Thread: Need My Head(s) Examined

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Typo for me. I did a quick approximation and got 9.35 (not 10.35, as I typed.)

Since the only thing changing is the head volume, I did a quick approximation this way:

CR = (106.9 x 10.32)/118 = 9.35. Not perfect, but very close.

Cayne...I should be right at or a hair below 10/1. I had the heads milled to 100cc's...and I am '0' decked. John

Since these are the big boy "gofaster" heads, I'd bet a nickel they have heavy springs installed. What you want for initial break-in is stock single springs less dampers. I used to keep a worn out set on the shelf just for break-in. Do you have shop air for holding the valves in place while you remove the springs and replace them with stocker units?

Your valve adjustment procedure will result in the valves being too tight. With your socket on the crank bolt at the harmonic damper, turn the crank until the intake valve on #1 cylinder is fully depressed (valve fully open). Turn the crank one full turn to put the lifter directly on the heel of the cam lobe and loosen the nut on the intake rocker until the rocker is loose. Grasp the pushrod with your thumb and forefinger and wiggle it up and down against the lifter cup and rocker arm socket while you tighten the nut. DO THIS VERY LIGHTLY SO AS NOT TO COMPRESS THE SPRING INSIDE THE LIFTER. All you want to do is adjust the nut until the play is out of the pushrod. Now tighten the nut another 1/2 turn. Turn the crank 1/4 turn and do #8 intake, then another 1/4 turn and do #4 and so on through the firing order of 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Then go back to #1 cylinder and do the exhaust valve, then 1/4 turn and do #8, etc., etc. There are other methods to do this but this is my way and it's bulletproof. It takes a little longer, but you can be sure that it is right when you're through.

For the initial break-in, you should have everything ready to run. Ignition timing set close, carb full of fuel, full battery charge, temp gauge and oil pressure gauge hooked up, valves adjusted. If you have to grind more than 2 seconds on the starter....STOP.....and find out why it isn't cranking. Add a bottle of GM Engine Oil Supplement to the oil before fire-up. You can find it at any GM dealer. After the 20-30 minute run, drop the oil and filter and replace with fresh oil and filter and another bottle of EOS. Use a brand name racing oil instead of what you're used to using. The oil companies have begun to delete zinc and other high pressure lubes from engine oils due to pressure being brought to bear by OEM car makers. They say the zinc clogs up their catalytic converters and costs them warranty replacements. So, now it is up to us hot rodders to make sure we have the proper chemicals in our oils to protect our expensive investments.

Originally Posted by techinspector1

Do you have shop air for holding the valves in place while you remove the springs and replace them with stocker units? ...

Your valve adjustment procedure will result in the valves being too tight...

...For the initial break-in, you should have everything ready to run. Ignition timing set close, carb full of fuel, full battery charge, temp gauge and oil pressure gauge hooked up, valves adjusted. If you have to grind more than 2 seconds on the starter....STOP.....and find out why it isn't cranking. ...

...it is up to us hot rodders to make sure we have the proper chemicals in our oils to protect our expensive investments.

Richard, Thanks for the info. I've been busy the last few days with domestic priorities
1. I do not have shop air. Is there any way to tell what kind of springs I currently have? I think (have to check again) that I have an inner and an outer spring on each valve....?
2. I will re-adjust the valves once I settle the issue with the springs.
3. How would I get the timing "close" without firing it?
4. You saying my engine ought to start within two seconds of hitting the key? Sounds optimistic but I'll go with that.
5. What type of oil would you recommend? Can I run normal oil after the break-in period?
I appreciate all your help. It pays to get input from others who have already been down this road several times. Einstein called it "standing on the shoulders of giants"...

O.K., here's what I would do if I were in your position. We're gonna kill a couple of birds with one stone. Get a piston stop either from www.summitracing.com like this http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
or maybe there is a speed shop locally in OKC that would have one on the shelf. The better ones, like this Crane unit, have a hole drilled through the tickler rod that lets air escape while you are turning the crank. You'll also want to measure the diameter of the outer ring on the harmonic damper and order a timing tape http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...0+115&x=34&y=6
What we are going to do is find exact top dead center on #1 cylinder so that you will not have any timing issues down the road. These come with instructions, but if you don't understand, ask here. We will make sure that the top dead center mark on your harmonic damper ring and the coinciding mark on your timing tab are at the right place to time the motor with a light. Sometimes, the rubber disintegrates between the inner hub and the outer ring and the ring slips, resulting in an erroneous mark for top dead center at #1. What we're going to do is remove all the spark plugs to make the motor easy to turn over. Use a solvent to clean all the dirt and grease off the surface of the harmonic damper outer ring. Now, affix a piece of masking tape 4 to 5 inches long to the ring, with the middle of the tape approximately at the TDC groove in the ring. Turn the motor over by hand with a socket on the damper retaining bolt and using a long cheater bar to make it easy. Turn the motor clockwise until the TDC groove in the damper ring is maybe 1 1/2 to 2 inches to the right of your timing pointer. (The piston has passed TDC and is headed down the bore on its intake stroke). Screw the outer part of your piston stop device into the spark plug hole and snug it down so it won't move. Now, thread the inner rod into the outer part until the rod just comes into contact with the piston crown. Make a mark with a Sharpie on the masking tape where the timing cover pointer is pointing. Now, turn the crank clockwise until the piston is coming back up and comes into contact with the inner piston stop rod again. Make another mark on the masking tape at the timing cover pointer. Now, divide this distance in half with a compass divider or measure it with your 6" dial caliper and you have exact TDC halfway between the two Sharpie marks. If TDC does happen to coincide with the groove in the damper ring, it is by the sheerest of coincidences and you should go out immediately and buy a lottery ticket. The halfway mark is where you will affix your timing tape top dead center mark. Now, if the true mark is too far off from the groove that was supposed to be TDC, then the outer ring has slipped in relation to the inner hub. You can time the motor properly now that you have found TDC, but be warned that the ring will probably continue to slip and at some point in the future, you will have to justify TDC again with the piston stop. The alternative is to have your damper rebuilt by these guys. They will make it like new for you for something like 50 bucks. They take it apart and press new elastomeric material between the hub and ring. www.damperdoctor.com

Now, see this thread and get yourself one of the spring compressors like Denny has shown in post #5 and post #12 (part number KD2078)
http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27043

You've got TDC marked on the damper ring, so bring the piston to TDC on the compression stroke. Choose a valve and give the retainer a little rap with a small hammer like Denny shows in the thread. Attach the spring compressor to either intake or exhaust valve and release the tension against the keepers so you can remove them with either a magnet or needle nose pliers. Once the keepers are out, the rest of the spring and retainer will come apart easily. The valve will drop, but it can only go a far as the piston crown and will still have enough of the valve stem sticking out of the guide to grab onto for reassembly. Now, if you don't have snap gauges in your tool collection, make 2 length checkers from short pieces of clothes hanger wire or welding rod. You will have a friend assemble and hold together the retainer and keepers on the valve stem without the springs while you use the short pieces of wire to make them the proper length to show you the installed height of the outer and inner springs. If the outer spring just has a flat, spiral wound damper spring pressed inside it and there is no additional round wire third spring, then you will only need to find the installed height of the outer spring. Just keep cutting or grinding on the end of the wire until you can insert it straight up between the spring seat in the head and the bottom of the retainer where the other end of the spring rests. The retainer is stepped, so make sure which step you are measuring, the step for the outer (big) spring or for a smaller diameter inner spring. Now, take the spring(s) outer, inner, damper and all to the nearest automotive machine shop or speed shop and have them test the pressure for you. Take the wire(s) and cam card with you so he can measure the installed height by the wire(s), then the valve open dimension can be figured from the cam card that came with the cam. Once you know the pressures involved, call the cam grinder and ask them if you can break the cam in with these springs in place. If they tell you it is ok, then great, you have only had to remove and re-install one spring. If they say no, then you will have to change all of the springs to stocker type outers only, then break in the cam, then change all the springs back. Make sure the cam grinder puts his blessing on the springs for use after the cam is broken in.

Yeah, I know this sound like a lot of work, but if you take a few precautions like this, the job will be done right and it won't cost you too much money to do it right. If the springs are too stiff and you don't check them and you wipe out the cam and lifters on startup, then you still have to do all this plus a new cam and lifters plus you have to tear the motor down and clean the shrapnel out of it before you install your new.....and expensive.....cam and lifters. CHOICES, CHOICES.

I hope I have better luck removing the valve springs than the guy in the other post
It will be a bit before I get to this Richard but I totally understand what you are saying so far. Thanks for the tool suggestions. I am always looking for excuses to buy more tools
I would say that this will take a few days as my car is on jacks (borrowed) and I need to finish some under-car work so I can remove/return jack stands, jack, engine hoist, etc... (It helps to borrow instead of buy when you have a small garage..). My wife is also hinting that she wants her side of the garage back seeing as how the weather is turning colder...Soon as I get that squared away I will pull a set of springs and report back with my findings.
BTW: what kind of findings am I looking for? Just seat pressure and full lift pressure?

OK, that is pretty much what I wanted to say. Go back and read the whole mess please.

To get the timing close, you will put #1 on about 10 to 12 degrees before TDC on the compression stroke (both valves closed). This should be easy to do with your timing tape installed on the damper ring. Now, take the cap off the distributor and make certain that the rotor is pointing to the terminal which feeds #1 plug wire. If it isn't, then either change the wires around to make it happen or remove the distributor and turn the distributor drive shaft with a long, large screwdriver until you can turn the rotor shaft in the distributor to make the rotor align with the #1 wire.

As far as oil, use the best racing oil you can find and add a bottle of Engine Oil Supplement, found at any GM parts department counter. It contains additional extreme pressure lubricants to protect the cam/lifter interface. Fire the motor and bring the r's up to no less than 2,500 for 20 minutes. The cam is fed lube by the splash method and as there is very little splash at lower rpm's, the r's must be up to lube it and the lifter faces. After the break-in, drop the oil and filter. Replace with fresh filter and oil and another bottle of EOS. Do some on the road driving, alternating between moderate power and letting the motor de-accelerate in gear, giving it a chance to oil up real well and carry away some heat from the rings and cylinder walls for the next 500 or so miles.

Well, hey, you've torched my brain, but if there is anything else, just ask. If I don't know, someone else on the board will know. We've got a lot of sharp people on here.

One last thing, I recommended the pieces of wire to check installed height. This was assuming that you don't have a set of snap gauges. If you have snap gauges, use 'em. This is the same set that I have in my toolbox.....http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/cen6554.html

Originally Posted by techinspector1

bumpbumpbump

OK, that is pretty much what I wanted to say. Go back and read the whole mess please.

To get the timing close, you will put #1 on about 10 to 12 degrees before TDC on the compression stroke (both valves closed). This should be easy to do with your timing tape installed on the damper ring. Now, take the cap off the distributor and make certain that the rotor is pointing to the terminal which feeds #1 plug wire. If it isn't, then either change the wires around to make it happen or remove the distributor and turn the distributor drive shaft with a long, large screwdriver until you can turn the rotor shaft in the distributor to make the rotor align with the #1 wire.

As far as oil, use the best racing oil you can find and add a bottle of Engine Oil Supplement, found at any GM parts department counter. It contains additional extreme pressure lubricants to protect the cam/lifter interface. Fire the motor and bring the r's up to no less than 2,500 for 20 minutes. The cam is fed lube by the splash method and as there is very little splash at lower rpm's, the r's must be up to lube it and the lifter faces. After the break-in, drop the oil and filter. Replace with fresh filter and oil and another bottle of EOS. Do some on the road driving, alternating between moderate power and letting the motor de-accelerate in gear, giving it a chance to oil up real well and carry away some heat from the rings and cylinder walls.

Well, hey, you've torched my brain, but if there is anything else, just ask. If I don't know, someone else on the board will know. We've got a lot of sharp people on here.

One last thing, I recommended the pieces of wire to check installed height. This was assuming that you don't have a set of snap gauges. If you have snap gauges, use 'em.

Richard,is there any other additive that you know of that is as good as GM'S EOS?
I have had people ask me and I keep going back to it.

I don't know Erik. It's all I have used for the past several decades. CompCams has this out...http://www.compcams.com/technical/Ca...106-07/234.pdf and Crane has this.....99003-1....http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...s&lvl=2&prt=15
but I've never used either of them. I suspect that they would do as good of a job as EOS, but just never have tried them.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Denny, that gives us 2 products that we can count on.....

Hi Richard, yes it has taken this long to get around to pulling a valve spring.

Went out last night and ran into a problem with my distributor which has been resolved. Also threw in an oil primer tool and turned the pump. Happy to say that all of my pushrods were oozing oil in no time at all. Some of which oozed all over my nice clean engine...

Anyhow, tried pull a valve spring with the tool shown in the other thread (see about 7 posts back, this thread) and it looks like I am having the same problem as that guy. I have an inner and outer spring with a damper in the between and my tool will only grab the outer spring and the damper. I could not unseat the retainers (keepers?). However I now could push down on the valve and compress the inner spring by hand. Could not push very far (either I ran out of strength or it was hitting the piston which is ad TDC). Knowing this, any off-the-cuff advice on knocking it loose, modifying my spring tool, etc?

I assume the guy in the other thread yanked his heads off to get the job done, he never returned to finish his story. I do not want to do that.

i use a spring compressor like on page 46 in the comp book they may have it on line www.competitionproducts.com #7080 i have put new roller springs 1.625 id that have 250lbs on the seat. on engines with this type. you need to un lock the keeper locks. they wedge in the spring retainers you want to give them a good hit off the side abit on the top with a rubber mallet to help un lock them

Originally Posted by DennyW

Yes, I use that one also. Wrapped the handle with a little padding, and black tape, for those hold it for a minute times.

All that compressor did was piss me off It bent the first few times of use.

i have two of them one like stock and one i rework for hi intakes like a blowers never bent the two i have and the spring s i have put on with them have not been wimpy springs stock springs .like i said 250 lbs at seat and past 500lbs + open you must have a cheapy one

I dont know how to use that one (nor do I own one), I have the kind that you screw down over the spring. I went back again and rapped a few times on the retainer and tried again and this time the keepers came loose. I just needed to enlist a second pair of hands to pull out the keepers while I compressed the inner spring by hand (pushing down on the valve spring compressor). Success!!

So today I am bringing the springs, hardware, seat height, and cam card to my machinist to find out how stiff they are. Hopefully they will be acceptable enough for my cam. A big lesson learned....

Hey here is another lesson....always make sure your machinist tightened up the lifter oil galley plugs before you install your transmission!!!
I primed the motor two days ago and found a big puddle of oil under the car the next day. Crawled underneath and the rear main seal area looks dry (whew!)...inspected a little further and it appears to be squirting out onto the flywheel on the passenger side. btw: when I ran the primer, my gauge went right up to 60psi so it is not a gaping hole. I am assuming that it is a case of a finger tightened plug....we'll see.

So if anyone knows an easier way to tighten those plugs without pulling the tranny back, please speak up!....still gonna try and start it this weekend pending the this leak and my springs. Serious PITA and frustrating but hey...that's hotrodding...if it was easy, everybody would do it.