Thread: Torque

Tweet

Ok, I will start over from scratch, right now on hand, I have the 454 block bored .060, the 427 heads, the dished pistons, crank, rods, and an edelbrock 600cfm carb. Planning on selling or trading the carb for a q-jet, we've established I need different pistons, and a weiland stealth intake.

This will be going in a '67 C-20 with a TH-400 and 411gears, tall tires, but unsure of the height. The previous motor was a 350 bored .030 with edelbrock performer intake, carb(thats where the 600cfm carb from above came from) an edelbrock performer rpm cam. I do not know the specs off the top of my head, and no idea what the torque converter was. With the previous setup this truck was driveable on the street, though when the petal hit the floor from a stop it didn't jump to action like i hoped. It did however run high 15's-low 16's on the track.

With this 454 I hope to have that snap when the petal goes down, I will cruise occasionaly with this truck, it will do a little work for me (hauling and towing) but will be rare, this is mostly my toy, it doesnt need to have perfect street manners, but I don't want to have to start it back up at every stop light. I would like to improve on my 1/4mile time. So I'm scratching off my previous list of parts to get and open to suggestions to build around what i want, not what I think needs to go on the motor. Sorry for being such a pain guys, but I'd rather get this right the first time then have to rebuild later when I know a bit more about building from scratch...Really do appreciate all the help

Sounds like you have a solid plan going now ,I see no problem with the q jet ,they can be tuned to handle a wide range of engine combos and your buddy will help ya on that so no problem there..........Once you get all that in one place and do some number crunching that should tell you what cams you can run and then choose one based on your goal.

The roller cam will definatly help with the off idle response,you will feel it as soon as you mash the gas.......as long as you dont get carried away on the cam.
Sounds like you have made a good choice....decking the block a huge amount make other issues pop up later ,such as push rods,intake fitment etc...you dont want to get too wild on the shaving the heads/decking the block ,unless you really know what you are doing and than everything has to be checked and custom fit.

By the time you decked the block shaved the heads ,odered speacial pushrods,bought checking tools and possibly ended up shaving the manifold to make it fit ,you would be way past the cost of the new pistons.

Now you have a set of pistons to sell to help offset some of your cost....soo it`s not all bad....much better than building a engine that does not do what you want or worse pings and detonates.

This way you will have a good running engine that does what you want the first time.....nothing worse than having to deal with a subpar engine after all your hard work and money.

Keep us posted on your progress and keep asking questions when unshure of anything!!!!!!!

Thanks for all the help, taking a wing at it here... how would a fella go about checking deck height? My best guess would be to install the crank and a piston, set to TDC and measure from piston to deck...might be able to spare some time this weekend to get the deck height established, and possibly cc the heads (just sent chevy an email asking but not sure what to expect in the response)

Here is a good article that talks about calculating deck height and compression ratio...ignore the fact that they use a 460 ,the formula is the same for any engine ,only the measurements change.

This will tell what it should be if the block has not been decked ,installing a piston will tell you if the block has been decked and how much.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/i...ion_Ratio.html


You can also just install a piston.... and check as you described with a dial guage or feeler guage.

Im against the grain here and maybe will catch some flack. I dont in any way think rollers are not great and Pat is someone I highly respect in every way. But....

I have used hyraulic and solid falt tappet cams with no problems in quite in quite a few motors..in fact every car, truck or V twin motorcycle I have ever owned. I dont see a probelm with using one especially for a budget minded street motor looking for low and mid range power. Yes todays oil is garbage but if motor is built correct, all oil passages and sure to be clean, cam and lifters are inspected by a machine shop under a magnifying glass for any possible imperfections, GM EOS with the thick hihg concentrated Zinc cam lube (not the garbage red stuff from comp cams) is used, plenty of intial timing, a primed oiling system, a primed carb, a box fab for cooling and close to perfect vavle adjustment all before start up..no reason a flat tappet cam cant be used today. My Suburban Dail driver had 260K with hydraulic flat tappet, my small block equiped Chevelle as well. My BB I had as well as the one Im building using a solid flat tappet. Did a 427 with solid flat tappet 2 years ago with 276/284, 243/251 @ .050, .600/.600 lift on 110 LSA. Same cam by lunati has gone over 100,00o miles in other cars I personally know of using todays oil..key is just propper break in. I say if budget is a priority do your research and use the flat tappet for a street motor that doesnt spin high. If you would like some material on how to break in flat tappet cam on todays oil send me a PM of email and I can refer you. Of course all JMO.

Originally Posted by 30-A Rider

Im against the grain here and maybe will catch some flack. I dont in any way think rollers are not great and Pat is someone I highly respect in every way. But....

I have used hyraulic and solid falt tappet cams with no problems in quite in quite a few motors..in fact every car, truck or V twin motorcycle I have ever owned. I dont see a probelm with using one especially for a budget minded street motor looking for low and mid range power. Yes todays oil is garbage but if motor is built correct, all oil passages and sure to be clean, cam and lifters are inspected by a machine shop under a magnifying glass for any possible imperfections, GM EOS with the thick hihg concentrated Zinc cam lube (not the garbage red stuff from comp cams) is used, plenty of intial timing, a primed oiling system, a primed carb, a box fab for cooling and close to perfect vavle adjustment all before start up..no reason a flat tappet cam cant be used today. My Suburban Dail driver had 260K with hydraulic flat tappet, my small block equiped Chevelle as well. My BB I had as well as the one Im building using a solid flat tappet. Did a 427 with solid flat tappet 2 years ago with 276/284, 243/251 @ .050, .600/.600 lift on 110 LSA. Same cam by lunati has gone over 100,00o miles in other cars I personally know of using todays oil..key is just propper break in. I say if budget is a priority do your research and use the flat tappet for a street motor that doesnt spin high. If you would like some material on how to break in flat tappet cam on todays oil send me a PM of email and I can refer you. Of course all JMO.

well ok that is fine with me i only care about the ones i build but i did give him two numbers of HYD flat lifter cams ? i told him of a $40 roller cam that would be cheap and work good as well . i did not think i beat my drum i only use roller cams in bbc that loud here?? have seen more bbc eat cams then some guys build on here in a life time . as a full time engine builder . i build what will work and not come back .i do not worry if the cam was broke in right or piss around with old worn out springs or take out the inners springs .that just bull$hit.. time is money.. then the cam still could wipe .i would say if you were trying to make a income in machining and building engines .you would do more thinking on this maybe not? i still build flat lifter cam engines BUT not bbc if dead bone stock ? i do not build any of them. and if so i would push a roller cam up grade.as for break in use joe gibbs or brad penstate is what i use. the flat lifter cams i do put in .i tell the customers that they can wipe .if not broke in rigth and are STOCK RV OR MILD .i am not buying a rebuild for someone that did not take the time to even get it on number 1 to fire it and crank it till dead

I see i have sparked a bit of a cam debate...this is good for me, i can learn from this...

and i have broke in a cam before, a flat edelbrock performer rpm on a 350

I am trying to keep this engine in my affordability range, but do plan to upgrade as time goes, I want this slipped between the fenders as soon as its ready, thats why i need to stick to low price parts, dont wory though im not going to slap it together forgetting bearings or something, just in a hurry to get the build under way, will take my time with assembly... eventually want roller rockers and cam(if not now) but im tired of this block sitting on my back porch collecting dust and ready to hear it rumble

Originally Posted by co68956

I see i have sparked a bit of a cam debate...this is good for me, i can learn from this...

and i have broke in a cam before, a flat edelbrock performer rpm on a 350

I am trying to keep this engine in my affordability range, but do plan to upgrade as time goes, I want this slipped between the fenders as soon as its ready, thats why i need to stick to low price parts, dont wory though im not going to slap it together forgetting bearings or something, just in a hurry to get the build under way, will take my time with assembly... eventually want roller rockers and cam(if not now) but im tired of this block sitting on my back porch collecting dust and ready to hear it rumble

well there no DEBATE i am pro engine builder and machine and build engines every day till they throw dirt on me i build them the way that i know works for me first thing is you do not need roller rockers . to use a roller cam . roller cam $40. lifters retros are $389 but have seen them on e bay for less in . you need a chain set for a mark 5/6 stock is fine .and a set of reros push rods $40 front cam plate less then $20 you may of needed new push rod s or timing set any ways so your looking at $130 for a cheap cam and lifters? so your looking at $300 less .you know i have a good set of hyd roller lifters i may part with .all i can tell you is i recam two engines this summer that wipe flat cams out of one lost two and the other was working thru number two .i did not build them the first time but did the last time with roller cams .but like i said i gave you two numbers of flat lifter hyd cams .do what you want

i appreciate being given options rather than instructions, and had no idea i could swap to roller cam for so cheap, will hit the local junk yard in search of the parts you listed to make the swap, and would be interested in the lifters but can look around for them too...

i understand roller lifters are not a needed part to get this up and going, but from my understanding roller lifters=less friction, less friction=more efficent power, they can be made a down the road upgrade

where abouts should I be shooting for a compression ratio with the roller cam you listed, also if i decide to veer away from the specs towards a closer LSA say 112, i understand the engine will idle a bit rougher, but shouldn't be too bad for the street, and this would move my power lower in the rpms? I noticed with the specs you were keeping a low duration, if i cant find one with the 112lsa with that exact duration should i go a bit shorter or longer...im trying to not veer off too much from the specs you gave me, because i know they are a bit more educated than what i would come up with... i want a noticable idle but understand that the rougher the idle the worse the low end torque, trying to get a happy medium

well your not going to find the roller cam numbers i gave you in a junk yard the cam is a new marine take out
you can get every thing i listed off E bay ? or competition products . the cam plate i think is the same as a sbc never check it but your block is drilled for the plate less its a older 396/402 427.on that plate you would need to check this with a GM parts book that is the only thing your going to find at the bone yard the lsa and the duration play in the rpm .the more cam over lap the more CR you will need to make it work . your looking for max tq low rpm them cams will work with a low CR

ok thanks, the block is a '92 454 4bolt main

if you go with the step nose gen 5/6 roller cam it will fit. you have a gen 5 block one pc rear main seal . i am building one now to a blown 489 cnc dart heads custom ersons /mcc solid roller grind . just deck the block with BHJ tru deck and bored and deck plate hone it . it would be wise to get your block deck plate hone if you are boring yours the open deck moves abit more then the older mark 4 bbc blocks. when this engine was a 454 i recam it did some valve train upgrades .i built over 8 years ago was a 454 HO crate engine after it lost a cam .i went to a schneider hyd roller cam and retro lifters . but now he want more

I would do whatever it took to save/make 300 extra dollars than have to worry about the cam going bad during breakin again ,much less if it actually did go bad ,the worry was bad enuff.
It`s stressfull enuff firing a new engine when you dont do it all the time and then thinking about the cam going bad ,checkin the oil for metal ,looking over the rockers making shure they are all still rockin.........it was stressful,2 to 3 thousand rpms right off the bat for 20 minutes,making shure oil pressure stayed up ,making shure coolant temp stayed down.
I will only use roller cams from now on,it`s nice to fire it up and let it idle as you look it over and listen for problems and look for leaks.I know what I went thru getting it all primed up and ready to fire so it did not crank over forever.
Then I made the mistake of watching first engine starts on youtube with roller cams Fire it up ,let it idle, calmly walk around and look at the engine............I was like, that was not what I went thru at all..........
Thats my 2 cents,well more like 520 cents........

There is nothing wrong with a flat tappet ,you just take the gamble of it failing and having to rebuild it again ,not worth 300 or even 500 dollars to have to chance a scenario like that. The engine I built has a flat tappet ,but never again,plus the ramps on the cam dont hold a candle to a roller cams lift rate ,the rollers make more off idle torque and have better response because of those ramps.

It`s your engine ,you just have to decide what your willing to chance and spend.

Pat, call me dumb, but i don't know what deck plate hone is...could you please explain, this motor was bored .060 before i bought it, is there any signs to tell if it has been deck plate honed?

shawnlee, i wasn't all that worried on breakin of my last flat tappet break in, didn't even have the valve lash adjusted properly before fire up...boy what a pain that was, adjusting lash and a new carb and timing all while trying to keep the engine at 2000, at that time i knew a cam opened and closed valves but that was it, i made my cam decision based on the name not the specs, it ran well but the power was a bit higher in the rpm range then i wanted, now i have something to look back on and say to myself take your time and do it right, we live and we learn...

another question, i have been considering stroking to 496, but this would be extra $ i may not need to spend, if the crank i have it good i will re-use it, if its bad and i need a new one anyways, is it justifyable to get a larger stroke in it?

well you started your post with one word TORQUE and a 496 will give you that they can be built with cast steel cranks and hyper pistons with a stock size rod i built many .if you pick up a block thats now 060 over is about as far as i would ever go on one of them gen 5 blocks . is it used at 060.over was it set up for cast pistons or forged pistons? i hone blocks for the pistons so you need to know what size the bores are now you can not use a hyper piston in a block thats been open up for a race forged pistons they can bang a round in the bores. a deck plate pulls on the bore .is will get the bore closer to what it would be with the heads on the block with head bolts or studs .so when done .you will have a round bore .here is one with a alum deck plate getting hone to 4.625 bore 638 cid