has a wide flange for the bolts so that might not be a place for good air flow on a metal car. I had rubber hoses made up (one 15" and the other 16" long) to couple the trans cooler to the fittings on the side of the 700R4 and they wrap under the frame rail which is a bit exposed but the front 4-bar mount is at least 4" below the hoses and the hoses are in the corner of the 4-bar mount so they are pretty well protected. Still that looks marginal to me so I also installed the DeRale oil pan that C9x showed, painted it dull black and measured underneath to find only 5" clearance, but since the front axle only has about 4 1/2" clearance that should hit first. I drove around the extended area here to look for speed bumps and as far as I can tell there are none near me more than 3" high and I also measured under a new Corvette in a parking lot in a nearby Mall and found it had only about 4" clearance, so with reasonable caution I should be able to use the DeRale transmission pan on the street here.
Today I also nearly finished setting up the Gennie handbrake although in my inexperience it took several tries at putting it together in various stages and taking it apart and then putting it together again but now I think it is OK and it does lock up the rear wheels when the handle is pulled! Actually the handbrake is the first thing on the car that actually "works", so I guess that is progress of a sort. I am replying to this old thread because the other recent thread on Model A steering shows beautiful cars in progress by Henry Rifle and another by C9x. I doubt if I will ever be able to do another build but these guys are on their second, third or fourth car so they really know how to do it right. As it is thanks to C9x for all the good pictures and the suggestion of the DeRale trans pan. With the ventilated trans pan holding two extra quarts of fluid (Type-F), the marginal side trans cooler should be adequate (?) we shall see.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
I'm sure it will be fine Don, you won't be hauling that much weight to heat up the trans/converter.
Thanks Tech1, I am already thinking of a small "traveling kit" I can stash in the rumble trunk with a few wrenches, extra fan belt, extra water hose, maybe an extra fuel pump, fuel filter and some spare plugs and pack them in the stock trans pan I just took off in case I rip a hole in the DeRale trans pan. The stock pan has a nice shape and maybe it can serve as an emergency parts container as well as a spare pan if I rip up the DeRale pan miles from home, but I guess that means I would also have to have some spare trans fluid, the possibilities go on and on. I would not mention this except I did have a trans failure on I-64 in the mountains three years ago ('93 Lebaron) and had to drive along the apron at 40 mph in second gear till I could get to a service station and by that time the fluid was boiling! Anyway I know it gets hot at least 6 months a year in the Southwest, but believe me July and August can be scorchers even here in Va, just when you want to make a run to the beach, so I need to keep that trans cool. I am starting with a brand new stainless 13.6 gallon gas tank recently custom made for me by Rock Valley as a false rumble seat but in the past with a "restored" MG midget I had to change a fuel filter three times on the road (twice on an Interstate shoulder) due to a gas tank which I had cooked out at a radiator shop using a basic solution whereas I should have had the tank "pickled" in an acid bath, so anyway I have had so many "road adventures" that I think I will carry the stock trans pan with me and I might as well use it to store other spare parts. Thanks for your expert opinion.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Geeze Don, can your hot rod pull a garage? I'd just do that, that way if it rains you have cover, if it snows you have heat, if it catches fire you have nothing... hehe
FMX, good humor! I just thought the stock trans pan has a nice shape and I will be able to use it as a case for some emergency parts. I think there is some space between the rumble seat interior side panels and the rear quarter panels where I can stash some things out of sight and of course rattles are mandatory with a Ford!
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Heh. Rumbles and rattles huh? I love rumble seats.... sitting outside with your face in the wind, then SMACK. A bug hits you in the face and your teeth are black with bug guts. It was fun while it lasted! hehe
I have the luxury of a decent amount of space between my grille and my radiator, so I added a fairly large cooler in front and a pull-through fan on the back. With the radiator and the cooler painted black, not much shows through.
This is the cooler mounted. The next photo will show the fan side.
Here's the fan side. It took a lot of trimming on the shroud, but I got a good tight fit.
Dang . . . forgot the photo.
Henry/Jack, you do go first class! A '32 is bigger, roomier, better and more expensive than a '29 and a '34 is still better in all those ways. But does the trans cooler pass the heat to the engine radiator? That is why I avoided a cooler in front of an already small '29 radiator.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Don,
There obviously will be some heat transferred from the trans cooler to the radiator, but that's how it normally works on a radiator with a trans cooler tank.
Besides, my car is channelled. There is absolutely NO room underneath . . . or anywhere else.
Another topic. You mentioned earlier that your axle had less clearance than your trans pan, and it would take the first "hit" from a speed bump. The only problem with that logic is that your axle will be picked up to clear the speed bump by your tires - they're concentric, you know. I'm in a similar dilemma. I may have to change out my front tires, and maybe the rears. The profile is just too low. I only have 3" under the front axle.
Henry/Jack, Yes it looks marginal over speed bumps and some folks advised taking them diagonally but I think that makes things worse for the reason you give. After my local survey of speed bumps I visited a friend at a local hospital and found the most extreme speed bumps at that hospital parking lot, but even so they were only 3" high. I guess all I can do is go real slow and if the front axle scrapes, I'll have to stop before the trans pan hits. Of course going over a radical hump it is possible to scrape in the middle while the wheels clear the front and rear axles. C9x made a good point that with a cast aluminum trans pan it can crack while the DeRale steel pan might just deform. Since Doctors tend to have expensive cars including Corvettes, they can't make the hospital speed bumps too high!
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Don,
Going diagonal will ensure that anything that can hit, will hit.
My Corvette sits at about 4 inches. When I see a speed bump, I usually turn around.
What are your thoughts on a TCI SSF 700R4 with 2800 Stall TC and 4.10 pushing a 6200 lb 1976 GMC pick-up truck with the cooling lines going to the rad and tranny burning up in 2500 miles?Quote:
Originally Posted by blwn31
Well, first I'm not a transmission expert. But, 2800 RPM stall is steep for the street. What exactly burned up, the low/rev, 2nd or the 3/4? Also, the T.V on these transmissions are super duper important. If you don't have enough T.V under high load, up she goes. That is the major downfall of these transmissions. I personally run an in the radiator cooler and second B&M cooler on the frame rail. I am currently redoing my chassis and am in the process of adding a small Spall Fan to my B&M cooler. Haven't checked my trans temp yet but, I can always not turn the fan off if need be.
Sorry for you trans going up in smoke.
Keith