Thread: Harmonic balancer on 454 has 4 timing marks.....

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Originally Posted by repoman3809

Found several pics I took of the motor before the install. I was able to zoom in and cut the pictures to show the balancer marks. After finding the pics, it's obvious the "other three lines" arent factory to the balancer. From my prospective with the motor installed in the boat. The lines looked straight and factory. The attached pic, shows a different story(pic 1).

Since I know the installer set TDC to the long line and the motor seems to not be 180 out, I guess I need to put a timing light on it(or set to ear, considering Pat's comments).

I also realize I need to find a way to make sure TDC is TDC. I'll figure something out.

Also looking at internet pics of other factory balancers(which this one appears to be). I noticed the long timing mark appears to match most other pictures found. The mark is in the same spot, relative to the four holes in the side of balancer(pic 2). So likely timing marks not slipping, due to bad balancer.

So seems the motor is to far out of time or the 850 is just to big.

Though on initial startup the cam was big enough to draw water back into the motor. I had to change exhaust to "thur hall". The cam overlap sucked water back into motor, because factory exhaust was routed into the water, though outdrive. New exhaust exits rear of boat into air and corrected that problem. So with such a cam and considering boats typically run higher RPM's. The carb such be right on.

Guess maybe a leak at the base of carb should be considered also.

Know more tomorrow evening, as I will be messing with it. Thanks again guys. I know this isnt really a boat forum. I appreciate the advise anyways!

yep i know all about the EX running threw the prop . many time s the flap valves would come apart .many times you would see parts of them when you did a stren drive R&R look like the heel of a shoe... we did not see it ....more to the point did not want that job on some boats and was a winter job. it was not fun .but did not rate as hi on the list as a gimbal housing that bolt threw the transom i did drink abit back then. some of the work really did suck . that job was not much fun

Well here's the update, and not good. Fiddled with the motor all day. Made sure was TDC on compression stroke, made sure button was on one. Made sure all wires followed the proper firing order. It was all good. Also new gaskets for carb(yes gasket(s), it's got an adapter plate).

Motor still only started by matting the throttle(or pumping 20 times). I advanced the timing by ear, till motor sounded best. At this point motor started a lot easier. Typically one or two pumps on throttle(sometimes none). While it started easier and with less fuel, it definitely was fighting itself. The motor would crank slower and almost stop, right before it started(i assume combustion was premature pushing piston back down). But it was starting.

I had to put a timing light on at this point. Turns out I was way off timing tab and I'd guess roughly 32-34 degrees BTDC at idle. Tried moving back to end of timing tab(16 degrees). Motor idle would drop off and motor would stall or be on verge of. The start up was back to matting throttle or pumping twenty times, at 16 degrees BTDC.

Checked fuel pressure again(just after fuel pump). Pressure still 5-1/2 psi. Advanced timing and restarted, checked vacuum. Read about 13 inches and was pretty steady(maybe inch either way periodically). This reading was with the ridiculous base timing(32-34BTDC). Obviously as I retarded advance RPM and vacuum dropped. Best I could get was crappy rough idle around 900, with 8 inches of vacuum. Vacuum reading was consistent with lumpy idle(if idle when up, so did vacuum. if idle when down so did vacuum).

Finally smartened up and got out the compression tester. Tested 2-4-6: roughly 110psi to 120psi(low but enough. But for big cam too low, right?). Regardless, #8 was around 65psi(checked it 3 times, along with gauge/S.P. hole connection). NOT GOOD!

At this point I was tired, sweaty and ticked. I packed up and went home. Leaving the rest of the cylinders untested and didn't bother shooting a little oil down #8.

Worst part I've had the motor for some time. I doubt the shop I bought it from will give me a break(gonna try though). Should have done a test right there in the shop.

Lesson learned, regardless of outcome! To anyone as dumb as me(hope none). Do a compression test before you buy. It doesn't matter who your buying from either(I bought from reputable marine shop). Put a starter on it, jumper cables, jumper wire and good battery. Or just test it by hand. Just find a way to do it. Don't be a dummy like me!

Again, I appreciate the help!

I'll keep ya posted when I get around to testing the rest(as well as leakdown). I may need some time though. Right now I feel like filling each cylinder with small screws and firing her up.

I went back and re-read your initial post on this thread. As I understand, you bought a used, complete 454 from a 'reputable marine dealer'. If he is indeed reputable, we would have to assume that he knew some history of that engine, and that he had heard it run, if not even run it in the PO's boat before it was pulled. Bottom line, it would be reasonable to assume that it ran fine when he sold it to you.

You then decided to "upgrade" to a larger, but rebuilt 850cfm carb to replace the 650 that it had. Since then you've had problems with hard starts and rough idle. Instead of going into the guts of that engine isn't it logical that your problems lie with that replacement carb? Was it a factory rebuilt unit, essentially new in the box or did you get it from someone who "rebuilt" it, or maybe you rebuilt it yourself? Regardless, I think that it's a pretty good bet that you've got a carburetor problem, but now you're chasing changes on multiple fronts so it's going to be harder to sort out all of the gremlins. If it were mine I think I would reset the timing as close to where it was when you started (hopefully you put a reference mark on it before moving the distributor?), drop the 650 carb back in place, be sure you have good, clean gas (no fuel filter plugged, no water, not stale) and see what it does that way. You may just have one weak cylinder, and it may run OK, but not optimally if you run the gremlins out of there.

Good luck with it. Boats have their own set of issues that a lot of us have not dealt with.

maybe its time you check the cam timing --------------
draws water back thru exhaust-------

Originally Posted by rspears

I went back and re-read your initial post on this thread. As I understand, you bought a used, complete 454 from a 'reputable marine dealer'. If he is indeed reputable, we would have to assume that he knew some history of that engine, and that he had heard it run, if not even run it in the PO's boat before it was pulled. Bottom line, it would be reasonable to assume that it ran fine when he sold it to you.

You then decided to "upgrade" to a larger, but rebuilt 850cfm carb to replace the 650 that it had. Since then you've had problems with hard starts and rough idle. Instead of going into the guts of that engine isn't it logical that your problems lie with that replacement carb? Was it a factory rebuilt unit, essentially new in the box or did you get it from someone who "rebuilt" it, or maybe you rebuilt it yourself? Regardless, I think that it's a pretty good bet that you've got a carburetor problem, but now you're chasing changes on multiple fronts so it's going to be harder to sort out all of the gremlins. If it were mine I think I would reset the timing as close to where it was when you started (hopefully you put a reference mark on it before moving the distributor?), drop the 650 carb back in place, be sure you have good, clean gas (no fuel filter plugged, no water, not stale) and see what it does that way. You may just have one weak cylinder, and it may run OK, but not optimally if you run the gremlins out of there.

Good luck with it. Boats have their own set of issues that a lot of us have not dealt with.

put new water fuel separator on it . go to the tank and put a new check valve in line .was called a no syphon valve .they can get junk in them or rot out .make sure oil is not fuel loaded . put older carb on it or find one running right . reset timing . try it something is not right here you say the guy screw you on the engine but he is a.... reputable dealer .... there must be more to the story like they want to much money to put engine in .you had some else put it in ?warranty void? if that not it why not ask them what they sold you ? cam can not be real nasty it idle as the drive will not shift right less you have a two drive on it ? the bravo drive may take a hi idle speed but they could in time be hard on the shift spool.dog drive . two drive has a trans and seem to take it

Quote Originally Posted by rspears View Post
I went back and re-read your initial post on this thread. As I understand, you bought a used, complete 454 from a 'reputable marine dealer'. If he is indeed reputable, we would have to assume that he knew some history of that engine, and that he had heard it run, if not even run it in the PO's boat before it was pulled. Bottom line, it would be reasonable to assume that it ran fine when he sold it to you.

Dealer installed motor and serviced before PO decided to upgrade to 502. As I said I, assumed the same.

Quote Originally Posted by rspears View Post
You then decided to "upgrade" to a larger, but rebuilt 850cfm carb to replace the 650 that it had. Since then you've had problems with hard starts and rough idle.

It had these problems from the get-go. The dealer advised me to move up to the 850. He says they run nothing less on their marine 454's. I assumed the new carb would fix the hard starting problem. Seems logical considering I have good FP and still have to mat the throttle to start.

I think your on point in regards to the gremlins. I'm still thinking though, with that much difference in cylinder compression. A leakdown test almost has to be first in line. Right?

even with one dead hole it should start and run---check your cranking manifold vacume---

also maybe try using some starting fluid--that will help prove it is or isn't a cranking fuel supply problem

you said that the engine was installed by the dealer then the original owner decided to upgrade to 502---does that mean that this engine was then removed from the boat and you purchased it and installed it in yours???????if this is so, I would bet that 99% of the people on here would then agree that something was seriously wrong with the rebuild--------I'm betting cam out of time to crank and/or wiped out lobes/lifters( would help explain the poor compression on #8?)

That's correct Jerry. Engine installed in first owners boat. Then removed in favor of the 502. I purchased and then installed. The boat was in dry dock at the time. I don't have a trailer. The dealer does not offer mobile service, so I couldn't have him install. I removed original engine, I marked everything, even took pictures. The engine bay on the boat is huge, so installing wasn't a problem. I had a gentleman who works for a local mechanic help with the install and setup.

BTW Original 454 had spun bearings, block was to far out to line bore. Machine said it could technically be done(think he said "shimmed or welded"), but not good idea for boat.

I did have several other options form the dealer. He had two more 454's that were stock. The purchased engine was the cheapest. The stock motors had lower hours and well are probably in higher demand(esp with fuel consumption considerations. my tank holds 105 gallons). Also it's likely the previous owner didnt baby the engine. Especially if he wanted more.

The motor was fresh out of the other boat. It was shrink wrapped on a skid. It was basically ready, just needed carb, dist. and installed. I did replace water pump.

I did also run the cranking vacuum test the other day. I forgot to mention it. It not something I've ever had to do before, but seemed simple. Unplug dist. make sure throttle plate closed. "T" into base of carb. I got nothing on the test.

Also I did use starting fluid. But with the ventilation problems in boat I decided not to use again(the smell lingered for quite some time, even with the blower on). I don't recall the boat starting with it.

I'm hoping it is cam/crank out of time. I really need to test the rest of the cylinders. I did 2-4-6 and when I seen 8's numbers. I called it quits for the day. It was a rough, long day and I was fed up.

Again, once started and major advance added. Motor did well. Response was good revved nice, sounded good. I didnt rev high, maybe 2500. Timing didnt advance much either at that RPM.

Pat
The oil is likely got some fuel in it. When I did the compression test two of the four new plugs had fuel on em. Oddly other two didnt. My only guess was the Weiland high rise intake wasnt spreading fuel evenly. Maybe someone else has another reason, I'm not aware of.

Water fuel separator is new. Guess I probably need to get check valve.
Outdrive is Volvo duo prop.

I had no warranty. The price range I was in, really isnt one where you can get warranty's. It was this dealer or take a crack at one on Craigslist. Figured my odds where better with this dealer. Maybe I should have just held off, saved and had one built. Hindsight is always 20/20.

my last year at the boat yard. i made new boats ready for customers and rigging them . they had me in one shop. i had my own customers that we would go to the girls and write up a work order so i could fix there boat if any thing did pop up . to have a carb out of adjustment .along with bent excell pump arms.was nothing new . if the guys building the boats were not happy they could make life hard .one trick they liked to do was drill very small holes in the boat hulls. a hair above the water line or they drilled a small hole under the stinger . a 38 foot cabin cruiser come to mind . they would also play with the wiring .boats......fun ..fun ..fun

Originally Posted by repoman3809

That's correct Jerry. Engine installed in first owners boat. Then removed in favor of the 502. I purchased and then installed. The boat was in dry dock at the time. I don't have a trailer. The dealer does not offer mobile service, so I couldn't have him install. I removed original engine, I marked everything, even took pictures. The engine bay on the boat is huge, so installing wasn't a problem. BTW Original 454 had spun bearings, block was to far out to line bore. Machine said it could technically be done(think he said "shimmed or welded"), but not good idea for boat.

I did have several other options form the dealer. He had two more 454's that were stock. The purchased engine was the cheapest. The stock motors had lower hours and well are probably in higher demand. Also it's likely the previous owner beat the engine. Especially if he wanted more.

The motor was fresh out of the other boat. It was shrink wrapped on a skid. It was basically ready, just needed carb, dist. and installed. I did replace water pump.

I did also run the cranking vacuum test the other day. I forgot to mention it. It not something I've ever had to do before, but seemed simple. Unplug dist. make sure throttle plate closed. "T" into base of carb. I got nothing on the test.

Also I did use starting fluid. But with the ventilation problems in boat I decided not to use again(the smell lingered for quite some time, even with the blower on). I don't recall the boat starting with it.

I'm hoping it is cam/crank out of time. I really need to test the rest of the cylinders. I did 2-4-6 and when I seen 8's numbers. I called it quits for the day. It was a rough, long day and I was fed up.

Again, once started and major advance added. Motor did well. Response was good revved nice, sounded good. I didnt rev high, maybe 2500. Timing didnt advance much either at that RPM.

Pat
The oil is likely got some fuel in it. When I did the compression test two of the four new plugs had fuel on em. Oddly other two didnt. My only guess was the Weiland high rise wasnt spreading fuel evenly. Maybe someone else has another reason, I'm not aware of.

Water fuel separator is new. Guess I probably need to get check valve.
Outdrive is Volvo duo prop.

I had no warranty. The price range I was in, really isnt one where you can get warranty's. It was this dealer or take a crack at one on Craigslist. Figured my odds where better with this dealer. Maybe I should have just held off, saved and had one built. Hindsight is always 20/20.

well i do not know that you paid . i do not want to know.... But there long blocks on E bay . that are not bad on price . for what it.s worth i have a 330 hp 454 mark 6 long block fresh and a 496 mark 6 454 roller enigne both marine engine. i will stand behind them for work and parts.i build and machined engines every day

Can you email me a price.... cincinnatirepo@zoho.com. Honestly, I'm getting way ahead of myself. But regardless it doesnt hurt to know my options.

I'll likely have the heads checked and magnafluxed. I'd really like to keep those. But for the right price and a lot of issues with the current block, a short block would likely be in order.

BTW Pat. I do a lot of work for a repo company out of Bay City...Liberty Recovery. Know a lot of folks up your way.

I just re-read your post and realized there both long. If you happen across a short block, please let me know. If you feel like it shoot me the prices anyhow.

Thanks.

they can come as short block as well the 330 is all machined just needs to be washed then short blocked . this engine has been bored 030 over with deck plates tru deck with BhJ . balanced with hines machine i have all parts fresh 10/10 crank. rebuild rods with ARP bolts .speedpro new pistons hasting molyrings .496 block will come with new pistons .scat crank scat 7/16 rods and have about 7 454 core block ready to machine all parts new. if you know alot of folks there a good chance one of them may know me. i would have to put a pencil to it .right now i finishing one engine and starting on a 489 short block. i was going to build the 330 in a week or two but at could be short block and ready for pick up in less then a week it been on the back burner but can come to the front any time if needed . or drop off what you have and i will go threw it ?

if it wasn't for Ohio, you two could get this done today------------

if it wasn't for Ohio, you two could get this done today------------

LOL....aint that the truth!