Thread: Harmonic balancer on 454 has 4 timing marks.....

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Originally Posted by rspears

Repoman, seems to me you have a good handle on #1 at TDC now, or close enough to true TDC for the valves on #1 to be closed, and your step-by-step process should give you some more idea about exactly which cylinders have problems, and whether it's valves hanging open or not. It doesn't sound like you're planning to pull the timing chain, so talk about degreeing the cam or setting up the engine is not really of much value for where you are in the process, IMO. Now it may be that whoever installed that hot cam didn't degree it right way back when, but for now you're assuming that the engine was set up right because it ran right at one time. From what I've read you spent some money on what you were told was a good engine from your boat dealer, you're finding that it may not have been quite as good as you were led to believe, and now you're trying to understand just how bad it is before you decide to pull it out and either start fresh, or maybe have that one rebuilt. I would be doing exactly the same thing before I made a decision on several thousand dollars!

If your Saturday is going to be dedicated to this mystery I hope you have your answers early, and can then move on with a decision that gets you back on the water enjoying the boat. Best of luck to you!

Thank you! That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

When I posted that pic of the timing chain marks and was told it was 180 out. I looked though every book and every internet page I could find, with very little hard evidence of the correct marks(everyone differed). So it made me mad. I figured I needed get an outcome at least for next guy who may need to reference this thread for his/her problem.

And for that person, here goes. Please correct me if it's wrong, but this is what I've gathered from everything I've read(which was way too much).

Technically if your pulling your running, stock motor apart, you will find the marks at 12/12.

But if your building a motor 6/12 is right. Most articles will reference these points for easy cam installation, while setting up your timing chain and gears. The article then usually follows the rest of your motor build, before later getting back to installing dist and setting up base timing. It's here where it's likely not even mentioned, but those marks are moved to #1 TDC or 12/12.

Of course this is if your working with stock components, which I'm not. I have no business touching a degree wheel and given my cam specs(which Im still waiting on), who's know how far off I am.

BTW. Rain held me off this morning. So maybe tomorrow.

Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

your making this way to hard here ?? who cares if 12 and 12 is tdc on 1 you do not need to know that. what you need to know if the cam timing is in phase with gear marks and when you degree the cam that the numbers come in to the sheet on the cam card or work out the numbers. honestly i could care less to were the chain is marked to what cylinder is at tdc when there marked as long as the cam is in phased . built a hell of alot of engines not giving it any thought . dumb ? there dumb thing that make engines fail like no piston to valve clearance . rods out of round. the long list of dumb thing. dwelling on this is not helping you. if the cam is in phase . the engine still has one low bank that has nothing to do with wasting time on why the marks should be at 12to 6 for #1 and not #6 you have ether bent valves/pushods on the one bank very will could be bent intake valve .or a wiped cam on one side. hard to think all holes are low on one bank less that head had wrong springs on that bank or adjusted so far down all valves are not closing . if you did wipe the lifters do not force many out if you do you will cut the bores up.

I really didnt intend on making this hard. I posted that pic and was told it was out. I didnt think it was, so when I seen that it might be. Well, I figured that was a lot of my problem. So it was focused on. I mean, I don't wanna go the rest of my life not knowing the proper way to set timing on a 454. While I didnt set this chain. I was always under the impression 12/12 was the final mark with dist in and on #1.

As for using a degree wheel, I have no clue. So maybe I need to switch back to stock cam, or learn to use it, or just hire a pro like you.

Again, I totally agree something is amiss with the 5 low reading cylinders. My intention is to figure that out and then go from their.

Also Pat, if valves and pushrods are bent. Whats my chance that the pistons made it though ok?

12 and 12 is nothing to care about i think i told you your 180 off from were the dots needed to be. not moving cam or chain just to turn the crank 180 to line up the timing dots so the cam was in phase so you could check if the cam was off a tooth or more as for not checking the cam this is were you start with dots 6:00 and 12:00 to see if the cam timing is off . for a cam thats not stock for dumping one in i check the events .no way in hell do i just stab them in seen them off 8 degrees off on the pin .it ran good ? i was thinking it never did ? still its one of them deal s were checking that cam in phase dot to dot .take valve covers off look at tops of rocker studs side to side even with. valve work.seat work . milling . the nuts all should be very close side to side .if the nuts are drove down a lot on that bank some thing is going bad. check by eye or machine ruler if any springs set lower it very well has bent valves

It's nice and sunny now, and I'm finished with the other stuff I wanted to do today. So I may get around to it after all.

That's what I'll do Pat. I line the marks, pull the covers and check the nuts. As well as a leak down. I'll keep posted.

Alright so another update...sort of.

Pulled valve covers and here's what I found:
Good amount of rust on right bank(2-4-6-8). Most around the eight region(cylinder with lowest compression).
Heads had the following info stamped in different places: Merlin / W / NH / 92 / L23 / 1-043
Does have roller rockers(bronze in color, no name I could find).
The pushrod guides have comp cams 4806 stamped on them.
I could see below the intake though the head. There is not roller lifters, so hopefully no roller cam.

I couldn't really perform the leakdown, my generator only got the air compressor to 25 PSI. Then the circuit breaker would blow. I tried it numerous times, but kept doing the same thing. Obviously there isn't electric close to the boat. I went ahead and put 25 into the #1 since I had the tester screw in and #1 TDC. It took the 25 PSI slowly leaked down, but I couldn't feel or hear it coming out anywhere.

I wanted to get pics, but I sat my phone down on a wet surface. The phones camera lens fogged and the pics were bad.

I figure something out on the generator and get back to it tomorrow hopefully.

I also did do any eyeball test on the stud heights. They all appeared close on each bank. I took a straight edge with me, the most I could see was maybe a quarter inch difference, really most where within an eighth though. I couldnt really tell on the springs, I was hoping to get a pic for ya Pat.

I did see some scarring on the outside of the #1 topside rocker(bronze color wore off, bare metal shows) . It looked as if it was rubbing the valve cover. I didnt see anything on the valve cover though. Also most rockers have the same type scarring on the around the stud and lock nut. I assume that is likely normal. But I don't know, you guys tell me.

good roller have there name stamp in them gold mostly are crane but comp sells gold rockers harland sharps are red bronze but there knock offs that look alike them . the numbers do not sound right they should be cast in side the head like 30040 oval 30620 rec ports but heads could be a very early set of heads

Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

good roller have there name stamp in them gold mostly are crane but comp sells gold rockers harland sharps are red bronze but there knock offs that look alike them . the numbers do not sound right they should be cast in side the head like 30040 oval 30620 rec ports but heads could be a very early set of heads

I was in the process of searching them when I seen your post. Here a link to what I found:
World Products - MERLIN Rectangular Port Iron Heads

Originally Posted by repoman3809

I also did do any eyeball test on the stud heights. They all appeared close on each bank. I took a straight edge with me, the most I could see was maybe a quarter inch difference, really most where within an eighth though. I couldnt really tell on the springs, I was hoping to get a pic for ya Pat.

I did see some scarring on the outside of the #1 topside rocker(bronze color wore off, bare metal shows) . It looked as if it was rubbing the valve cover. I didnt see anything on the valve cover though. Also most rockers have the same type scarring on the around the stud and lock nut. I assume that is likely normal. But I don't know, you guys tell me.

well they can get marked up around the poly nuts if your not care full . the rocker rubbing is common deal with most all roller rockers were the body is wide and cast covers they can rub. rolling the rocker body on a belt sander is a common it hurts nothing to do this .some makers of roller rockers now make two rockers out of the set that are rounded off

Originally Posted by repoman3809

I was in the process of searching them when I seen your post. Here a link to what I found:
World Products - MERLIN Rectangular Port Iron Heads

them heads are not very good for a mild 454 would work better with a smaller port have to know more about the engine race fule only engine the boat as what you do with it .but were did this thing rpm out at ?. yep the last time i had a set of there heads i had to call them .they did not go by there part number on older heads and thats what i posted they go by id numbers now they put the part numbers on the new heads ?? what the hell ? they can not make it easy

What do you make of this. There was some super white substance on inside each head. Mostly on top of the rocker studs and inside of valve cover. The oil is fine, the water in the block was fine(remember I pulled apart the front of motor. I could see down in the oil pan and obviously in the water jackets). The stuff was just in the heads, it doesnt look like milky oil, more like some type of assembly lube.

From some other websites I found. It said those heads are intended for marine use only.

Also what you make of the rust?

well that 345 head has been used in boats. i had two sets some that were reworked for off shore but to say it a marine head only? i can buy that head under part number 3063b . that head has a 2.300 valve if the bottom end has a stock piston them the valves could of hit the pistons .white stuff ? hard to say with out seeing it could be lubeaplate ?

Almost looks and feels like crisco.

but to say it a marine head only?

I should say it says intended for Marine.

Originally Posted by repoman3809

Almost looks and feels like crisco.

ran over a sperm whale ?

Originally Posted by repoman3809

Almost looks and feels like crisco.


I should say it says intended for Marine.

no not at all there made were you would use a big cc iron head .they are to big for your marine use if you just have a 030 454 there not to big for a 540 in street use or marine use. if you want a iron head the heads may come with inconel ex valves that would put it in to a marine use or a Nos .. blower or turbo use water or land. there nothing done to the iron head it self to make it only marine that i know of .but there are alum heads that are built for marine use and are coated for salt water . i know of custom merlins in 345 built heads for off shore racing and have custom valves sizes.i just threw out a box of inconel valve out for them. i can not talk about them on a open forum